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Poll

Where do you stand on Marriage Prenups and State Marriage Licenses?

I FAVOR a Catholic prenup and REFUSE a state marriage license.
2 (8.3%)
I REFUSE a Catholic Prenup and ACCEPT a state marriage license.
1 (4.2%)
I accept Catholic marriage vows and state laws as written (and pray I'm not divorced).
13 (54.2%)
I don't have a firm opinion on either one.
3 (12.5%)
I hope to get to Heaven by remaining single.
5 (20.8%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Voting closed: July 05, 2018, 07:43:47 PM

Author Topic: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?  (Read 18486 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
« Reply #120 on: June 26, 2018, 08:54:22 AM »
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  • Consider:

    тαℓмυdic jewery proudly claims that America is their "Paradiso".

    So, if our country is Zionist occupied (which it is), it's logical that our divorce laws are skewed to a rabbinic design.

    Remember, Our Lord constantly admonished the jews for putting out their wives.

    What is our divorce legal system designed to do:

    1. Separate families.
    2. Financially devastate husbands and empower state socialism.
    3. Throw more women into the workforce and their children into daycare.
    4. Remove the stigma of divorce (e.g., protestant have come to trade wives like automobiles).

    In contrast, Ireland, which historically & culturally rejected divorce, still holds the lowest divorce rate in Europe.

    Around 100K divorces since they changed the laws in 1995.  Whereas Spain averages 100K/year.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #121 on: June 26, 2018, 11:50:48 AM »
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  • Quote
    I still don't understand your reasoning about the prenup.  If your wife leaves you, even if it were 100% her fault (usually it's not that unilateral), are you not still obliged before God to continue providing for your children?
    Yes and it is the husband's decision to on how he provides for his family.  It's not the court system's decision, or the priest's or anyone elses.

    Quote
    So I have no problem with the way the current court system works in making sure that a wife and children are provided for even after a separation.  It's actually very well in line with Catholic moral theology.
    It's in direct conflict with God-ordained society and catholic morals.  The courts go above and beyond the definition of "provided for" and impose a worldly, materialistic and consumeristic "standard of living" and force the husband to pay for non-essentials, luxuries, etc because "that's how everyone else is living".

    Secondly, having the courts be involved (unless in extreme circuмstances) is a usurption of the Husband's rights, duties and authority to rule over, provide and run his household.  Part of avoiding the court system is a matter of being both catholic and american, which the court system is neither - and is actually freemasonic, communistic and godless.  It's part of being a true american to be ABLE TO BE self-deterministic, autonomous and free.  These values are balanced by the catholic morals of duty, church law and the true understanding of liberty, which is the freedom to serve God and His Church.

    The court system neither respects the american values which gave rise to our country's good natural values, nor does it support true catholic morals.  Their goals are subversive of both:  dependence upon the State, over-regulation of the citizen's life, increased involvement in and micro-managing of citizen's affairs, destroying of the family, destroying of children's innocence, destroying of catholic education and morals.  Do I need to go on??

    Quote
    As I've repeatedly said, this idea of it being "unjust" to divide marital assets and make the husband provide for his wife and children comes from this notion that if she leaves due to her own fault that she is no longer entitled to receive support for her children from the husband.  That's false.
    A prenup's purpose is to prevent UNJUST division of marital assets.  Croix is the one who postulated that a wife who divorces would get nothing.  I don't agree with that, but she certainly would only get what is REQUIRED to live.  If the husband decided to give more, to help the children, he could, but it would be HIS decision (as God has ordained and as He wants) and not self-imposed by the courts, with no opportunity to appeal, no opportunity for review and to last the rest of his life.

    Don't you realize that by forcing a husband to give most of his $ to his wife, his influence on his children and his leverage to be involved in their lives and to educate them as catholics (assuming the wife were the one to leave for immoral reasons) would be gone.  Forever.  She could take his money, live independently and he would have a few days a month in which to teach them the faith.  Other than that, he is out of their lives and there's no reason for him, from a practical standpoint, to ever be involved again.

    Quote
    And in such a scenario, why does the husband need to retain all his goods?  So he can start a new family?
    Some non-catholics would say that starting a new family would be a motivation and naturally speaking, I can't blame them.  But, obviously, a catholic cannot do so, so for them the below reasons would be foremost in their minds:

    1.  It's a matter of principle.  I cannot condone a wife leaving her husband for immoral reasons and then financially raping him too.  His purpose as a husband and father is then destroyed and the children will receive the message that a man, if the courts get involved, has no true authority, but only the State does.  This is anti-catholic thinking which the children learn.

    1b.  As far as damage to the children, one could write an encyclopedia of volumes on the damage a divorce does to them, their future and their outlook on the faith (and life in general).  I don't have time to enumerate all the messages the children will absorb, so I trust most of you get the problems.

    2.  If the husband retains an equitable amount of his assets, then the immoral wife will not have an INCENTIVE to leave.  She will see that to leave a family situation, no matter how bad, will be worse, because her 'financial security' as a mom will be severely compromised.  This in and of itself, would be a deterrent to divorce.  It would be a catalyst for the couple to act like adults to figure out their problems.  As it is, a wife can leave a "boring" marriage and be better off financially than being married.  This is insanity.

    3.  This is not all about $.  It's more about authority and control.  If the woman can leave and get $, then she has independence and therefore she can live the feminist dream of being in charge and financially taken care of.  She would also be in a better position to re-marry, if she so chooses.

    Quote
    Finally, in the traditional roles, often the wife stays at home to raise the children and therefore does not develop a career that she could fall back on to support herself and her children.  Consequently, all the MORE reason that the husband should be legally bound to provide support.  This secular thinking regarding prenups is contrary to Catholic thinking in a lot of ways.
    The system is setup so that ANY woman can succeed, with ANY amount of children.  Even if her (former) husband was poor, she would get something from him in child support.  Then she can get govt assistance, food stamps, certain grants, etc.  She could then get a part/full time job and make the necessary $ to live (quite nicely) since her day/child care would be paid for too.  I'm not saying it would be a walk in the park, but it's certainly better than any man would have it, if 60-70% of his wages are taken, and he has no home, and maybe even had to sell his car.

    Quote
    Now, the one thing that IS unjust about the divorce laws, is this notion that the wife nearly always retains primary custody of the children.  In a Catholic state, if she moved out and shacked up with someone, she should NOT receive custody of the children because of the horrible influence it is for the children to grow up in a household that's sinful in its makeup.
    Unless the woman is violent, addicted to drugs or declared insane, a father will NEVER get custody of the children...and even if he did get primary custody due to one of the 'extreme' wife attrubutes, he would so ONLY after a LONG court battle with many laywers involved.  You can write-off this idea right now.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #122 on: June 26, 2018, 12:31:05 PM »
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  • I still don't understand your reasoning about the prenup.  If your wife leaves you, even if it were 100% her fault (usually it's not that unilateral), are you not still obliged before God to continue providing for your children?  And providing for your wife also indirectly aids your children.  So I have no problem with the way the current court system works in making sure that a wife and children are provided for even after a separation.  It's actually very well in line with Catholic moral theology.  As I've repeatedly said, this idea of it being "unjust" to divide marital assets and make the husband provide for his wife and children comes from this notion that if she leaves due to her own fault that she is no longer entitled to receive support for her children from the husband.  That's false.  And in such a scenario, why does the husband need to retain all his goods?  So he can start a new family?  Finally, in the traditional roles, often the wife stays at home to raise the children and therefore does not develop a career that she could fall back on to support herself and her children.  Consequently, all the MORE reason that the husband should be legally bound to provide support.  This secular thinking regarding prenups is contrary to Catholic thinking in a lot of ways.
    Yes.  I am financially dependent on my husband because I have taken a traditional wife's role.  While I have never considered divorce, around 20 years ago, my husband faced a life-threatening illness when we had five children aged 15 years to 18 months.  I had to think about how I could support us without him and it was pretty bleak.  I had no marketable skills, job experience or even a credit rating.  I gave up those things to run the home, care for our children, and homeschool.  Those were my contributions to the family.

    There have been some men talking about how a wife takes away man's money after a divorce.  My husband never says it is his money.  He says it is the family's money.  He is the only one earning money and that is one of his ways of contributing to the needs of the family.  I am able to contribute far more time to the children and house than he can because I don't have to earn money.  He has time to make money because I am looking after the children and house.  It is a team in which we both work, dividing our labour, for the common good of the family.

    The children need both their parents.  One person can't look after the children at the same as earning money to provide their material needs.  A man has a duty to provide for his children and it is not stealing to force him to do this if he will not do so willingly.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #123 on: June 26, 2018, 12:38:51 PM »
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  • Yes and it is the husband's decision to on how he provides for his family.  It's not the court system's decision, or the priest's or anyone elses.

    It's in direct conflict with God-ordained society and catholic morals.  The courts go above and beyond the definition of "provided for" and impose a worldly, materialistic and consumeristic "standard of living" and force the husband to pay for non-essentials, luxuries, etc because "that's how everyone else is living".

    Well, all the Catholic moral theology manuals state that it's the duty of the husband to provide for the wife and children according to their social status.  What you consider "luxury" might be considered appropriate for her status.  When couples divorce, there's usually some bitterness, and I can see the husband "punishing" the wife by only giving her the bare-bones necessities out of spite ... even IF it's partly or even entirely his fault.  When couples divorce, the fault is usually on both sides, and yet each of the couple tries to lay 100% of the blame on the other.  I see this all the time.  So I don't think it improper that there be some legal protections in place to ensure that the wife and children get what they're normally entitled to.  I could see the husband deciding only to pay rent for a slum in a bad neighborhood and only enough money for food that they can barely survive ... based on your principle.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #124 on: June 26, 2018, 12:42:46 PM »
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  • There have been some men talking about how a wife takes away man's money after a divorce.  My husband never says it is his money.  He says it is the family's money.  He is the only one earning money and that is one of his ways of contributing to the needs of the family.

    I have the same attitude.  My wife works more than I do and if I were gone, she would have no way to support herself and our six children because she gave up any career in order to raise them.  So it's our money.  Now Croix would undoubtedly call me and your husband betas for this reason.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #125 on: June 26, 2018, 12:45:05 PM »
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  • 2.  If the husband retains an equitable amount of his assets, then the immoral wife will not have an INCENTIVE to leave.  She will see that to leave a family situation, no matter how bad, will be worse, because her 'financial security' as a mom will be severely compromised.  This in and of itself, would be a deterrent to divorce.  It would be a catalyst for the couple to act like adults to figure out their problems.  As it is, a wife can leave a "boring" marriage and be better off financially than being married.  This is insanity.

    Usually, even with the current laws, the wife and children take a step back financially after a divorce ... unless she shacks up with another guy and gets some of his income on top of what she's collecting in alimony and child support.  It's your fault if you marry a woman who will leave a marriage because it's "boring".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #126 on: June 26, 2018, 12:47:18 PM »
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  • 3.  This is not all about $.  It's more about authority and control.  If the woman can leave and get $, then she has independence and therefore she can live the feminist dream of being in charge and financially taken care of.  She would also be in a better position to re-marry, if she so chooses.

    Again, it's your fault if you marry someone like that.  I know it's about control for you ... but it should be about charity and justice instead.  Control is typically a very self-serving notion.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #127 on: June 26, 2018, 12:48:43 PM »
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  • 1b.  As far as damage to the children, one could write an encyclopedia of volumes on the damage a divorce does to them, their future and their outlook on the faith (and life in general).  I don't have time to enumerate all the messages the children will absorb, so I trust most of you get the problems.

    NOBODY is disputing this.


    Offline Peter15and1

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #128 on: June 26, 2018, 12:49:09 PM »
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  • In contrast, Ireland, which historically & culturally rejected divorce, still holds the lowest divorce rate in Europe.

    Around 100K divorces since they changed the laws in 1995.  Whereas Spain averages 100K/year.
    That's a pretty useless comparison, given that Spain's population is ten times that of Ireland (46.7 million vs 4.7 million).  A comparison of the actual rate of divorce would be useful, raw numbers are not.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #129 on: June 26, 2018, 12:50:13 PM »
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  • I have the same attitude.  My wife works more than I do and if I were gone, she would have no way to support herself and our six children because she gave up any career in order to raise them.  So it's our money.  Now Croix would undoubtedly call me and your husband betas for this reason.
    Anyone who calls a man like that a "beta" is using secular rather than Catholic standards. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #130 on: June 26, 2018, 12:50:21 PM »
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  • I think that the big mistake in your reasoning comes from the overemphasis on control ... while forgetting charity and justice.  Our Lord had every authority and every right to control, but He made Himself a servant.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #131 on: June 26, 2018, 12:52:23 PM »
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  • You guys keep talking about "protections" for the wife when the entire legal system is setup to protect her, give her free $ and have her be a single mother.  If they could have every woman be a single mother, then they would have succeeded in their goals.

    The entire hypothetical cases we've been talking about are women who have LEFT husband, violated thier VOWS by getting a divorce, and immorally DESTROYING a family and their children's lives...and yet, it is ASSUMED that the husband will leave the wife/children destitute because, well, he's a bad father and deep down, when a woman leaves a marriage it's not her fault but his.

    I see that the feminist, anti-catholic view of a husband has infected more than just women.  So sad.  And utterly shocking.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #132 on: June 26, 2018, 12:55:49 PM »
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  • You guys keep talking about "protections" for the wife when the entire legal system is setup to protect her, give her free $ ...

    That's precisely the point, that the legal protections in place are not out of line.  As for "free" money, if she's taking care of the children, she's laboring and the money is not "free".

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #133 on: June 26, 2018, 12:58:21 PM »
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  • Quote
    It's your fault if you marry a woman who will leave a marriage because it's "boring".
    Another man-blaming attitude.  The wife leaves a marriage and it's still the man's fault.  Wow.

    Quote
    I think that the big mistake in your reasoning comes from the overemphasis on control ... while forgetting charity and justice. 
    The man cannot be charitable if the state takes his money.  The fact that the state is involved is unjust and actually prevents his charity to an undeserving and immoral wife.

    Quote
    Usually, even with the current laws, the wife and children take a step back financially after a divorce
    So the wife "takes a step back" until she can get a job, while the husband is financially destroyed, for life.  Where is the justice and charity for the husband?

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #134 on: June 26, 2018, 01:01:37 PM »
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  • You guys keep talking about "protections" for the wife when the entire legal system is setup to protect her, give her free $ and have her be a single mother.  If they could have every woman be a single mother, then they would have succeeded in their goals.

    The entire hypothetical cases we've been talking about are women who have LEFT husband, violated thier VOWS by getting a divorce, and immorally DESTROYING a family and their children's lives...and yet, it is ASSUMED that the husband will leave the wife/children destitute because, well, he's a bad father and deep down, when a woman leaves a marriage it's not her fault but his.

    I see that the feminist, anti-catholic view of a husband has infected more than just women.  So sad.  And utterly shocking.
    Everybody, men and women, is a sinner.  We can't assume that any person of either sex will do the right thing. 

    The reason you want to have prenups is because you won't assume that a woman will keep her marriage vow.  But you are fine with assuming that a man will be just in providing support for his family in the event of divorce.

    If we are going to decide things based on worst case scenarios, then we ought to include scenarios in which men behave badly, not just ones in which women do.