Author Topic: Does marriage remove illegitimacy?  (Read 2772 times)

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Offline PenitentWoman

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Does marriage remove illegitimacy?
« on: August 07, 2012, 05:39:27 PM »
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  • If the parent of an illegitimate child gets married (but not to the other biological parent) is the child still considered illegitimate in the eyes of the Catholic church?
    ~For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience. ~ Romans 8:24-25

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Does marriage remove illegitimacy?
    « Reply #1 on: August 07, 2012, 07:46:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: PenitentWoman
    If the parent of an illegitimate child gets married (but not to the other biological parent) is the child still considered illegitimate in the eyes of the Catholic church?



    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02579b.htm

    Quote
    (1) The subsequent marriage of the parents of an illegitimate has, by a fiction of law, a retroactive power which carries the marriage back to the time of the birth of the offspring and covers it with lawful wedlock. In order that the fiction of law may produce this effect, the parents, at the time of the conception or, at least, at the birth of such offspring, must have been capable of contracting lawful marriage. Therefore, this more of legitimation is applicable only to natural illegitimates. And these, though legitimized by the subsequent marriage of the parents, or even by an Apostolic dispensation, are forever excluded from the dignity of the cardinalate.


    Offline JohnGrey

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    Does marriage remove illegitimacy?
    « Reply #2 on: August 07, 2012, 07:56:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: PenitentWoman
    If the parent of an illegitimate child gets married (but not to the other biological parent) is the child still considered illegitimate in the eyes of the Catholic church?


    I believe that, according to canon law, the defect of illegitimacy may normatively only be cured by the marriage of the child's parents and even then is only a legal fiction, and there are some other juridical means as well.  Subsequent marriage of one parent to a non-parent does not.  As I understand it, the question of illegitimacy insofar as a human's relationship to the Church deals primarily with the question of receiving Holy Orders, though practically it does greatly affect one's relationship with others.

    Offline PenitentWoman

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    Does marriage remove illegitimacy?
    « Reply #3 on: August 07, 2012, 09:11:02 PM »
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  • Telesphorus, thank you for finding that for me. I wasn't sure if newadvent was a reliable website or not.

    JohnGrey, I guess maybe I should at least be thankful that I was blessed with a daughter and not a son.  That sounds horrible, but at least for a girl it won't create a direct impediment to a possible vocation.



    I asked because on the tradition in action website, it says this:

    What are the solutions for such a scandalous situation?

    The first is marriage. If the woman finds another man of upright character who marries her in the Church and takes her and the child under his custody, her situation is regularized. He covers her shame with his honor and his name.


    I was not sure what 'regularized' meant for the child.

    This confuses me though:

    This confuses me:   http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/k011rpUnwedMothers_Stretenovic.html

    “The Church, faithful to her traditional policy in favor of marriage, abandons her rigor when the person repairs the fault. It was a strong rigor, indeed, but one can verify that Canon Law, which aims at the reparation of the disorder as much as for its condemnation, is wide open and favors legitimizing [the illegitimate child] by a subsequent marriage”

    This, to me, implies subsequent marriage could be to someone other than the natural father.  I might be reading it wrong.
    ~For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience. ~ Romans 8:24-25

    Offline Thorn

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    Does marriage remove illegitimacy?
    « Reply #4 on: August 07, 2012, 09:57:08 PM »
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  • As I posted before in another thread - Fr. Sretenovic is far from an expert & shouldn't be posting like this on the internet.  Personalitywise he's very nice but the facts are that he grew up NO, went to a NO seminary where he was ordained, then went to an independent priest who taught him the TLM.  He himself admits that his training was deficient, yet he doesn't go to a traditional seminary for further training for some reason.  He's young & inexperienced & under the tutelage of a priest who loves being a one-liner comic in the pulpit - among all his other outside interests.
    An illegitimate child will always be known as such, no matter who the mother marries.  The mother usually ended up marrying the father, but that's not the case nowadays.
    "I will lead her into solitude and there I will speak to her heart.  Osee 2:14


    Offline PenitentWoman

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    Does marriage remove illegitimacy?
    « Reply #5 on: August 07, 2012, 10:37:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: Thorn

    An illegitimate child will always be known as such, no matter who the mother marries.  


    Understood.
    ~For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience. ~ Romans 8:24-25

    Offline clare

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    Does marriage remove illegitimacy?
    « Reply #6 on: August 08, 2012, 06:04:53 AM »
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  • For what it's worth:

    Quote
    [Engelbert Dollfuss] was born in Texing in Lower Austria to unmarried mother Josepha Dollfuss and her lover Joseph Weninger. The couple of peasant origin was unable to get married due to financial problems. Josepha married landowner Leopold Schmutz a few months after her son's birth, who did not adopt Engelbert however as his own child. Dollfuss, who was raised as a devout Roman Catholic, was shortly in seminary before deciding to study law at the University of Vienna and then economics at the University of Berlin.


    Wikipedia

    Just an example of an illegitimate boy, whose mother married someone other than the father, and who (albeit briefly) was admitted to a seminary.

    Offline Belloc

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    Does marriage remove illegitimacy?
    « Reply #7 on: August 08, 2012, 07:47:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: PenitentWoman
    If the parent of an illegitimate child gets married (but not to the other biological parent) is the child still considered illegitimate in the eyes of the Catholic church?


    only for whites, havent you heard? all other races are uncontrollably sex perverts........
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic


    Offline Belloc

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    Does marriage remove illegitimacy?
    « Reply #8 on: August 08, 2012, 07:48:29 AM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    For what it's worth:

    Quote
    [Engelbert Dollfuss] was born in Texing in Lower Austria to unmarried mother Josepha Dollfuss and her lover Joseph Weninger. The couple of peasant origin was unable to get married due to financial problems. Josepha married landowner Leopold Schmutz a few months after her son's birth, who did not adopt Engelbert however as his own child. Dollfuss, who was raised as a devout Roman Catholic, was shortly in seminary before deciding to study law at the University of Vienna and then economics at the University of Berlin.


    Wikipedia

    Just an example of an illegitimate boy, whose mother married someone other than the father, and who (albeit briefly) was admitted to a seminary.


    promiscuity is inherent in non-whites according to some ehre at CI.....so, all is forgiven, immediately, with Dolfuss' mother, a WHITE, hence, pure person.... :kick-can:
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline JohnGrey

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    Does marriage remove illegitimacy?
    « Reply #9 on: August 08, 2012, 08:39:00 AM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    For what it's worth:

    Quote
    [Engelbert Dollfuss] was born in Texing in Lower Austria to unmarried mother Josepha Dollfuss and her lover Joseph Weninger. The couple of peasant origin was unable to get married due to financial problems. Josepha married landowner Leopold Schmutz a few months after her son's birth, who did not adopt Engelbert however as his own child. Dollfuss, who was raised as a devout Roman Catholic, was shortly in seminary before deciding to study law at the University of Vienna and then economics at the University of Berlin.


    Wikipedia

    Just an example of an illegitimate boy, whose mother married someone other than the father, and who (albeit briefly) was admitted to a seminary.


    There's a massive difference between being admitted to seminary for study and being ordained.  Assuming he didn't petition for and receive a dispensation to work toward Holy Orders, it's entirely possible that he had not yet been thoroughly examined for impediments, which would've happened before he received the diaconate.

    Offline JohnGrey

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    Does marriage remove illegitimacy?
    « Reply #10 on: August 08, 2012, 08:55:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: PenitentWoman

    JohnGrey, I guess maybe I should at least be thankful that I was blessed with a daughter and not a son.  That sounds horrible, but at least for a girl it won't create a direct impediment to a possible vocation.


    This is so, as a religious profession does cure illegitimacy, though it would still prevent her from advancement to the rank of abbess or prioress.

    Quote from: PenitentWoman

    I asked because on the tradition in action website, it says this:

    What are the solutions for such a scandalous situation?

    The first is marriage. If the woman finds another man of upright character who marries her in the Church and takes her and the child under his custody, her situation is regularized. He covers her shame with his honor and his name.


    I was not sure what 'regularized' meant for the child.


    The marriage would regularize her, not the child.  In entering into marriage, her role as mother is brought into harmony with the fundamental paradigm of the Christian family, and her motherhood is no longer an open confession of a prior indiscretion.

    Quote from: PenitentWoman

    This confuses me though:

    This confuses me:   http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/k011rpUnwedMothers_Stretenovic.html

    “The Church, faithful to her traditional policy in favor of marriage, abandons her rigor when the person repairs the fault. It was a strong rigor, indeed, but one can verify that Canon Law, which aims at the reparation of the disorder as much as for its condemnation, is wide open and favors legitimizing [the illegitimate child] by a subsequent marriage”

    This, to me, implies subsequent marriage could be to someone other than the natural father.  I might be reading it wrong.


    Thorn was correct in questioning the assetions of Mr. Sretenovic (I refuse him the dignity of Father until I know that he has been properly ordained in a valid rite), given that he was formed in the spiritual sickness of the conciliar anti-church.  In fact, I find no basis for his fundamental point at all.  Even in the perfidious conciliar code of "canon law" it states:

    Illegitimate children are legitimated by the subsequent valid or putative marriage of their parents or by a rescript of the Holy See.


    Offline PenitentWoman

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    Does marriage remove illegitimacy?
    « Reply #11 on: August 08, 2012, 10:38:47 AM »
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  • Thank you.
    ~For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience. ~ Romans 8:24-25

    Offline PenitentWoman

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    Does marriage remove illegitimacy?
    « Reply #12 on: August 08, 2012, 12:25:13 PM »
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  • I'm not sure why there would be thumbs down to the people who answered my question.  I wanted to know the truth.  I'm not so good at vetting reliable Traditional Catholic  resources yet, so I asked.  I am grateful for honesty, even when it is personally painful for me.  If I didn't want the truth, there are certainly other places I could go back to.
    ~For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience. ~ Romans 8:24-25

    Offline Nishant

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    Does marriage remove illegitimacy?
    « Reply #13 on: August 08, 2012, 05:44:46 PM »
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  • The Church's law reveals both her justice and mercy. Justice because she is not indifferent to sin, especially public sin, and mercy because she shows clemency to those who are sincerely contrite over their past offenses as opposed to those who are not.

    It should be said that illegitimacy is only a canonical impediment to ordination, not a natural one, and therefore admits of dispensation. The 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia article quoted by Telesphorus gives a good description,

    Quote
    This law is not established and laid down as a punishment for the person to whom it is applied. It safeguards the honour and dignity of Holy orders. The clerical state which has the dispensing of the mysteries of God must be beyond reproach. No stain should be upon it, no blame possible. Therefore the Church raises the barrier of illegitimacy before the entrance to the priesthood. Thus the crime of the parents is held up to just reprobation, and is condemned even in the lives of their offspring. The danger of the father's incontinence being continued in the life of the son is greatly lessened, for strong indications of purity of life must be given before the door of God's ministry can be opened.

    The defect of illegitimate birth may be cured in four ways: (1) By the subsequent marriage of the parents; (2) By a rescript of the pope; (3) By religious profession; (4) By a dispensation.

    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline PenitentWoman

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    Does marriage remove illegitimacy?
    « Reply #14 on: August 10, 2012, 07:49:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant2011
    The Church's law reveals both her justice and mercy. Justice because she is not indifferent to sin, especially public sin, and mercy because she shows clemency to those who are sincerely contrite over their past offenses as opposed to those who are not.


    Thank you, Nishant.  
    ~For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience. ~ Romans 8:24-25

     

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