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Offline Matthew

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Ever heard an idiot call the Bible a book of fables?
« on: March 10, 2019, 09:18:53 AM »
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  • Atheists of course will grasp at anything, any nonsense, to convince themselves (and others) that there is no God, and that they can therefore "do what thou wilt". It's all a big excuse to justify their sin. Usually Sixth and Ninth at that.

    One thing I see in comment sections and other locations populated by worldlings: the idea that the Bible and/or Jesus Himself was nothing more than a fable or a fantasy story, a work of fiction.

    There are obvious problems with this assertion.

    The simple, unprofessional version of the argument goes something like this:

    "Ok then, Mr. Atheist, you go ahead and write a great work of fiction and see how many people you can convince it's real. Let's see how many converts you get. I bet if the State persecuted your new religion, you'd get even *less* converts."

    All they can/will say is:

    "I don't wanna. Besides, I'm not a jerk to take advantage of the ignorance of fools, so I wouldn't ever try."

    Likely story. How convenient. Then why hasn't a single atheist in all of history ever tried to duplicate the success of Christianity? You can't tell me ALL atheists have high morality and wouldn't start a false religion to aggrandize themselves. But even if 100% of atheists had awesome morality, why wouldn't at least ONE of them create a false religion for altruistic reasons, to prove their point and demonstrate how Christianity might have gotten started?


    Some points to consider:

    1. The Bible hasn't changed it's content since the beginning. No one can show earlier manuscripts that were different, much less "simpler", than the content of the Bibles we have today.

    2. The facts put forward in the Gospels would have been recent history to many readers. There were older people still alive "who were there". Any inaccuracies, errors, etc. would have been slammed and disproven at the outset and the religion would have gained no traction. People don't uproot their lives, make great sacrifices (even death) for a good fantasy book. Would you endure torture and death for Harry Potter?

    3. Ditto for Our Lord's miracles. His mortal enemies at the time -- the Jews -- wouldn't dare deny his miracles, much less Jesus' existence. The best they could do (in their livid hatred) was to say that ALL THOSE MIRACLES were done by demonic power. Wow. Just wow. Doesn't that say a lot? When your enemies' best argument is that your miracles were from a bad source? Doesn't that imply that the miracles took place?

    4. If the Bible were fiction, then it was created by the greatest man who ever lived, and deserves study for that reason alone. Just for starters, the books of Proverbs, Ecclesiasticus, etc. seem to understand Human nature to an extraordinary degree -- almost what you would expect from the Creator/Designer of human beings! No other book, religious or otherwise, has ever demonstrated such a penetrating insight on Human Beings and the human condition.

    5. But as a matter of fact, the Bible has proven to be reliable and true whenever historical, political, or geographical data in the Bible is "fact checked". The Bible has been treated and used as a historical document many times over the centuries, with good results.

    6. The Bible wasn't written all at once, coming out of nowhere like a new Harry Potter novel. The many books of the Bible were written and "released" over many centuries. I'm sure there is plenty of historical evidence for the books of the Old Testament existing long before the time of Christ.
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    Offline alaric

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    Re: Ever heard an idiot call the Bible a book of fables?
    « Reply #1 on: March 10, 2019, 12:31:09 PM »
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  • For the sake of conversation and addressing your statements from the atheists viewpoint (since you probably have none reading your forum anyway), I will play the devil's advocate. (No pun intended).

    Quote
    Atheists of course will grasp at anything, any nonsense, to convince themselves (and others) that there is no God,
    Of course, they will say the same thing about theists belief there is a God.

    Quote
    and that they can therefore "do what thou wilt". It's all a big excuse to justify their sin. Usually Sixth and Ninth at that.
    Well let's be honest, there are plenty of christians and religious who play that card as well. Matter of fact, some of the worst sinners I know are religious. Of course they all believe they can confess their guilt away or jesus has magically "saved" them from any and all future sin, so they basically can sin away with no eternal repercussions. And yes, the 6th and 9th are biggies with these idiots.

    Quote
    One thing I see in comment sections and other locations populated by worldlings: the idea that the Bible and/or Jesus Himself was nothing more than a fable or a fantasy story, a work of fiction.
    According to many men of the cloth, it actually is these days. Of course, all these self-appointed theologians and babbling, bible-thumping  morons who love to quote the bible totally out of context or proper exegesis, doesn't really help much against people who do believe the bible is a fairy tale.

    Quote
    "Ok then, Mr. Atheist, you go ahead and write a great work of fiction and see how many people you can convince it's real. Let's see how many converts you get. I bet if the State persecuted your new religion, you'd get even *less* converts."
    Mr Atheist will probably ask you if you ever heard of all the other great works of fiction that convinced many people were real in which throngs of people converted to, even after being persecuted by their state or powers that be at the time of said fictional writings were being created.....like the Koran, Vedas and Joesph Smith's "tablets". I don't know, but maybe I'm wrong in addressing your statement with these examples. But it's not like people have not  been snookerd by a bunch of BS writings that uneducated peasants bought into and the govt clearly tried to suppress. Just saying.

    Quote
    All they can/will say is:

    "I don't wanna. Besides, I'm not a jerk to take advantage of the ignorance of fools, so I wouldn't ever try."
    That's a weak argument. I don't see that in many atheists, moralising is the usually the tool of the theistic zealots. At least in my experience.

    Quote
    Then why hasn't a single atheist in all of history ever tried to duplicate the success of Christianity?
    Karl Marx and Communism? Some say Hitler, the NSDAP and the Third Reich? Even the pagan Roman Empire didn't actually take their gods serious, yet they duped the people for a long time, with far more "success" in their time than Christianity now.

    Quote
    You can't tell me ALL atheists have high morality and wouldn't start a false religion to aggrandize themselves.
    I have to be honest, atheists  nor theists have a monopoly on high morality. I think morality is ingrained in all of us, we understand right from wrong inherently, I personally don't need a religion or a damn book to tell me right from wrong. As far a starting  a false religion, man that's way too much work or you have way too much ego and time on your hands to even think about that.Not too say it's never happened before, but, I don't believe it would sway people one way or another who have the ability to think for themselves.IMO.

    Quote
    But even if 100% of atheists had awesome morality
    Even if they did, what would they base their "morality" on? But, even if we could all agree on what are the parameters of morality, I don;t think anyone could come forward and say he's hit the bullseye 100% of the time. And if he does, watch out, we have a real winner, look out for that guy. Religious or not.

    Quote
    why wouldn't at least ONE of them create a false religion for altruistic reasons, to prove their point and demonstrate how Christianity might have gotten started?
    I understand this reasoning, I believe they have in the past. But it wasn't to demonstrate the fallacy of Christianity, but what they actually BELIEVED was the truth as they percieved it.Not so much that religion in general and Christianity in particular was all a bunch of nonsense, even though they believed it was.

    I'm not arguing here Matthew, just diaologue with some of the scenarios you brought forward. From my perspective anyway.

    I'll address your bible questions when i have more time.

    In the mean time, maybe a real atheist can address your propostions.


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Ever heard an idiot call the Bible a book of fables?
    « Reply #2 on: March 10, 2019, 01:20:08 PM »
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  • This could be a good thread to work out some practical apologetics.

    The Quran/Koran has achieved a large number of followers. Dianetics/Scientology currently has 50k. I don't recall what the Bahai text is called, but Bahai was and is persecuted and is still growing.

    There has to be some reason these false religions gain followers. I wonder if persecution might actually make a belief more appealing to some people, along the line of a rebellious teenager.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Ever heard an idiot call the Bible a book of fables?
    « Reply #3 on: March 10, 2019, 01:25:13 PM »
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  • This could be a good thread to work out some practical apologetics.

    The Quran/Koran has achieved a large number of followers. Dianetics/Scientology currently has 50k. I don't recall what the Bahai text is called, but Bahai was and is persecuted and is still growing.

    There has to be some reason these false religions gain followers. I wonder if persecution might actually make a belief more appealing to some people, along the line of a rebellious teenager.
    First of all, the Koran was the first sycretic religion. It plagiarized from not one, not two, but THREE established religions:
    1. Christianity
    2. Judaism
    3. Native pagan Arabic religions

    Of course in the first two there are a lot of things that ring true, etc. because they are (#1) or were (#2) the True Religion designed by God, which appeal to Mankind.

    As Belloc teaches, Islam is more of a heresy of Christianity than a brand-new, man-made religion.

    BTW heresy is a whole different ball of wax. Heresies make all kinds of sense. Whenever you over-simplify any truth of religion, you end up with a heresy. Human nature like to understand everything. Ergo, lots of people attach themselves to the heresy. Also, some heresies say you can marry multiple wives, and not surprisingly many men are on board for that.

    And it's not about getting more than 50K followers. Any religion that is super localized or part of a given culture, is just a cultural phenomenon. The True Religion must be universal.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Ever heard an idiot call the Bible a book of fables?
    « Reply #4 on: March 10, 2019, 01:56:11 PM »
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  • Of course in the first two there are a lot of things that ring true, etc. because they are (#1) or were (#2) the True Religion designed by God, which appeal to Mankind.
    Pagan religions can contain truths, too. Error almost always needs to ride along with truth, just as evil doesn't exist on its own but as a defect or lack of a good.


    Offline Confiteor Deo

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    Re: Ever heard an idiot call the Bible a book of fables?
    « Reply #5 on: March 10, 2019, 04:14:49 PM »
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  • I just ask them what is false in the Bible

    Offline poche

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    Re: Ever heard an idiot call the Bible a book of fables?
    « Reply #6 on: March 13, 2019, 12:03:27 AM »
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  • Atheists of course will grasp at anything, any nonsense, to convince themselves (and others) that there is no God, and that they can therefore "do what thou wilt". It's all a big excuse to justify their sin. Usually Sixth and Ninth at that.

    One thing I see in comment sections and other locations populated by worldlings: the idea that the Bible and/or Jesus Himself was nothing more than a fable or a fantasy story, a work of fiction.

    There are obvious problems with this assertion.

    The simple, unprofessional version of the argument goes something like this:

    "Ok then, Mr. Atheist, you go ahead and write a great work of fiction and see how many people you can convince it's real. Let's see how many converts you get. I bet if the State persecuted your new religion, you'd get even *less* converts."

    All they can/will say is:

    "I don't wanna. Besides, I'm not a jerk to take advantage of the ignorance of fools, so I wouldn't ever try."

    Likely story. How convenient. Then why hasn't a single atheist in all of history ever tried to duplicate the success of Christianity? You can't tell me ALL atheists have high morality and wouldn't start a false religion to aggrandize themselves. But even if 100% of atheists had awesome morality, why wouldn't at least ONE of them create a false religion for altruistic reasons, to prove their point and demonstrate how Christianity might have gotten started?


    Some points to consider:

    1. The Bible hasn't changed it's content since the beginning. No one can show earlier manuscripts that were different, much less "simpler", than the content of the Bibles we have today.

    2. The facts put forward in the Gospels would have been recent history to many readers. There were older people still alive "who were there". Any inaccuracies, errors, etc. would have been slammed and disproven at the outset and the religion would have gained no traction. People don't uproot their lives, make great sacrifices (even death) for a good fantasy book. Would you endure torture and death for Harry Potter?

    3. Ditto for Our Lord's miracles. His mortal enemies at the time -- the Jews -- wouldn't dare deny his miracles, much less Jesus' existence. The best they could do (in their livid hatred) was to say that ALL THOSE MIRACLES were done by demonic power. Wow. Just wow. Doesn't that say a lot? When your enemies' best argument is that your miracles were from a bad source? Doesn't that imply that the miracles took place?

    4. If the Bible were fiction, then it was created by the greatest man who ever lived, and deserves study for that reason alone. Just for starters, the books of Proverbs, Ecclesiasticus, etc. seem to understand Human nature to an extraordinary degree -- almost what you would expect from the Creator/Designer of human beings! No other book, religious or otherwise, has ever demonstrated such a penetrating insight on Human Beings and the human condition.

    5. But as a matter of fact, the Bible has proven to be reliable and true whenever historical, political, or geographical data in the Bible is "fact checked". The Bible has been treated and used as a historical document many times over the centuries, with good results.

    6. The Bible wasn't written all at once, coming out of nowhere like a new Harry Potter novel. The many books of the Bible were written and "released" over many centuries. I'm sure there is plenty of historical evidence for the books of the Old Testament existing long before the time of Christ.
    I have heard 'scripture scholars' essentially call the bible a book of fables. Father Gobbi said that he recommended ignoring them.

    Offline LongHaired CountryBoy

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    Re: Ever heard an idiot call the Bible a book of fables?
    « Reply #7 on: March 13, 2019, 02:19:36 AM »
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  • Atheism is the opiate of the self-centered.

    the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men.
    ~ 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15

    I knew in my faith that the Jews were accursed and condemned without end, except those who were converted. ~ Bl. Juliana of Norwich


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Ever heard an idiot call the Bible a book of fables?
    « Reply #8 on: March 16, 2019, 02:34:48 PM »
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  • Ever since the Modernists in Church and State convinced the whole world that the Earth has been proven to move around the sun, the Bible has been labelled ‘unscientific.’ In response, churchmen put out the ploy that the Bible is not a science book and never meant to teach us natural philosophy. In fact the Bible embraces all the sciences in its task to teach its readers the ultimate truth of all things. How can the Bible, a book that touches on many natural phenomena, a book dogmatised as free from all error, not ‘teach’ the facts in it as truths? The idea is absurd, as Robin de Ruiter demonstrates:

    ‘In the field of science the Bible also triumphs continuously over any form of criticism. Both, astronomy, geology and other areas of science support the Bible. The Bible mentions, among other things, scientific objects that were discovered by only centuries later….. For example, according to medical science there is a piece of wear-resistant skin on the enamel of our teeth called the ‘cuticula dentis’ (Job 19:10). This has been discovered only recently….

         In Genesis (17:12) and Leviticus (12:2-3) God orders every boy of eight days old to be circumsized. On the eight day [modern science found] the coagulating factor prothrombin is more profused in the blood than at any other point in life. Vitamin K, which is of extreme importance in this regard, reaches its peak on the eight day (see The New Directory of Thought, 1954, p.534)….

         Many critics have mocked the text in Leviticus (11:6) wherein it is said the hare is a ruminant [cud-chewing animal]. In 1940, the Proceedings of the Zoological Society of London (pp.159-163) for the first time in history described and confirmed the amazing way in which rabbits and rabbit-like animals ruminate.’[1]  

    To our knowledge, and in spite of all that is propagated to the contrary, especially those utterances that say the Bible was not written to teach us anything other than ‘how to go to heaven,’ no science, no anthropology, archaeology or anything has ever shown the Bible, or to be more precise, the Fathers’ interpretation of it, to be untrustworthy in any sphere, whether in its creation, the age of the world, its geocentric basis, its shape of the Earth (Is.40:18-22), its water-caused geology, its water cycle (Eccles.1:7), its fixity of kinds, diversity of species, assessments of nutrition, methods of generation, its sanitation laws (Deut. 23:12-14), its rules for quarantining (Lev.13:1-5) etc.

         As regards human society, here again it cannot be found wanting. It tells us man was monotheistic, intelligent and civilised from the very beginning. After the Fall and again after the Deluge, many did lapse into primitive ways, seeking out any environment that could sustain them, whether village, jungle, desert, cave or mud-hut, such as can be found even today. Nevertheless, because man is an ordered, intellectual and social creature, records were prone to be kept, both oral and written. It is reasonable to say then that if the Bible records a real 6-10,000 year’s history, surely this past should be evident in the traditions of all peoples, whether primitive or sophisticated. As it happens, this is the case. There is not a single culture discovered that had/has not a perfect language and a history of the world that begins with the biblical account, an original couple and a cataclysm. For example, consider the following studies:

    (1) An investigation into Chinese palaeography called God’s Promise to the Chinese.[2] In a summary of this book, the reviewer states:  
    ‘The three joint-authors have clearly demonstrated, to this reviewer’s satisfaction at least, that the inventor of the original Chinese characters, which were inscribed on tortoise shells and bones, knew and believed in an identical account of creation and Earth’s beginnings to that found in Moses’ Book of Genesis….

         The Chinese have always revered their writing system. Calligraphy ranks supreme in their artistic scale of values… Just 142 of the earliest hieroglyphic pictograms contain, in a highly condensed (and therefore mentally portable and ineradicable form) key components of the Book of Genesis. Since the truth or otherwise of the Flood has profound implications for the study of geology, in the Book of Documents (Sha Ching), written 3,000 years ago, we read: “The flood waters were everywhere, destroying everything as they rose above the hills and swelled up to Heaven.” ’[3]

    The authors go on to show how the earliest Chinese were monotheists who worshiped ShangDi or the ‘God Above.’ For more than 4,000 years they sacrificed to Him in the imperial city of Beijing in what was called the ‘Border Sacrifice.’ Confucius (551-479BC) thought this sacrifice so important that he compared an understanding of it to the efficient ruling of the Chinese empire. The Border Sacrifice ended with the Manchu Ch’ing dynasty in 1911.  

    (2) In his book After the Flood,[4] a 25-year study into Middle Eastern/European palaeography, Bill Cooper traces the early post-Deluge history of the Middle East and Europe. His task was to see if the ‘Table of Nations’ (Genesis Chapter 10 and 11) could be verified in the history of nations prior to Christianity. If he could find a lineage from the Japhetic line in these histories, it would confirm the Bible also recorded true history. Cooper found ample evidence in eastern and western archives to confirm Middle East and European lines are both descended from the Japhetic tree. In Britain, Wales and Ireland he found the records of the early settlers went back 2,000 years, with the same genealogy to European differing only in language. What amazed Cooper was that the records of this history were so easy to find and so evident that he concluded its absence from textbooks, schools and universities had to be a deliberate conspiracy by modernists to uphold their version of things. 

         Likewise, no bones, buildings, artefacts, cloths etc., should be found older than the dates given in Genesis if the Bible is to be authentic. The usual method of dating such short-life (10,000 years maximum) things is Carbon-14 dating. This dating method however, relies on many assumptions to be accurate. For example, radio-carbon dating relies on two major assumptions: a 32,000-year cycle that may never have been if we do live in a 6,000+-year world: and no other carbon entered the system in its cycle. Even so, try as they did, no trace of any civilisation could be dated with certainty as being more than 5,000 years old. Dr Walter Libby, who won a Nobel Prize for his discovery of the Carbon-14 dating method, and who thought his discovery would reveal ‘prehistoric’ times, never found any human artefact older than 5,000 years.

    ‘“You read statements in books that such or such a society or archaeological site is 20,000 years old,” he commented, “but we learn rather abruptly that these numbers, these ancient ages, are not known accurately; in fact, it is about the first dynasty of Egypt that the first historical date of any real certainty has been established.”’ --- A. J. White, Radio-Carbon Dating, Cardiff, Wales, 1955, p.10.

    We could go on, but that should be enough to show that, whatever about the propaganda to the contrary, asserting the opposite, the Bible cannot be falsified in its natural revelations by investigations using true science.


    [1] Robin de Ruiter: Worldwide Evil and Misery: Mayra Publications, 2008, p.25.
    [2] E. Nelson, R. Broadberry and G. Chock: God’s Promise to the Chinese, Read Books, HCR 65 Box 580, Dunlap, TN 37327, USA, 1997.
    [3] Tim Williams: Christian Order, November 2001, pp.629-631.
    [4] Bill Cooper: After the Flood, New Wine Press, 22 Arun Business Park, Bognor Regis, West Sussex, PO22 9SX, England, 1995.



     

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