Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: cassini on July 31, 2022, 10:37:04 AM
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https://aleteia.org/2022/07/29/is-this-footage-of-a-real-eucharistic-miracle/?utm_campaign=EM-EN-Newsletter-WeeklySunday-&utm_content=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=sendinblue&utm_term=20220731
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https://aleteia.org/2022/07/29/is-this-footage-of-a-real-eucharistic-miracle/?utm_campaign=EM-EN-Newsletter-WeeklySunday-&utm_content=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=sendinblue&utm_term=20220731
Interesting.
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Meh.
1) could be the way the light is shining on that gigantic host -- this reminds me of all those "miraculous photos" from Bayside and Medjugorje. For all we know, in the festive NO atmosphere, there may be some kind of a strobe light or even disco ball present accounting for the rhythmic light pulsations
2) even if it were not just a light trick, these types of "miracles" are easily simulated by the devil, and even the ones where hosts might bleed of "become flesh" ... it's very simple for the devil to swap out a host
Why would the devil do this? To persuade people of little faith that the NOM is legitimate and pleasing to God and valid. And it's having precisely that effect.
Catholics don't do theology based on "miracles" but evaluate the miracles against Catholic theology. One of the first things the Church examines with regard to private revelations is the orthodoxy of the messages. If there's even a hint of heterodoxy, the Church refuses to accept them.
Sadly, we have even a lot of Trads using these miracles as evidence for the NOM being valid (even Bishop Williamson has taken them that way). Even IF the NOM were valid, I don't believe that God would work these miracles if in fact, as we hold, the NOM is Protestantized bastard Mass (with the Catholic Offertory replaced by a тαℓмυdic blessing) that displeases God and harms souls ... because that would encourage people to believe that God approves of the NOM.
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As an side, I am rather disappointed that Bishop Williamson seems to have demonstrated extreme credulity toward dubious private revelation and miracles. For someone who always denounces modern-day emotionalism to promote Valtorta (something that drips with sap) ... well, this confuses me. I was at an event one time in Washington, DC for the anniversary of St. Athanasius chapel (Fr. Ringrose), and Bishop Williamson was there. After a couple of speeches that were filled with emotional sap, Bishop Williamson looked at me (where no one else could se) and made the gesture of sticking his finger in his throat and gagging ... and then started laughing. That was his response to the hyper-emotionalism on display. And yet he's easily taken in by some of this stuff.
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Very interesting. Thanks for sharing
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I can remember way back when this incident was first reported. I distinctly remember how suppressed the news of it was in the MSM. I had a tendency at the time and haven't changed since to believe that the event did actually place and that it was of a miraculous nature.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRXUCqiBKP4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRXUCqiBKP4)
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As an side, I am rather disappointed that Bishop Williamson seems to have demonstrated extreme credulity toward dubious private revelation and miracles. For someone who always denounces modern-day emotionalism to promote Valtorta (something that drips with sap) ... well, this confuses me. I was at an event one time in Washington, DC for the anniversary of St. Athanasius chapel (Fr. Ringrose), and Bishop Williamson was there. After a couple of speeches that were filled with emotional sap, Bishop Williamson looked at me (where no one else could se) and made the gesture of sticking his finger in his throat and gagging ... and then started laughing. That was his response to the hyper-emotionalism on display. And yet he's easily taken in by some of this stuff.
Can you send him a letter politely cautioning him on believing such things? Do you think he still remembers you?
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I can remember way back when this incident was first reported. I distinctly remember how suppressed the news of it was in the MSM. I had a tendency at the time and haven't changed since to believe that the event did actually place and that it was of a miraculous nature.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRXUCqiBKP4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRXUCqiBKP4)
Wow, I find it hard to believe this would be a deception of Satan...
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Meh.
1) could be the way the light is shining on that gigantic host -- this reminds me of all those "miraculous photos" from Bayside and Medjugorje. For all we know, in the festive NO atmosphere, there may be some kind of a strobe light or even disco ball present accounting for the rhythmic light pulsations
2) even if it were not just a light trick, these types of "miracles" are easily simulated by the devil, and even the ones where hosts might bleed of "become flesh" ... it's very simple for the devil to swap out a host
Why would the devil do this? To persuade people of little faith that the NOM is legitimate and pleasing to God and valid. And it's having precisely that effect.
Catholics don't do theology based on "miracles" but evaluate the miracles against Catholic theology. One of the first things the Church examines with regard to private revelations is the orthodoxy of the messages. If there's even a hint of heterodoxy, the Church refuses to accept them.
Sadly, we have even a lot of Trads using these miracles as evidence for the NOM being valid (even Bishop Williamson has taken them that way). Even IF the NOM were valid, I don't believe that God would work these miracles if in fact, as we hold, the NOM is Protestantized bastard Mass (with the Catholic Offertory replaced by a тαℓмυdic blessing) that displeases God and harms souls ... because that would encourage people to believe that God approves of the NOM.
This x10^^^^.
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Wow, I find it hard to believe this would be a deception of Satan...
We must look for what are the fruits, I would think it's necessary or at least prudent, to first ask what fruit has this "miracle" produced? Seems that if the church is [still] NO or has no plans whatsoever to reject the NO and convert to the true faith, then the "miracle" is not from God. Or if not that whole church, then at least the priest and/or some parishioners. Either way, it seems a no brainer that all NO miracles cannot be held authentic, at least not until or unless they produce good fruit - in the case of the NO, that means a conversion to the true faith before anything else.
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To be completely honest what sort of bothers me is that to my knowledge, unless someone else knows of something, there aren't any recorded eucharistic miracles from a TLM. Always seems to be NO.
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Years ago when I first heard of the Poem of the Man God I started to read it but saw how awful it was & stopped. Bishop Williamson recommended the Poem of the Man God by Valtorta & even suggested that you read it to your children!!! From then on I've had nothing to do with Bishop Williamson - what he does or says is suspect.
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To be completely honest what sort of bothers me is that to my knowledge, unless someone else knows of something, there aren't any recorded eucharistic miracles from a TLM. Always seems to be NO.
There is one thing, and that's an inherent selection bias. No one I know would whip out a phone at chapels I go to, mid Mass, Adoration or anything. NOM? Apparently lots of people do this.
I am constantly considering the conservative NO position as well (if anyone on here has real temptations to this position on here it is me) but logically there are quite a few problems, and this immediately comes to mind when people bring up EM in NO.
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On the other hand I believe that many in the east have considered certain eucharistic miracles to be a bad thing related to lack of faith/ belief in the real presence. I think I read about one alleged miracle where the host which bled was a host that was found on the floor of the church. Seems like it could be Jesus saying "look how you're treating me. With your irreverence, EMHCs, communion in the hand and lack of faith you're trampling me underfoot!
**I just did a little research but for what it's worth many Eastern Orthodox see bleeding hosts or the like as bad omens or at least a sign of the people's lack if belief.
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On the other hand I believe that many in the east have considered certain eucharistic miracles to be a bad thing related to lack of faith/ belief in the real presence. I think I read about one alleged miracle where the host which bled was a host that was found on the floor of the church. Seems like it could be Jesus saying "look how you're treating me. With your irreverence, EMHCs, communion in the hand and lack of faith you're trampling me underfoot!
I agree. Those with supernatural Faith do not need miracles to believe: "For I am not come to call the just, but sinners." [Matthew 9:13]
And He doesn't perform miracles for those looking for proof of them in themselves like the unbelieving scoffers these days: "And whereas he had done so many miracles before them, they believed not in him:" [John 12:37]
The famous miracle of Lanciano came about due to a monk who had doubts about the Real Presence. You don't see these doubts among trads because the entire movement revolves around there being a legitimate/licit Mass. Faith is present, despite the other problems plaguing traditionalists, there's no doubt about that. We are so divided and combative because we're in spiritual war; the NO, by and large, are not, but lukewarm (generally-speaking) and would merit miracles to try and strengthen their faith.
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Can you send him a letter politely cautioning him on believing such things? Do you think he still remembers you?
I've written to him here or there but have not received a response. Nor does he really care what I think.
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Meh.
1) could be the way the light is shining on that gigantic host -- this reminds me of all those "miraculous photos" from Bayside and Medjugorje. For all we know, in the festive NO atmosphere, there may be some kind of a strobe light or even disco ball present accounting for the rhythmic light pulsations
2) even if it were not just a light trick, these types of "miracles" are easily simulated by the devil, and even the ones where hosts might bleed of "become flesh" ... it's very simple for the devil to swap out a host
Why would the devil do this? To persuade people of little faith that the NOM is legitimate and pleasing to God and valid. And it's having precisely that effect.
Catholics don't do theology based on "miracles" but evaluate the miracles against Catholic theology. One of the first things the Church examines with regard to private revelations is the orthodoxy of the messages. If there's even a hint of heterodoxy, the Church refuses to accept them.
Sadly, we have even a lot of Trads using these miracles as evidence for the NOM being valid (even Bishop Williamson has taken them that way). Even IF the NOM were valid, I don't believe that God would work these miracles if in fact, as we hold, the NOM is Protestantized bastard Mass (with the Catholic Offertory replaced by a тαℓмυdic blessing) that displeases God and harms souls ... because that would encourage people to believe that God approves of the NOM.
Be careful. The Pharisees said the same thing about the miracles wrought by Our Lord and said the miracles are of Beelzebub. If the Mass is valid, Our Lord is present, and He can certainly make use even of deficient rites like the NOM to bring souls closer to him. Of course this would make no sense to sedevacantists since the NOM is absolutely invalid from the sede point of view.
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I've written to him here or there but have not received a response. Nor does he really care what I think.
I’ve written to him as well, not specifically about this, but he does tend to be attracted to dubious apparitions and locutions. He acknowledges that many don’t agree with him, especially regarding the Poem. I wouldn’t go so far as to have nothing to do with him because he certainly doesn’t make agreement with him binding in conscience, more than can be said of many traditional priests and groups. I think it’s a personal weakness with him, why? Don’t know!
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Be careful. The Pharisees said the same thing about the miracles wrought by Our Lord and said the miracles are of Beelzebub. If the Mass is valid, Our Lord is present, and He can certainly make use even of deficient rites like the NOM to bring souls closer to him. Of course this would make no sense to sedevacantists since the NOM is absolutely invalid from the sede point of view.
Oh, come on now. This skepticism has absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the Pharisees. This has always been the attitude of the Catholic Church ... extreme skepticism about private revelations, miracles, etc., and the default reaction of the Church is not to accept them, unless they're proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. To liken this skepticism (according to the mind of the Church) to the Pharisees who accused Our Lord of working miracles through the devil is utterly preposterous.
No, absolutely not! If the NOM is displeasing to God, as we know it is without any reasonable doubt, God will NOT work a miracle that might give people the impression that the NOM is acceptable and pleasing to Him ... even IF the NOM were valid. In addition, God will not work miracles through the schismatics or heretics, as that would give the impression that those groups find favor with God. Any "miracles" performed among those groups are either fakes or the work of the devil. Catholic missionaries and exorcists routinely reported preternatural phenomena taking place among pagan religions, such as with voodoo in Africa, etc. ... all calculated to ensnare people in idolatry and superstition.
And stop it with the idiotic SV nonsense also, as it's not only SVs that doubt the validity of the NOM. And, secondly, this question goes well beyond that of validity. God would not be bringing "souls closer to God" by drawing them toward accepting the NOM. That's an emotionalist view to religion. Eucharistic miracles are relatively rare because faith is strengthened by NOT relying upon visible/sensible confirmation of what we know to be true.
It's precisely for this effect on weak-minded individuals (and individuals of weak faith) such as yourself that the devil works these types of spectacles. We see it having its intended effect in posts such as yours, and in Bishop Williamson falling for the nonsense as well.
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There's an article about this on the spiritdailyblog.com today. I thought it was interesting, the priest says it happened several times between 9 and 11 o clock and not everyone there could see it. The church is in a devout area of Mexico, the "Cristero" region.
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Oh, come on now. This skepticism has absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the Pharisees. This has always been the attitude of the Catholic Church ... extreme skepticism about private revelations, miracles, etc., and the default reaction of the Church is not to accept them, unless they're proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. To liken this skepticism (according to the mind of the Church) to the Pharisees who accused Our Lord of working miracles through the devil is utterly preposterous.
No, absolutely not! If the NOM is displeasing to God, as we know it is without any reasonable doubt, God will NOT work a miracle that might give people the impression that the NOM is acceptable and pleasing to Him ... even IF the NOM were valid. In addition, God will not work miracles through the schismatics or heretics, as that would give the impression that those groups find favor with God. Any "miracles" performed among those groups are either fakes or the work of the devil. Catholic missionaries and exorcists routinely reported preternatural phenomena taking place among pagan religions, such as with voodoo in Africa, etc. ... all calculated to ensnare people in idolatry and superstition.
And stop it with the idiotic SV nonsense also, as it's not only SVs that doubt the validity of the NOM. And, secondly, this question goes well beyond that of validity. God would not be bringing "souls closer to God" by drawing them toward accepting the NOM. That's an emotionalist view to religion. Eucharistic miracles are relatively rare because faith is strengthened by NOT relying upon visible/sensible confirmation of what we know to be true.
It's precisely for this effect on weak-minded individuals (and individuals of weak faith) such as yourself that the devil works these types of spectacles. We see it having its intended effect in posts such as yours, and in Bishop Williamson falling for the nonsense as well.
You think as if you are God Himself. :facepalm: He can certainly bring good out of evil and that is not for us to dictate. The faith of each individual differs and it is not for you to decide whether God can or cannot perform miracles to strengthen their faith. So far this alleged miracle is has not been judged by those in authority, so it should be left as such. Oh wait, but sedes does not recognize any living authority but themselves! If the Mass is valid, Our Lord is there. Period. Nothing emotional there.
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"For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect." [Matthew 24:24]
This verse came to mind yesterday when I was reading this thread, but I didn't have time to post about it. Often some will compare the "miracles" surrounding the Novus Ordo to this verse, which is a good and likely comparison; but I also wonder if it could refer to the deception of "great signs and wonders" of modern technology and natural science? What I mean is, how deeply-rooted naturalism is in the minds of virtually everyone today; is to an extent that these same "signs and wonders" of these naturalistic sciences and technologies have served to desensitize even "the elect" to the possibility of true miracles. As many, even when faced with a true miracle, would seek to dismiss it by means of extensive natural explanations rather than accept it as an act of God. Just look at Padre Pio, where some called him a fraud by claiming that he would apply carbolic acid to his hands to perpetuate the stigmata; and there's many more today who would be apt to believe this theory. Not to mention the ridiculous claims about how the Shroud of Turin is a Medieval forgery, or the Tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe, despite the forensic evidence.
But, it's not just limited to overt miracles, but all things of supernatural faith. Such as the literal belief in Scripture. Even among Catholics there is a deep skepticism that has been fostered by modern natural science (see: the arch-heresy of Modernism), where they have rejected the literal meaning in favor of an allegorical or "spiritual" meaning. The recent discussion on Fr. Robinson and the SSPX regarding Creationism is a good example. As they, too, have been taken in by the "signs and wonders" of modern science.