Author Topic: Fewness Of Catholics Who Are Saved (Read 4404 times)

Trinity · « **Reply #2 on:** October 15, 2007, 05:54:32 AM »

I am very surprised that this subject hasn't roused the populace. I've been wondering what constitutes worldliness. I'd like to see that pinned down so we can know if we are guilty of it or not.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #3 on:** October 15, 2007, 11:40:41 AM »

Not to digress in any way, but there are those who hold an opinion contrary to St. Leonard - and neither St. Leonard nor those who hold a contrary opinion should be held as incorrect. We simply do not - and cannot - know.

dust-7 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 15, 2007, 05:44:38 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Not to digress in any way, but there are those who hold an opinion contrary to St. Leonard - and neither St. Leonard nor those who hold a contrary opinion should be held as incorrect. We simply do not - and cannot - know.

One knows in his treatise on The Mass that this is the history of a Saint - something one doesn't quite get from Alzog or Brueck, etc. St. Leonard writes as one with understanding.

Few go to Heaven. Few go to Purgatory. Most to hell. It's how people want it. And in confronting all those contradictions, then, between conscience and fact, were see play-acting and fantasy everywhere we look, and not on even stage or the screen, big or small.

JoanScholastica · « **Reply #5 on:** October 15, 2007, 10:06:37 PM »

MichaelSolimanto · « **Reply #6 on:** October 16, 2007, 02:44:25 PM »

What is known is that the majority is not saved. How many of that is not quantitative known. I have read St. Teresa of Avila, St. Louis de Montford, et al who have used the same # of 1 in 10,000 is saved.

In a way it makes sense. Go outside your home and ask yourself how many of your neighbors are preparing to see God as God wishes to be seen. You will realize how quickly how few are saved, including in our own ranks from our lack of detachment from the world.

Trinity · « **Reply #7 on:** October 16, 2007, 03:27:57 PM »

Hmmm. Now I can't find that exact one, but here are some others.

http://catholicyouth.freeservers.com/saints/dominic_savio.htm

http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=43

http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1318

And this appears to be a small book on him. http://www.donboscowest.org/saints/savio/savio_frameset.htm

JoanScholastica · « **Reply #8 on:** October 17, 2007, 12:41:40 AM »

Hey, thanks for that!

I'll try to check it out soon...

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #9 on:** October 18, 2007, 12:58:56 PM »

Quote from: MichaelSolimanto

What is known is that the majority is not saved.

And where has Holy Mother Church pronounced definitively upon this matter?

Are we here speaking of the majority of men, the majority of adult Catholics, what?

As for my belief, I would not even begin to speculate upon such a matter. I do not even know how many men will be breathing when the end of this day arrives. As to their (or my own) judgment, these matters "are a great deep", sounded only by God.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #10 on:** October 18, 2007, 01:05:14 PM »

Quote from: dust-7

One knows in his treatise on The Mass that this is the history of a Saint - something one doesn't quite get from Alzog or Brueck, etc. St. Leonard writes as one with understanding.

I realize dust is not here to respond, but the facts that St. Leonard is a Saint, and that he wrote most powerfully about Holy Mass, do not actually render his opinion on this matter certain in any way. There are other Saints and holy men who hold contrary opinions - and each makes a reasonable case for his position.

Quote

Few go to Heaven. Few go to Purgatory. Most to hell.

Again, where have we seen anything approaching a definitive statement to this effect? Eh, that would be NOWHERE.

This may be the reality when all is said and done, but I have a hard enough time trying to figure out the best way to order one single day upon this earth, let alone speculating upon the eternal fate of other men.

MichaelSolimanto · « **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2007, 09:59:09 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote from: MichaelSolimanto
What is known is that the majority is not saved.

And where has Holy Mother Church pronounced definitively upon this matter?

I didn't know Our Lord didn't count. That's fascinating. Our Lord mentioned the paths and how "few" that are saved and how "many" will be lost. Read Matt 7:13, 14 for reference. The Church cannot pronounce a numerical quantitative statement on the damned, but there is moral unanimity amongst theology that the majority of humanity is not saved.

Now if you have theologians who believe contrariwise please show us or you have NOTHING to hang your hat.

Kephapaulos · « **Reply #12 on:** October 23, 2007, 11:01:01 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Not to digress in any way, but there are those who hold an opinion contrary to St. Leonard - and neither St. Leonard nor those who hold a contrary opinion should be held as incorrect. We simply do not - and cannot - know.

Who or which saints hold the contrary opinion? And does the contrary opinion say that most souls out of all human beings and out of all Catholics instead will have been saved?

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #13 on:** October 23, 2007, 12:23:42 PM »

Quote from: MichaelSolimanto

I didn't know Our Lord didn't count. That's fascinating.

If the quote is so clear, Mike, provide it, demonstrating that he is clearly referring to salvation and damnation.

Quote

The Church cannot pronounce a numerical quantitative statement on the damned

Why not, if it is so "clear" a matter? She could at least say, "many/few", "majority/minority", etc., right?

She has not said such things.

Quote

...there is moral unanimity amongst theology that the majority of humanity is not saved.

This is easy to claim, harder to prove.

Quote

Now if you have theologians who believe contrariwise please show us or you have NOTHING to hang your hat.

Actually, I believe the ball is in your court. You must prove that there is, according to your claim, a "moral unanimity" among theologians on this matter. You might want to start by defining what constitutes "moral unanimity". Thank you.

Just to throw out one theologian who holds a contrary opinion - Fr. Frederick Faber, who is neither a theological slouch nor a softy.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #14 on:** October 23, 2007, 12:27:27 PM »

Quote from: Kephapaulos

And does the contrary opinion say that most souls out of all human beings and out of all Catholics instead will have been saved?

There is actually a wide variety of opinions - as one might expect. Some say the majority of Catholics will be saved. Others say the majority of the human race. There are some who believe as St. Leonard does, while some see an even bleaker picture.

It is not so simple a matter, nor does Holy Church herself hold it to be such.

One day, we will all know - and I pray that I am among the sheep, despite the undeniable fact that I often behave more like one of the goats.