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Author Topic: Ethical to own a Restaurant?  (Read 2375 times)

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Offline Bonaventure

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Ethical to own a Restaurant?
« on: January 24, 2020, 10:57:55 AM »
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    • Chick-fil-A has been a restaurant staple in the southeast for more than the past 50 years.  As they've grown, so has their reputation for not opening on Sundays in observance of the Third Commandment.  That being said, they are still a Protestant run company who serves meat (i.e., chicken) on Fridays.

    This got me to thinking... is it ethical for a traditional Catholic to own/operate a restaurant that serves meat on Fridays?  

    For example, let's say you're thinking of buying a BBQ shack in east/central Texas where the two main items on the menu are brisket and ribs--no fish.  Would this be a proper thing for a traditional Catholic to do?  Or how about work there, especially on Fridays when meat is being served? For this example, let's assume the restaurant will be, similar to Chick-fil-A, closed on Sundays in observance of the Third Commandment.

    Also, I'm assuming Catholics owned restaurants prior to 1965.  How were such issues dealt with?  Let's say I was at a restaurant on a Friday in Rome in 1925... would there be meatless options on the menu?

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ethical to own a Restaurant?
    « Reply #1 on: January 24, 2020, 11:19:41 AM »
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    • Here are the principles:
    https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/morality-of-cooperation-in-evil-9965


    The Nature And Kinds Of Cooperation In Evil

    Cooperation in evil has a very broad scope since it encompasses every form of concurrence in the evil action of another person. It ranges from ordering or advising others to perform some illicit action to selling an intrinsically good object to a person who will use it for a morally evil purpose.

    Nonetheless a distinction is usually made between <scandal> (an action by which another person is incited to sin) and <cooperation> in a strict sense (an action which enables or facilitates another's sinful action without directly influencing the other person's will to sin). Thus those forms of cooperation in evil (in the broad sense) which influence the other person's will to sin (commands, advice, and the like) are really equivalent to scandal, which is never lawful.(5)

    Cooperation in evil (in the strict sense) can be broken down in several types on the basis of distinct criteria: positive and negative (omission); necessary; sufficient and insufficient; formal and material. The latter is the most important distinction. 

    Cooperation in the sin of another precisely inasmuch as it is a sin is called formal cooperation, i.e., when the cooperator wishes the person to commit the sin or consents to its commission, whether or not he expresses this externally. Cooperation in the sin of another only inasmuch as it is a physical action, without desiring or consenting to the other's sin, is called material cooperation.

    Of practical interest is the distinction between immediate or direct cooperation or mediate or indirect cooperation. 
    Cooperation is immediate or direct if it concurs in the sinner's action itself, e.g., a person who helps a thief load the stolen goods. Cooperation is mediate or indirect if it provides some means that are used by another to sin, even though there is no necessary relationship between the means and the sin, e.g., selling a weapon to a person who then uses it to commit murder.

    A further distinction can be made between proximate and remote cooperation in accord with the greater or lesser physical or moral connection between the action of the cooperator and that of the sinner. Of course all immediate cooperation is also proximate. Not all mediate cooperation, however, is a remote cooperation. A person who deposits his money in a bank is indirectly or remotely cooperating with a person who uses a loan from that bank to publish pornographic magazines, but the bank official who grants the loan for that specific purpose is cooperating indirectly and <proximately>.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Ethical to own a Restaurant?
    « Reply #2 on: January 24, 2020, 11:27:12 AM »
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    • I don't know to what extent serving meat to a Catholic in a restaurant on a Friday, where abstinence is mandated by the Church, is proximate or remote material cooperation.  If you just work there for someone else, you'd probably be okay --- it's not your decision to make, and it is not something intrinsically evil.  If you own the restaurant, you could always serve only meatless meals on Friday --- there is a huge market in major urban centers for vegetarian or vegan restaurants --- and use this as a teachable moment to explain to your customers why you don't.  Secular and "New Age" vegetarian/vegan restaurants aren't bashful about taking their stance and telling people why they take it.  Or if it were a restaurant that serves only meat, such as a barbecue joint, you could just close on Fridays.  Many barbecue joints, and other restaurants in the South, close one or two days a week of the owner's choosing.  Other businesses, such as barber shops, frequently close on one or two weekdays if they are a weekend-intensive business, and it is an old tradition in small Southern towns to close one's business at noon on Wednesdays.


    Here is an interesting restaurant chain that is avowedly vegan:


    http://www.lovinghut.com/ipadindex.php
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    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Ethical to own a Restaurant?
    « Reply #3 on: January 24, 2020, 11:43:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on January 24, 2020, 11:27:12 AM
    I don't know to what extent serving meat to a Catholic in a restaurant on a Friday, where abstinence is mandated by the Church, is proximate or remote material cooperation.  If you just work there for someone else, you'd probably be okay --- it's not your decision to make, and it is not something intrinsically evil.  If you own the restaurant, you could always serve only meatless meals on Friday --- there is a huge market in major urban centers for vegetarian or vegan restaurants --- and use this as a teachable moment to explain to your customers why you don't.  Secular and "New Age" vegetarian/vegan restaurants aren't bashful about taking their stance and telling people why they take it.  Or if it were a restaurant that serves only meat, such as a barbecue joint, you could just close on Fridays.  Many barbecue joints, and other restaurants in the South, close one or two days a week of the owner's choosing.  Other businesses, such as barber shops, frequently close on one or two weekdays if they are a weekend-intensive business, and it is an old tradition in small Southern towns to close one's business at noon on Wednesdays.


    Here is an interesting restaurant chain that is avowedly vegan:


    http://www.lovinghut.com/ipadindex.php
    The chances are very low that you'll be serving only Catholics. Those kinds of enclaves where everyone PRACTICED the same religion largely don't exist anymore.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Ethical to own a Restaurant?
    « Reply #4 on: January 24, 2020, 11:53:14 AM »
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    • Related question: who is even bound by the law of fasting and abstinence?  Is it every human on earth (I realize there’s an age limit, that’s not the point here)?  Just the baptized?  Just baptized who are actually Catholic? 

    Like basically if a Muslim eats meat on Friday is that particular action even a sin (i realize their not being Catholic is sin regardless) 
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    Offline moneil

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    Re: Ethical to own a Restaurant?
    « Reply #5 on: January 24, 2020, 11:55:47 AM »
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    • Abstaining from meat on Friday is a discipline of the Church (and also the Eastern Orthodox) which isn't really relevant to non-Catholics ~ they have "bigger fish to fry" in terms of their final judgement, sorry for the pun, NOT.  As for Catholics going into a restaurant on a Friday, it's not the owner's or server's responsibility as to what they order, and rarely would they ever know a patron's religion.

    I would think that a Catholic owned restaurant would always offer suitable Friday fare on their menu and almost any restaurant will have some non flesh options.  Most restaurants arould my environs that offer soup will have clam chowder on Friday's.  Almost all restaurants have salads.  Even bbq and steak houses will have, even if no fish, breads/rolls, salads, potatoes, rice, vegetables, beans, coleslaw.  I was in an Arby's the other day and in addition to their signature roast beef and brisket sandwiches they have fish fillet sandwiches and macaroni and cheese, salads also I think.  Most general restaurants always offer fish sandwiches and a fish and chips basket.
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Ethical to own a Restaurant?
    « Reply #6 on: January 24, 2020, 11:56:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on January 24, 2020, 11:27:12 AM
    If you own the restaurant, you could always serve only meatless meals on Friday --- there is a huge market in major urban centers for vegetarian or vegan restaurants

    It was for that reason a BBQ joint was selected.  There really aren't any "meatless" options, at least not if one wants the business to be a going concern (i.e., not go bankrupt), especially if one is not located in a highly populated urban area.
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    Offline moneil

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    Re: Ethical to own a Restaurant?
    « Reply #7 on: January 24, 2020, 12:13:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bonaventure on January 24, 2020, 11:56:44 AM
    It was for that reason a BBQ joint was selected.  There really aren't any "meatless" options, at least not if one wants the business to be a going concern (i.e., not go bankrupt), especially if one is not located in a highly populated urban area.
    I'm not understanding the "There really aren't any 'meatless' options" if one should find themselves in a BBQ joint on a Friday, lets say one is traveling and that is the only option.  They will always have sides: beans (one will have to inquire if there is pork), coleslaw, green salads, potato salad, rolls.  One should be able to satiate hunger pains, and all the options I listed sound tasty to me.
    If it is a Catholic owned BBQ joint that is open on Friday's, it would be easy enough to, at least on Friday's, slap a side of fish on the bbq with a lemon, butter, and garlic marinade (yummy to my palate).  If an oven or deep fryer is available fish and chips can be offered.  Made from scratch mac and cheese.  If nothing else, offer clam chowder with one of the meatless sides that bbq joints always have.  I'm really not seeing a huge problem. 
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Ethical to own a Restaurant?
    « Reply #8 on: January 24, 2020, 12:39:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: moneil on January 24, 2020, 12:13:08 PM
    I'm not understanding the "There really aren't any 'meatless' options" if one should find themselves in a BBQ joint on a Friday, lets say one is traveling and that is the only option.  They will always have sides: beans (one will have to inquire if there is pork), coleslaw, green salads, potato salad, rolls.  One should be able to satiate hunger pains, and all the options I listed sound tasty to me.
    If it is a Catholic owned BBQ joint that is open on Friday's, it would be easy enough to, at least on Friday's, slap a side of fish on the bbq with a lemon, butter, and garlic marinade (yummy to my palate).  If an oven or deep fryer is available fish and chips can be offered.  Made from scratch mac and cheese.  If nothing else, offer clam chowder with one of the meatless sides that bbq joints always have.  I'm really not seeing a huge problem.
    The question isn't about visiting a BBQ joint (in which case you're right, there are plenty of options) but about RUNNING A BBQ joint.  like say I'm a Catholic restaurant owner that opens up "David's BBQ", is it allowable for me to *serve* meat on fridays or am I obliged to either close the restaurant or ONLY offer "Catholic friendly friday" options on Fridays?  That's more the question in the OP I think.
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Ethical to own a Restaurant?
    « Reply #9 on: January 24, 2020, 12:46:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on January 24, 2020, 12:39:04 PM
    The question isn't about visiting a BBQ joint (in which case you're right, there are plenty of options) but about RUNNING A BBQ joint.  like say I'm a Catholic restaurant owner that opens up "David's BBQ", is it allowable for me to *serve* meat on fridays or am I obliged to either close the restaurant or ONLY offer "Catholic friendly friday" options on Fridays?  That's more the question in the OP I think.

    ^--- Precisely.  My question is from the perspective of a restaurteur, not the patron.  
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    Offline claudel

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    Re: Ethical to own a Restaurant?
    « Reply #10 on: January 24, 2020, 01:38:30 PM »
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    • On a related topic, does anyone have an extra ticket to next week's Bonfire of the Vanities swimsuit burning in Pfeifferville?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Ethical to own a Restaurant?
    « Reply #11 on: January 24, 2020, 02:54:28 PM »
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    • Pope Paul VI changed the abstinence law, it's down to Ash Wednesday and Good Friday for the last 50 years or so, and the NOers I know don't even keep that law. We trads are the only ones who still abstain from meat on Fridays of our own volition.

    If all was as it should be, you would do zero business on those days. I think that being as it is your business to serve food, it is up to the individuals to not go to your place to eat, same as how you and I and all the other trads handle the matter now.

       
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Ethical to own a Restaurant?
    « Reply #12 on: January 24, 2020, 03:15:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 24, 2020, 02:54:28 PM
    Pope Paul VI changed the abstinence law, it's down to Ash Wednesday and Good Friday for the last 50 years or so, and the NOers I know don't even keep that law. We trads are the only ones who still abstain from meat on Fridays of our own volition.

    If all was as it should be, you would do zero business on those days. I think that being as it is your business to serve food, it is up to the individuals to not go to your place to eat, same as how you and I and all the other trads handle the matter now.

      
    Wait, what's wrong with doing business on Fridays?
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    Offline claudel

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    Re: Ethical to own a Restaurant?
    « Reply #13 on: January 24, 2020, 03:21:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 24, 2020, 02:54:28 PM

    We trads are the only ones who still abstain from meat on Fridays of our own volition.

    Bravo!

    Surely you make the crucial point. One has to be a hard-core sedevacantist to contend that the ecclesiastical regulations of the Pius XII era—as opposed, of course, to doctrine—still bind Catholics under pain of mortal sin. To argue otherwise is to make nonsense of the authoritative, doctrinal nature of the principle of the Keys of the Kingdom.

    As far as I am aware, Christ did not say that every exercise of papal authority had to be wise or even merely sensible, nor did he hint that twenty centuries down the road, well-meaning Trads could appoint themselves to work up a list of oldie-but-goodie mortally sinful offenses.
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Ethical to own a Restaurant?
    « Reply #14 on: January 24, 2020, 03:22:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on January 24, 2020, 03:15:32 PM
    Wait, what's wrong with doing business on Fridays?

    I think he meant as the owner of a BBQ restaurant whose main staples are meat products.
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