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Poll

Where do you stand on Marriage Prenups and State Marriage Licenses?

I FAVOR a Catholic prenup and REFUSE a state marriage license.
2 (8.3%)
I REFUSE a Catholic Prenup and ACCEPT a state marriage license.
1 (4.2%)
I accept Catholic marriage vows and state laws as written (and pray I'm not divorced).
13 (54.2%)
I don't have a firm opinion on either one.
3 (12.5%)
I hope to get to Heaven by remaining single.
5 (20.8%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Voting closed: July 05, 2018, 07:43:47 PM

Author Topic: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?  (Read 18549 times)

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Offline MaterDominici

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Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
« Reply #90 on: June 24, 2018, 11:08:23 PM »
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  • Yeah, if a prenup existed, you could enforce the above.  If there is no prenup, then you could not enforce the above because the husband has ZERO LEVERAGE.  And really, the priest has low leverage too.  The woman can ignore both of them, or not.  She can go the courts and get money, or not.  She can destroy a marriage, or not.  COMPLETELY up to her.  This is insanity and is feminism in all its horror on display.

    A prenup gives leverage back to the husband, so that the wife cannot control his money (which for an evil woman means she controls him and gets revenge on him), because he is THE HEAD OF THE FAMILY and she does not have the right to destroy the marriage or leave and take the children for non-church approved reasons.  A prenup is more about authority, and the lack of authority over the family that the system gives men (which is their God-given RIGHT).  Thus, it can be argued that a prenup shifts the authority and control of marital discord back to where it belongs - in the hands of the Church and the husband.  
    I'm all for putting some control back in the hands of the Church who would instinctively make separation and civil divorce entirely undesirable for both parties. But, I also know that no amount of legal paperwork is going to make a happy marriage. A woman of very low character is going to get what she wants even if she has to take you out of the picture in the process, while a woman of high morals will never resort to having the courts impose vengeance for her. Skip the paperwork and ask God to send you a virtuous spouse. "Ask and you shall receive."

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #91 on: June 24, 2018, 11:26:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jaynek on Today at 07:02:28 PM
    Quote
    Also, from what I an tell, the men who are agreeing with you about prenups are single and the ones disagreeing are married.  The people with experience are against having a prenup and it is supported by those who only imagine what marriage is like.  This in itself is a good indicator that prenups are a bad idea.
    Uhhh... just maybe some of us "people with experience" with being married have better things to do than to participate in this conversation... as a matter of fact, I tend to side with the objective concerns of Croix de Fer than those, as a whole, who seem to be in disagreement primarily based on emotion.

    Please don't include me, and I'm sure that there are others, in your very limited cross section of participants in this matter.

    BTW, I'm happily married, BUT, I'm not blind to the all out attack by the Devil against men and the family.
    I'm not altogether against the idea. But, I am against the idea that you should reject anyone who isn't willing to sign a prenup that you've created yourself.


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #92 on: June 25, 2018, 01:11:42 AM »
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  • When I got married, I looked into only having a Church marriage and it wasn't possible.  Getting married in the Church was automatically registered with the state.
    This was in Canada.  I have heard it works differently in different countries.
    In Australia you don't apply for a marriage license. (I've only heard about them in movies). 
    When you go to the priest and he agrees to perform the marriage, you just go to the Church on the day with two witnesses, then after the ceremony the priest asks you to sign a Marriage Certificate, which is signed by the sopouses and two witnesses.
    The priest then sends the relevant papers to the state as a record that the marriage was performed.
    So we don't apply for (or demand) a marriage license.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #93 on: June 25, 2018, 04:03:04 AM »
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  • edit

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #94 on: June 25, 2018, 04:04:31 AM »
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  • Quote
    Nadir said:

    In Australia you don't apply for a marriage license. (I've only heard about them in movies).
    When you go to the priest and he agrees to perform the marriage, you just go to the Church on the day with two witnesses, then after the ceremony the priest asks you to sign a Marriage Certificate, which is signed by the sopouses and two witnesses.
    The priest then sends the relevant papers to the state as a record that the marriage was performed.
    So we don't apply for (or demand) a marriage license.

    That's not dissimilar to the Communist Soviet era that was fused with the Church to keep tabs on all of the people. It's another example of why Australia isn't a free country. You can't even exercise your inalienable right to carry a firearm and employ self-defense. Your ability to buy most firearms is restricted, too. The few that you can buy, you must get a license to do it. A "license" is nothing more than a piece of paper that steals away your rights, then sells them back to you.


    Offline jvk

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #95 on: June 25, 2018, 06:20:09 AM »
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  • When you get car insurance, do you plan on getting in a car accident? That's the same "logic" you're using. Answer the question, woman.
    So, basically, you're looking at this prenup as a type of insurance?  The man would be "insured" against the woman leaving him?  And she should trust his judgment enough that she should be willing to sign such a prenup as an act of love and a sign of her future willingness to obey, correct? 
    OK, I can get that. 
    However.  All these arguments are presuming the woman is the one to initiate divorce.  What protection would be provided for the woman should the man decide that he wants a divorce?  What if he grows tired of his sweet, lovable wife.  One who is obedient and a good wife and mother.  You're saying the woman can change after marriage.  Well, would you not agree that a man could change as well?  Where's her insurance? 

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #96 on: June 25, 2018, 06:54:56 AM »
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  • So, basically, you're looking at this prenup as a type of insurance?  The man would be "insured" against the woman leaving him?  And she should trust his judgment enough that she should be willing to sign such a prenup as an act of love and a sign of her future willingness to obey, correct?
    OK, I can get that.
    However.  All these arguments are presuming the woman is the one to initiate divorce.  What protection would be provided for the woman should the man decide that he wants a divorce?  What if he grows tired of his sweet, lovable wife.  One who is obedient and a good wife and mother.  You're saying the woman can change after marriage.  Well, would you not agree that a man could change as well?  Where's her insurance?
    Yes, the prenup should include protection of the woman, too. The text should include that a woman gets up to half of what the man built and acquired after the marriage, or whatever they both agree on that's written in the prenup, in the event the man "divorces" his wife for no reason, or he's been proven to commit adultery, abuse or any other situation unbecoming of a husband.

    But the man must be very careful and consider strict limitations on what is given to the wife, because the court system is so corrupt & subversive, it would award a woman what's underscored in the prenup simply because the wife videotapes the man sneezing, and the court adjudicates that as "malicious intent to harm the wife",

    Offline Marie Teresa

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #97 on: June 25, 2018, 07:34:28 AM »
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  • Right, wills are an easy fix.  But what about the situation where you get into a car accident and you're in a coma and your wife isn't allowed to make a decision on some necessary surgery because insurance doesn't recognize her as your spouse, therefore they aren't legally allowed to let her help you or make decisions on your behalf.

    ... I'm not saying all this can't be legally fixed, i'm just saying that there are 'unintended consequences' if one avoids a marriage license.  So keep that in mind. And if you don't fix these issues, then if tragedy strikes, you could have a lot of headaches.  

    Some jobs have benefits for a surviving spouse, which I don't think there would be a "fix" for, leaving the widow without that much-needed benefit/income, possibly forcing her to go get a job to support the children, thus requiring them to go to day-care etc.  Things are not as simple as some might seem to think.    


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #98 on: June 25, 2018, 08:07:15 AM »
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  • I'm all for putting some control back in the hands of the Church who would instinctively make separation and civil divorce entirely undesirable for both parties. But, I also know that no amount of legal paperwork is going to make a happy marriage. A woman of very low character is going to get what she wants even if she has to take you out of the picture in the process, while a woman of high morals will never resort to having the courts impose vengeance for her. Skip the paperwork and ask God to send you a virtuous spouse. "Ask and you shall receive."

    "Putting control back into the hands of the Church", but the Church isn't functioning... at any level?

    As a sad reminder, the SSPX just handed our holy traditional marriages over to the Concilliar Church bishops.

    The Catholic Prenup concept is mainly a band-aid approach to our judaized legal system.

    The husband or wife may try to seek relief in the civil courts, but the Prenup contract will hopefully provide some protection.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline B from A

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #99 on: June 25, 2018, 08:23:55 AM »
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  • ... But, I also know that no amount of legal paperwork is going to make a happy marriage. A woman of very low character is going to get what she wants even if she has to take you out of the picture in the process, while a woman of high morals will never resort to having the courts impose vengeance for her. Skip the paperwork and ask God to send you a virtuous spouse. "Ask and you shall receive."
    ^This.   And work on making yourself a virtuous potential spouse too, which would seriously lessen the likelihood of your future virtuous spouse wanting to dump you.  

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #100 on: June 25, 2018, 08:38:55 AM »
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  • ^This.   And work on making yourself a virtuous potential spouse too, which would preclude your future virtuous spouse wanting to dump you.  

    Praying together and striving to lead a virtuous Catholic married life are key elements.

    But how to protect the marriage against the continual assaults of a world saturated with feminism, materialism and pornography?

    And when one spouse falls and runs to the divorce courts, the trad priests who can help you are few and far between.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #101 on: June 25, 2018, 09:03:33 AM »
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  • Quote
    But, I also know that no amount of legal paperwork is going to make a happy marriage.
    This is called, in logic, "moving the goalposts", meaning you are changing the goal of the debated action.  The purpose of a prenup is not to ensure happiness, because it can't.  So your point is irrelevant.

    Quote
    A woman of very low character is going to get what she wants even if she has to take you out of the picture in the process, while a woman of high morals will never resort to having the courts impose vengeance for her.
    In our day and age, ANYONE can go from pious to a loss of faith in a matter of a few years.  I'm not saying it happens a lot, but there's plenty of people I know who grew up Trad who are now atheists.  Women can lose their faith just like men can get addicted to vice or drinking.

    Quote
    Skip the paperwork and ask God to send you a virtuous spouse.
    Marriage is one of the most important and difficult endeavors 2 people are EVER going to go through (especially in our day, when there is no help from the Church, when families are spread out, when society is anti-marriage) and your answer is that prayer will solve everything.  That's true only to a certain point.  We are both physical and spiritual beings, therefore whatever we do requires a physical action, in addition to prayer.

    I can pray that God sends me food each day, but I have to work for it.  I can pray that God helps me find a new house, but I have to go look at houses to actually see which one is good.  I can pray for a happy marriage/pious spouse, but 1) a happy marriage takes CONSTANT effort and for a catholic to stay pious takes CONSTANT effort, both physical and spiritual.  Not one or the other, but both.

    Your argument is, like most of the arguments on this thread, pure idealism, and skips practical/physical action.

    Quote
    And work on making yourself a virtuous potential spouse too, which would seriously lessen the likelihood of your future virtuous spouse wanting to dump you.
     Thank you for being honest and using the word "lessen" which does not mean eliminate.  Therefore, you admit the threat of divorce still exists.  Therefore, a prenup *could* be of use.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #102 on: June 25, 2018, 09:17:55 AM »
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  • It's ironic that JVK put out a "soap opera scenario" where the husband is divorced for non-church approved reasons and none of you women have condemned the hypothetical woman for serious sin.  Anytime you criticized "her" actions, it was always qualified, always indirectly justified, always given the benefit of the doubt.  And all of you claim to be in happy marriages, with years of experience.

    The hypothetic wife should be labeled as a homewrecker, and the husband labeled an immature, sorry excuse for a man.  Neither is a good catholic.  But separation/divorce is a step that cannot be taken lightly, as did the hypothetical wife.  She committed a hypothetically grave sin which mocks her marriage vows and she should be called out for it.

    Seems to me that even good, catholic women like y'all are infected with feminism and worldly attitudes about divorce.  So even if a man prays for a "pious wife" such a woman is still partially-infected with feminism and the state's fight against holy matrimony.  It's unavoidable.  Your reactions prove so.

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #103 on: June 25, 2018, 09:45:00 AM »
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  • It's ironic that JVK put out a "soap opera scenario" where the husband is divorced for non-church approved reasons and none of you women have condemned the hypothetical woman for serious sin.  Anytime you criticized "her" actions, it was always qualified, always indirectly justified, always given the benefit of the doubt.  And all of you claim to be in happy marriages, with years of experience.

    The hypothetic wife should be labeled as a homewrecker, and the husband labeled an immature, sorry excuse for a man.  Neither is a good catholic.  But separation/divorce is a step that cannot be taken lightly, as did the hypothetical wife.  She committed a hypothetically grave sin which mocks her marriage vows and she should be called out for it.

    Seems to me that even good, catholic women like y'all are infected with feminism and worldly attitudes about divorce.  So even if a man prays for a "pious wife" such a woman is still partially-infected with feminism and the state's fight against holy matrimony.  It's unavoidable.  Your reactions prove so.

    Exactly, many of these women are infected with the Jezebel spirit.

    As I said before, their opposition to prenups, and their insistence on a State marriage license, is not based off of Catholic teaching & tradition as they want us to believe, but rather out of a deeply ingrained, indoctrinated, self-serving, feminist ego resisting anything that neutralizes women's position over men.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #104 on: June 25, 2018, 09:59:20 AM »
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  • Quote
    Exactly, many of these women are infected with the Jezebel spirit.

    As I said before, their opposition to prenups, and their insistence on a State marriage license, is not based off of Catholic teaching & tradition as they want us to believe, but rather out of a deeply ingrained, indoctrinated, self-serving, feminist ego resisting anything that neutralizes women's position over men.
    No, that's taking things too far.  We're ALL infected with liberalism and modernism.  None of us is a walking saint and those of us living in the world absorb its errors whether we like it or not.

    Until you brought up the idea of avoiding a marriage license, i'd never given it 2 seconds of thought.  So, by your definition, I was insisting on getting one, therefore i'm a male-feminist (which, sadly, do exist).  Also, your claims that any woman who wants one is self-serving, feminist, etc is going way overboard and you're hurting your argument and your integrity by being extreme.

    This is a facinating debate, because it combines catholic morals and human psychology - much to learn from it!  But it's not about condemning women, or avoiding marriage, or protecting $.  It's about exposing the anti-catholic society we live in, about "alternative" measures that one can take to protect themselves and about REALIZING that some of our long-held views are wrong, or at least, not consistent with catholic ideals.  And these catholic ideals have not been preached/upheld for 50-60 years!  This is because our Faith was stolen from us.  But still, we have grace so we can re-learn and recognize such ideals if we have good will.  But for some of you, especially women who society is trying to destroy, you must especially be on guard and open to the possibility that you may not recognize the corruption that you have regrettably absorbed.