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Author Topic: Extended family dress immodestly  (Read 907 times)

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Re: Extended family dress immodestly
« Reply #25 on: Today at 04:06:57 PM »
It is a fact that we become like who we associate with.

It does not matter how “strong” we are in the Faith or in morals.

If we are truly strong in these two areas, those immoral people will have no interest in associating with us and will naturally distance or excommunicate us from the family. I know from experience.
We become like our friends. OP is not friends with these people. He doesn't like them or their lives. He doesn't want to be around them. Unless he is tempted to impurity or some other sin by his relatives poor behavior, it's basically a non-issue. 

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Remaining in the presence of those who sin is not only about being in the occasion of sin, but approving of their behaviour. It is a scandal whether those people perceive it to be or not.
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It's definitely not that simple. For one, it isn't at all clear that people who are habituated in immodest dress actually sin by dressing immodestly. You bring up St Alphonsus, surely you are aware of the fact that he teaches if a person lives under immodest customs that their own immodesty is slightly sinful, or maybe not sinful at all. 
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For two, being in the presence of another's sin does not by the fact issue approval. And I challenge you to produce any moral theologian who teaches this. If mere presence was the issue, obviously Christ Himself could not have eaten with sinners.
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One story St. Alphonsus Liguori related of this type of temptation occurring, was of a young girl who repented on her deathbed of impure acts with a young man. She suddenly received the inspiration from the devil (which she thought was from God) to invite that man over that he too may convert. He came, she saw him and she fell immediately and ended up damning herself. 

We may learn from this even if our personal situation is not exactly this way. 

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Temptations of impurity are to be fled from rather than grappled with. If OP has a history of kissing his cousins, or finds his lower passions enflamed by his relatives' immodest dress, then the advice applies. Otherwise it just doesn't. 

Re: Extended family dress immodestly
« Reply #26 on: Today at 05:09:53 PM »
All I have done is give Catholic principles (which I will continue to do below), I have not judged nor applied it to the OP's personal situation. That is up to him. I am not qualified for that.

Nine ways of being an accessory to the sins of others:

1. By counsel
2. By command
3. By consent
4. By provocation
5. By praise or flattery
6. By concealment
7. By partaking
8. By silence
9. By defence of the ill done

Bishop George Hay on the sin of scandal, from his work "The Devout Christian", Volume II, p. 250
https://archive.org/details/worksofbishophay04hayuoft/page/n261/mode/2up

Q. 47. How must innocent people behave to prevent their being corrupted by those who give scandal ?

A. (i.) They ought above all things to fly from them, and avoid their company. The old inhabitants of Canaan were a most wicked people: when God brought His people out of Egypt to place them in Canaan, to preserve them from danger, and at the same time to punish the crimes of the Canaanites, He ordered His people to destroy them entirely, lest they should be a scandal to them: "Thou shalt not enter into a league with them; ... let them not dwell in thy land, lest perhaps they make thee sin against Me, if thou serve their gods, which undoubtedly will be a scandal to thee," Exod. xxiii. 33.

And in fact, their not observing this order proved their ruin; for "they did not destroy the nations of which the Lord spoke to them; and they were mingled among the heathens, and learned their works, and served their idols, and it became a stumbling-block to them," Ps. cv. 34. Behold the fatal consequences of bad company, and the necessity of flying from it; for "evil communications corrupt good manners," i Cor. xv. 33. On this account the wise man says, "Be not a friend to an angry man, and do not walk with a furious man, lest perhaps thou learn his ways, and take a scandal to thy soul," Prov. xxii. 24. St Paul also gives the same orders: "Mark those that cause dissensions and offences" (that is, scandals) "contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned, and avoid them," Rom. xvi. 17.

And Christ Himself ordains the same: "If your right hand or right eye scandalise you" — that is, if the person who scandalises us be as dear or useful as your right hand or right eye, no matter — "cut off the hand," and " pluck out the eye, and cast it from you;" and He immediately adds the reason : "For it is better with one eye or one hand to enter into heaven, than having both to be cast into hellfire," Mat. xviii.

Happy would it be for many modest young women if they observed this rule, and fled the company of those who offer the least indecency or speak an immodest word in their presence, looking upon them as agents of hell, angels of Satan, and a scandal to their souls. (2.) They ought also to have a great love for the law of God, procure instruction in it, and meditate upon it frequently.

One great cause of the ruin of souls is ignorance of their duty. When they fall into bad company, they are easily persuaded to sin, and to believe, from what they see and hear, that the evil is not so great as they thought. The only remedy here is to know well what the law of God requires; for "much peace have they that love thy law, and there is no stumbling-block to them," Ps. cxviii. 165. (3.) Fervent and frequent prayer to God is also most necessary for the preservation of their innocence; for as none but God can enable us to avoid and escape the numberless snares laid for our souls, so it is chiefly by prayer that we can obtain His protection against them. The royal prophet was very sensible of this, and therefore prayed thus: "The proud have hid a net for me, they have stretched out cords for a snare, they have laid for me a stumbling-block by the wayside. I said to the Lord, Thou art my God ; . . . give me not up, O Lord, from my desire to the wicked; they have plotted against me, do not thou forsake me, lest they should triumph," Ps. cxxxix. 6.

.......

"He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:37)

"He that loveth danger shall perish in it." (Ecclesiasticus 3:27)

One must have a proportionate reason for frequenting an occasion of sin, and the occasion cannot be proximate, but must be remote.

It has always been customary for Catholics to regard immoral behaviour in others as an occasion of sin for EVERYONE, not this absurd, modern theory of "but me I strong enough, trust me!".

Modernists accuse the ancient Catholic Church of not associating sufficiently with sinners. Remember that LGBTQ+ dinner Francis had? How did that work out?

Bringing people to God must always presuppose that such people are DISPOSED to some extent, to receive the Word of God. Our Lord was silent with those that were indisposed.

Hence, it would be imprudent and foolish to interrupt a meeting a man is having with a prostitute to instruct them on chastity.

I use an extreme example to illustrate a point. There is a certain level of obstinacy we all know is too far to do anything practical about.

Our Lord was the Saviour of the world, not a frail human being prone to falling into sin. Moreover, He associated with those that left Him converted in heart. Why? Because He is God and ruler of all hearts. He was also a King who had the duty to show His dominion over others, to instruct the wicked and put them in their place as He did with the Pharisee. That is not to be imitated by the average layman.



Missionary labours, moreover, are for the clergy.



Catholics of old used to bring immoral family members to a priest, they didn't try to help convert them, to "evangelize" them like  a Protestant pastor, because they had the humility to acknowledge that they were NOT QUALIFIED for the job. Immoral family members historically were also denounced and not associated with.

Our duty as laymen and laywomen is to be virtuous and tell the truth for the honour of God, remain faithful to our duties of state in life, and to preserve ourselves from the unnecessary occasions of sin.


Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: Extended family dress immodestly
« Reply #27 on: Today at 09:29:04 PM »
Yes, while that may (or may not) be true, I agree with everything MD said in her post above.

It's just like Fr. Wathen put it in the last minutes of that video I posted above, you need to watch yourself, which is always very difficult to do successfully when one *puts themself* in a position of compromise. In your case, you're putting yourself in a position of compromise with your extended family because you hope to be a good example for your younger niece and nephews - who have other, full-time bad influences from your extended family, school, friends, TV, websites, etc. IOW, once they go home, they're fully submerged back in the mire.

It's a sticky situation, one that is better for you, *IMO*, by them knowing why you can have nothing to do with them - which is easy to say, but not usually easy to do.
I don't see them that often, either on holidays for family lunch, or for birthdays, or if the grandparents are minding their grandchildren. If I were to hypothetically never talk to them again wouldn't that scandalise, I am not trying to be like a mormon of one of those cults... I will add I am not tempted by my own family in regards to how they dress, I just think that their manners/dress is not pleasing to God but at the same time they secular so they have other issues that can be bigger.

Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: Extended family dress immodestly
« Reply #28 on: Today at 09:31:04 PM »
Unless one's relatives are an occasion of sin or scandal, it seems generally unwise to cut them off in any formal way.

It's natural enough to drift away from people, even relatives, with whom nothing is shared in common. I see no problem there. But you seem to be talking about some kind of formal separation where you announce to everyone you'll have nothing to do with them for reasons a, b, and c.

What is the occasion for sin or scandal? Do you lust after your female relatives? Are you tempted to blaspheme by their irreverence? Are you tempted to cohabitate or commit adultery by their sins in those regards?

 Or is it more that these gatherings are awkward and uncomfortable because their sins offend your piety? If it's the latter you can definitely justify minimal contact but you have a point re: being the only Catholic influence in their life. That's not something that should be given up without serious justification.

Minimal contact seems fine, advisable even. But unless their behavior imperils your own soul I don't see the justification for a formal policy of no contact.
Thank you for this comment. I have no occasions of sin with any of my family members, I just don't like how they dress/talk. If anything the biggest problem would be those family members who do cohabitate but wouldn't care if I rebuked them (not that I am in authority over them in any way) so I worry about giving occasion of sin by omission.

Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: Extended family dress immodestly
« Reply #29 on: Today at 09:33:06 PM »
It is a fact that we become like who we associate with.

It does not matter how “strong” we are in the Faith or in morals.

If we are truly strong in these two areas, those immoral people will have no interest in associating with us and will naturally distance or excommunicate us from the family. I know from experience.

Remaining in the presence of those who sin is not only about being in the occasion of sin, but approving of their behaviour. It is a scandal whether those people perceive it to be or not.

We have a duty towards God first, and the other person’s salvation is last in the order of charity.

The devil often uses the thought “but you could save their soul” as a temptation under the guise of an act of virtue.

We think so highly of ourselves to believe we cannot be influenced. We are so blind spiritually as St. Louis de Montfort says, that these changes often take place imperceptibly.

One story St. Alphonsus Liguori related of this type of temptation occurring, was of a young girl who repented on her deathbed of impure acts with a young man. She suddenly received the inspiration from the devil (which she thought was from God) to invite that man over that he too may convert. He came, she saw him and she fell immediately and ended up damning herself.

We may learn from this even if our personal situation is not exactly this way.
That example is very different, that young woman put herself in the occasion of sin, this is not the same as shunning-not shunning everyone around you.