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Author Topic: Fame should be deserved  (Read 2005 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Fame should be deserved
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2021, 03:49:05 PM »
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  • At the root of some, not all, of these attacks on Marshall there appears to be a great deal of envy. To those who are green with envy I say, if what he has done is so easy, just do it yourself.

    I couldn't do what Taylor Marshall is doing, because I can't be a compromiser, sellout, controlled opposition, or ignorant about Vatican II. I can't talk to the (much larger) Indult or "conservative Catholic" world like they're my people.

    I can't get all excited when Pope Francis says something less heretical than usual.

    There's a reason why all the 100% redpilled, well-educated, experienced Trads don't choose to wade into the Conciliar waters and make a big splash, as a two-eyed king in the land of the blind.

    Just for starters, you can't hide what you know. If someone like me (who has more truth than the average Novus Ordite can handle) tried to grow a following in the Conciliar world, people would be overwhelmed or scandalized. I'd be called anti-s**itic and so forth. So I'd either have to actively compromise the truth, or somehow forget various truths in my mind. Nevermind that all the truths are more-or-less connected.

    Bishop Williamson, and those who support him, are my people. Principled Catholics, who understand the gravity of the Crisis in the Church which started with Vatican II, who have been fighting Modernism for years, are my people.

    There aren't as many of them, and even the ones who exist are poorer, because they are more principled and don't have well-paying jobs where they have to compromise their Faith. And they have more children.

    So those who cater to "Trads" won't have as big a following, nor have much money (donations, support). But I say: So be it.

    I can't be a Judas, not even for 30 pieces of silver a week.
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    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Fame should be deserved
    « Reply #31 on: June 14, 2021, 03:54:14 PM »
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  • I don't follow.  I don't see how you can mix-match moral obligations with civil rights.  Outside of a catholic society, civil rights/laws don't have anything to do with morality.

    If a civil law is just, and especially if it is based on the natural law, it pertains to morality.

    But what I meant by a negative civil right, is an evil that the state does not have the coercive power to punish or suppress.  

    You agreed that an anti-Catholic country cannot suppress false religions and/or religious errors, and you were quite correct to do so.  Well, what follows from this is that in a non-Catholic country, the citizens necessarily have a negative civil right to "religious liberty" - that is, they cannot be punished or forbidden for committing these evil acts, since the state has no coercive power over such matters.
     
    Let me know if you agree or disagree.



    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Fame should be deserved
    « Reply #32 on: June 14, 2021, 04:24:00 PM »
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  • I agree; there’s a bad taste in my mouth from trafficking in the faith which smacks of simony.  That’s another reason it should be the domain of clerics, many/most of whom have to abide by certain standards of poverty.  We don’t need the Catholic equivalent of those Prot televangelist, most of whom live scandalously opulent lifestyles.
    I tend to agree that one should not make money off of the Faith; however, I question whether these popular bloggers are the "Catholic equivalent".    

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fame should be deserved
    « Reply #33 on: June 14, 2021, 04:49:48 PM »
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  • Quote
    But what I meant by a negative civil right, is an evil that the state does not have the coercive power to punish or suppress.
    In a non-catholic country, morality doesn't exist, so the state has ANY coercive power it can take from its citizens.  Any law is possible.
    .

    Quote
    You agreed that an anti-Catholic country cannot suppress false religions and/or religious errors, and you were quite correct to do so.
    I say they wouldn't, not that they couldn't.  The Middle East isn't a catholic country, but they have morality laws.  If any state has a lot of power, they can make any laws they want.
    .

    Quote
    Well, what follows from this is that in a non-Catholic country, the citizens necessarily have a negative civil right to "religious liberty" - that is, they cannot be punished or forbidden for committing these evil acts, since the state has no coercive power over such matters.
    Again, in the absence of catholic social order, a non-catholic country *could* forbid ALL religious liberty (catholic and non).  They can do whatever they want...if they have such a degree of power.
    .
    In the case of secular laws, the debate over morality/doctrine is a waste of time.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fame should be deserved
    « Reply #34 on: June 14, 2021, 05:00:10 PM »
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  • Exactly right.  Now let's take this one step further.  

    If a non-Catholic country, which will almost always be an anti-catholic country, does not have the right to suppress false religions or religious errors, does that not result in the citizens of this anti-Catholic country having a negative civil right not to be prohibited from practicing a false religion and/or spreading religious errors?

    We all agree that no one has a moral right "to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall considers true," (Syllabus of Pius IX), but if the civil authority in an anti-Catholic country is not permitted to suppress religious errors, it follows logically that the citizens of that non-Catholic country will have the civil right not to be prohibited from committing that particular evil.  Do you agree?  

    You've lost me with your double negative.  Which evil would these Catholics have the civil right not to be prohibited from committing?

    Of which evil do you speak?

    Catholics have a right to profess and practice their faith; non-Catholics do not.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fame should be deserved
    « Reply #35 on: June 14, 2021, 05:03:59 PM »
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  • If a civil law is just, and especially if it is based on the natural law, it pertains to morality.

    But what I meant by a negative civil right, is an evil that the state does not have the coercive power to punish or suppress.  

    You agreed that an anti-Catholic country cannot suppress false religions and/or religious errors, and you were quite correct to do so.  Well, what follows from this is that in a non-Catholic country, the citizens necessarily have a negative civil right to "religious liberty" - that is, they cannot be punished or forbidden for committing these evil acts, since the state has no coercive power over such matters.
     
    Let me know if you agree or disagree.

    I'm still not following you.  Perhaps you should just state your point instead of attempting to employ the Socratic method.

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Fame should be deserved
    « Reply #36 on: June 14, 2021, 11:48:01 PM »
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  • You've lost me with your double negative.  Which evil would these Catholics have the civil right not to be prohibited from committing?

    Not Catholic, but non-Catholics.  Non-Catholics would have the negative civil right not to be prevented from false religion and/or spreading religious errors. Those are the evils I was referring to.   See below for the reason why they would have this negative right.


    Quote
    Catholics have a right to profess and practice their faith; non-Catholics do not.

    Right on both accounts. But the civil authorities in a non-Catholics state lack the coercive power needed to suppress false religions or religious errors.  Consequently, the citizens of a non-Catholic country (such as America) cannot be forbidden by the state from practicing a false religion and/or from spreading religious errors.

    The necessary consequence of a secular state that refuses to be joined to the Church, is a negative civil right to "religious liberty" for its citizens, since it (the civil authorities) lack the coercive authority needed to suppress religious errors and false worship.



    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Fame should be deserved
    « Reply #37 on: June 15, 2021, 12:13:04 AM »
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  • Pope Leo XIII, Immortale Dei: “The Almighty, therefore, has given the charge of the human race to two powers, the ecclesiastical and the civil, the one being set over divine, and the other over human, things. Each in its kind is supreme, each has fixed limits within which it is contained, limits which are defined by the nature and special object of the province of each, so that there is, we may say, an orbit traced out within which the action of each is brought into play by its own native right. …  One of the two [civil power] has for its proximate and chief object the well-being of this mortal life; the other [ecclesiastical power], the everlasting joys of heaven. Whatever, therefore in things human is of a sacred character, whatever belongs either of its own nature or by reason of the end to which it is referred, to the salvation of souls, or to the worship of God, is subject to the power and judgment of the Church. Whatever is to be ranged under the civil and political order is rightly subject to the civil authority.

    The civil authority has no power over things pertaining to “the salvation of souls, or the worship of God.”   Civil authority can only act with coercive power in religious matter when it is acting as an arm of the Church, as an agent of the Church’s coercive power.

    A non-Catholic state lacks any coercive power to regulate matters pertaining to religion and therefore lacks the coercive power needed to suppress errors in matters of religion.  The necessary result is that the citizens of a non-Catholic state cannot be forbidden from practicing a false religion or spreading religious errors.

    This is what Dignitatis Humanae teaches.  Nowhere does it teach that a Catholic state is unable to suppress false worship if it is acting as an arm of the ecclesiastical power.  DH speaks only of the civil authority, qua civil authority.  What this shows is that DH is simply repeating the teaching of Leo XIII and only has the appearance of contradicting tradition.   Why has this not been clarified when it would have been so easy for the power that be to do so?