Author Topic: extra ecclesiam nulla salus in PV2 church (Read 1160 times)

hollingsworth · « **on:** December 02, 2007, 12:47:08 PM »

I am pondering a matter now for which I have no answers. Most traditional Catholics will agree, at least generally, to the dogma that outside the Church, there is no salvation. But I have to wonder, in the present state of the Church, which teaches a false ecuмenism and encourages religious liberty, how Catholics subscribing to these errors can themselves be saved. The salvation of the great majority of Catholics, holding these teachings might be in great danger, wouldn't you think?

Matthew · « **Reply #1 on:** December 04, 2007, 02:18:15 PM »

Well, I'm sure that 600 years ago when priests were very ignorant about the Faith, the laypeople were in much material heresy as well.

The Catholic Faith is what saves -- the Catholic doctrine is what helps us to get to heaven, and with as little trouble as possible.

As I've said before, even if it were possible for a woman to be in "invincible ignorance" about the sin of Abortion, she would still bear ALL THE SCARS AND SUFFERINGS of a woman who has killed her own child -- mortal sin or not. Now I believe that a sin like abortion -- which is so embeded in the Natural Law and woman's very nature -- can't be matter for invincible ignorance.

But apply that to many other sins, and you'll see what I mean. (Pre-marital sex, for instance). The consequences will be there, whether the person commits mortal sin, venial sin, or no sin.

Following the Catholic doctrine will NOT ONLY help us get to heaven, but will give us the best possible life on this earth. To experience true peace, one must do God's will. The Catholic Church is God's Will incarnate.

It's ironic that by being truly happy on earth (peace of soul), we get to enjoy happiness forever, and that those destined for Hell are already tormented in mind and soul here on earth.

Matthew

hollingsworth · « **Reply #2 on:** December 04, 2007, 03:47:35 PM »

I don't want to seem to make like of extra ecclesiam.. However, if what you summarize is absolutely true, viz.

Quote

The Catholic Faith is what saves -- the Catholic doctrine is what helps us to get to heaven, and with as little trouble as possible.

Then, for all intents and purposes, the visible, organized structure with its pope, its hierarchy- cardinals, bishops and congregations might play little or no present and practical role in the salvation scheme. After all, we do have the Catholic Faith as contained in the ancient teaching Magisterium of the Church, which, I believe, you would say is enough. Of course, the sedevacantists are forced to say it is enough. But then I would be tempted to change the wording a bit. I don't really know any Latin, but it might come out something like this, if I understand your bottom line correctly:

Extra fides, nulla salus

hollingsworth · « **Reply #3 on:** December 04, 2007, 03:48:35 PM »

Quote

I don't want to seem to make like of extra ecclesiam..

Sorry, I meant "make light of."

Matthew · « **Reply #4 on:** December 04, 2007, 03:52:26 PM »

Well, those who attend SSPX chapels, as well as sedevacantists, are both outside the "normal Church structure" -- we don't attend our local parishes.

As St. Athanasius said, "They only have stone buildings. We have the Faith" or something to that effect.

But for me, it's only because attending the local parish would be dangerous to my faith -- which is something to be closely protected and cherished.

I, and most others I know, want firmly to be a member of the Church Christ founded -- and we are. But we must distance ourselves from the error of Modernism (and other errors) and so we sadly watch what is going on in the Church hierarchy (and parish churches) today.

But we have no desire to leave the Church, have never left, and would be the last ones to leave!

When you're willing to undergo scorn for the Faith, you're not exactly the type to leave it! Besides, we're taking the harder road. If someone can lift 800 lbs, I'm sure he can lift 25 lbs. "He that can do what is difficult, can do what is easy."

If I can drive 1/2 hour to Mass once a week, I'm sure it would be easier for me to walk to my local Parish for daily Mass. If that was the better thing to do, you better believe I'd be doing it -- no matter what anyone said or thought of me.

In Christ,

Matthew

Kephapaulos · « **Reply #5 on:** December 04, 2007, 05:50:58 PM »

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus is perhaps the most neglected Catholic dogma now. It is because of either explicit or implicit denial of it today among most everyone in the world, including many Catholics, people just don't care about wanting to please God anymore in the way He wills. In the Vatican II docuмent Dignitatis Humanae, you have right there the taking away of the truth from public and civil life. Even before that docuмent came out, there was Lumen Gentium, which has the ambiguous "subsistit in."

JoanScholastica · « **Reply #6 on:** December 05, 2007, 06:52:47 PM »

Quote from: hollingsworth

The salvation of the great majority of Catholics, holding these teachings might be in great danger, wouldn't you think?

Why? Are you talking about us, traditionalists? We are inside the Catholic Church and doing what God demands from us.

hollingsworth · « **Reply #7 on:** December 06, 2007, 01:52:16 PM »

Quote

Why? Are you talking about us, traditionalists? We are inside the Catholic Church and doing what God demands from us.

Joan,
I have no doubt that we traditional Catholics are "inside the Catholic Church." Whether, in the true Church, all of us are doing what God demands from us is another matter. But certainly, outside of that true Church there is no salvation. But there is another entity, which, for lack of a better phrase, I would characterize as a 'parallel church.' It is today numerically far larger than the Church you and I claim. I am tempted, certain exceptions aside, to change the wording of extra ecclesiam to read 'Inside the parallel church, there is no salvation.'
One of the major problems I wrestle regarding these two churches, i.e. the true Church and the parallel church, is the question of the papacy. Both of these churches lay claim to the same pope.