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Offline spouse of Jesus

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even if you could...
« on: June 17, 2009, 07:25:54 AM »
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  • In the book "imitation of the sacred heart" it is writen:

    Even if you could save the whole world from it's destruction by commiting the slightest sin, you must not sin.

    Saint Augustine says:"even if you could save your father's life by telling a lie, don't lie.
    Now my question: Sometimes, in special situations (like when somebody is in danger of death) things that are normally sinful, are allowed. like working on sundays or wearing the cloths of the opposite gender. It seems that some commandments can never be broken (like thou shall not lie) while some can be broken in extreme cases. What are those laws that can never be broken?


    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #1 on: June 17, 2009, 09:47:36 AM »
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  • It has to do with some acts being intrinsically evil, and other acts (like working on Sunday) are not evil in themselves -- only because God has commanded us to keep holy the Lord's Day.

    But God wants us to feed our family, etc. -- that is a positive precept -- so that comes before the negative precept of abstaining from servile work on Sunday.

    If working on Sunday was intrinsically evil, there would never be a time when it was permitted.

    Matthew
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    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    « Reply #2 on: June 17, 2009, 12:03:02 PM »
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  • But, are theft and immodesty intrinsically evil?
    I have heard that one can watch an immodestly clad person, if this action can save that person's life. Is it true?
    And about theft, is it true that one can use/ruin what belongs to another person even without his permission, when doing so can prevent a great evil?

    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #3 on: June 17, 2009, 12:09:55 PM »
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  • Actually, I believe the answer is "no".

    In the case of theft, all things belong to God. If you need to bash in a building to save people from a fire, etc. then it is OK. Normally bashing a hole in a building would be sinful.

    In the case of immodesty, the human body is not sinful in itself, and being without clothes is not sinful in itself. Normally, we wear clothing for the sake of modesty, but if our clothes catch on fire we can take them off, even if there is a crowd of people nearby. We can also take off our clothes to take a shower or bath in private. So being without clothes is not in itself (the Latin phrase: in se) sinful.

    And taking off a woman's clothes to dress her gunshot wound wouldn't be that much of an issue, because in the context of medicine such things are permitted.

    Besides, having blood all over the place isn't exactly an aphrodisiac. Just like watching a woman give birth isn't considered porn -- no man I know (including myself) is turned on by watching a woman give birth -- even his own wife. The context is completely un-sɛҳuąƖ.

    Contrast with abortion, which is intrinsically evil -- it's the murder of a helpless baby. No matter what the mother is undergoing, there is never a good reason to kill a baby.
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    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    even if you could...
    « Reply #4 on: June 17, 2009, 10:00:03 PM »
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  • Thank you, Chant!


    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #5 on: June 22, 2009, 01:52:28 PM »
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  • Good answers Matthew

    Spouseofjesus almost singlehandedly destroyed the entire medical profession...  Let's leave the baby in there because we wouldn't want to look where we shouldn't!  :roll-laugh2:
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    « Reply #6 on: June 22, 2009, 10:51:17 PM »
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  • I didn't say so, I just asked a question.

    Offline Caio di Corea

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    « Reply #7 on: June 23, 2009, 03:06:41 PM »
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  • There is no doubt of St. Paul's being always spotless in purity. His maxims on the point of treating with the opposite sex deserves attention. "As long as our bones are covered with skin, there is reason to be afraid." He states that many persons, advanced in years, even though meritorious in most walks of life, have fallen into sins for want of caution. Beautiful and practical were the rules laid down for the custody of this virtue. His advise to priests and religious was: Let your conversation with ladies be brief and stiff. One fruit seen everywhere the saint had been was that his penitents could be distinguished from their companions by their modesty in dress and deportment. He performed miracles more than once to save female modesty from the surgeon's knife and many were deprived of his friendship because they would not come up to his standards of decorum.


    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #8 on: June 23, 2009, 04:36:31 PM »
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  • St. Paul sounds a little Jansenistic but it can't hurt to be too careful.

    I also read in Butler's Lives of the Saints about many saints who would only be drawn into conversation with females through duress.  For instance, if one of them was going to donate money to build a monastery and first wanted to discuss things at length with the monk, as bored females are wont to do.  

    At church there are a couple girls who float about and to keep safe I huddle together with other men, although in my case marriage is still an option.  I am actually more afraid of getting married than a passionate sin of the flesh ( which doesn't appeal anymore ).  I don't think it would be right for me.  On that St. Paul and I agree -- the unmarried life is superior to the married.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #9 on: June 23, 2009, 04:39:11 PM »
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  • "On that St. Paul and I agree" -- oh brother, another slip of the tongue.  

    I was thinking of your comment about the surgeon's knife.  That seems a bit extreme.  Of course I "agree" with everything else he said or did, being a great saint.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #10 on: June 23, 2009, 04:42:45 PM »
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  • Actually, it's easy to reconcile.

    There's Catholic doctrine, and then there's Lives of the Saints.

    Extraordinary things happen in lives of the saints, which aren't meant for the average person. Things are done by the saints to make a point, etc. and we must look to Catholic doctrine to form our moral judgments.

    For example, it is not sinful to live among mankind, even though St. Simon Stylites lived on top of a pole. Same for pretty much all the hermits -- though we should learn from their lives that the world is dangerous and is an occasion of sin. But as far as "the law" goes, we can stay in the world if that is our vocation.

    Some saints gave away most of their possessions -- but a married man with children to support would be presumptuous and improvident if he did so.

    The saints have lessons for all of us, but those lessons must be filtered through the time we live, and our vocation. We can't go off to fight the crusades, and a married man can't live the life of a cloistered nun.

    Moreover, God wants us to be saints in the countries he placed us. A German saint will be different from a Spanish saint, who in turn will be different from an American saint. The people and challenges are different in each country, in each era.

    You don't want to mix up the mystical experiences of the saints with actual textbook Catholic principles.

    That is why we must read Lives of the Saints AND Catholic doctrine. If you ignore one or the other, you will fall into one of two errors.

    Too much lives of the Saints: We expect the extraordinary, the miraculous to be manifest in our lives. We might expect God to reveal things to us forcefully, etc.

    Too much Catholic doctrine: We might become pharisees, and lose the spirit of what it is to be Catholic (charity, etc.)

    Matthew
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    Offline Caio di Corea

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    « Reply #11 on: June 23, 2009, 04:46:57 PM »
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