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Poll

Where do you stand on Marriage Prenups and State Marriage Licenses?

I FAVOR a Catholic prenup and REFUSE a state marriage license.
2 (8.3%)
I REFUSE a Catholic Prenup and ACCEPT a state marriage license.
1 (4.2%)
I accept Catholic marriage vows and state laws as written (and pray I'm not divorced).
13 (54.2%)
I don't have a firm opinion on either one.
3 (12.5%)
I hope to get to Heaven by remaining single.
5 (20.8%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Voting closed: July 05, 2018, 07:43:47 PM

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Author Topic: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?  (Read 18567 times)

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Offline MaterDominici

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Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
« Reply #75 on: June 24, 2018, 07:52:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 24, 2018, 07:43:22 PM
    In your original example, the wife separated from the husband (and you presumed he wouldn’t give her money, which then you changed to say that he couldn’t afford to) but you used this financial hardship as a reason for divorce.  If you’ll admit this is a wrong action, I’ll agree and we can move on.  

    --clipped alternate example--
    Yes, I presumed he wasn't supporting her. If he was, there would be no need for her to file anything. I also didn't say he was shirking his duty, but that he simply couldn't afford to cover everything which is VERY likely in most Trad families.
    .
    But, again, you killed the example a long time ago by saying they'd be back together after 4 weeks. Anyone not willing to return has left the bounds of the original agreement and forfeited their rights therein.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #76 on: June 24, 2018, 08:05:07 PM »
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    • Quote
    Anyone not willing to return has left the bounds of the original agreement and forfeited their rights therein.
    Forfeited what rights?  I mean if a woman gets permission from a priest to separate from the husband and agrees that she will revisit the issue with the priest after 4 weeks and the priest says, "ok, things have calmed down now, you need to return home." and the wife says "no", she has just disobeyed the priest, but it's not like she's excommuncated or a divorce is automatic.  It just means she said "no".  What rights has she forfeited?  I don't get your comment.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #77 on: June 24, 2018, 08:05:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Croix de Fer on June 24, 2018, 07:45:27 PM
    The point of the prenup is to protect a man from legalized, court-sanctioned theft by the woman divorcing him, if a divorce were to occur, and it's only prudent to enact a prenup in the wake of the high statistical divorce rates. That doesn't mean he thinks his marriage will end in "divorce". It only means he's prepared for the worst. When you get car insurance, do you plan on getting in a car accident? That's the same "logic" you're using. Answer the question, woman.
    False analogy. Nobody chooses to have a car accident, but one (at least) of the spouses, must choose a divorce.  It is not something that happens to them by accident.  It is prudent to have car insurance because car accidents are beyond one's control.  Divorce is up to the couple.  No matter what the divorce rate is, a couple only gets divorced if one of them chooses it.

    Making a prenup is preparing for divorce. It shows one believes that at least one of the spouses is capable of choosing divorce.
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #78 on: June 24, 2018, 08:07:07 PM »
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    • I can't believe all of you have wasted six pages on this punk's drivel.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #79 on: June 24, 2018, 08:07:21 PM »
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    • Quote
    Making a prenup is preparing for divorce. It shows one believes that at least one of the spouses is capable of choosing divorce.
    Yes, a prenup says "If you divorce, this is what happens..."  It imposes penalties and CONSEQUENCES which are lacking in our anti-catholic, masonic and godless world.  In the current situation, women have a FINANCIAL INCENTIVE to divorce.  I'm not saying they will, or they want to, but if the situation reaches crisis mode, the temptation is there and it will be a strong one, because "the world" will tell them "you need to think of the children and take care of them."  Oh the devil will be working overtime on her emotions to get her to sign that divorce paper.

    A prenup REMOVES THE TEMPTATION for the wife, so that she would look at the divorce in its TRUE AND HORRIFYING light, which is, divorce is not pretty for either spouse.  Divorce will be difficult, it will be filled with financial unknowns and much insecurity and sleepless nights, as it should be.  Because those who get a divorce are an abomination in God's eyes and He will not be pleased and his Divine Providence will not be there.

    Yes, any spouse is capable of choosing divorce.  If you don't believe that, you are living in a fantasy world.
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    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #80 on: June 24, 2018, 08:22:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on June 24, 2018, 08:05:29 PM
    False analogy. Nobody chooses to have a car accident, but one (at least) of the spouses, must choose a divorce.  It is not something that happens to them by accident.
    You're deliberately missing the forest for the trees. What matters is the end, not the means. The end is the "divorce" (car accident), not what led to it (means). A prenup protects the man from having his home, money, and everything else stolen from him by the woman. Car insurance protects a person from getting sued, and it pays for damages to their cars.

    Quote
    It is prudent to have car insurance because car accidents are beyond one's control.  Divorce is up to the couple.  No matter what the divorce rate is, a couple only gets divorced if one of them chooses it.
    Your last sentence supports my argument and nullifies what you said just prior to it. Divorce isn't up to the man when his wife can "divorce" him for any reason, and no reason at all, through no fault of his own. Hence, the divorce is, indeed, beyond his control. Court cases prove it.

    Quote
    Making a prenup is preparing for divorce. It shows one believes that at least one of the spouses is capable of choosing divorce.
    Yes, it prepares for a "divorce", if it were to unfortunately come, but it's not expecting it. It's only prudent to prepare for the worst, especially when the trend is growing as time passes.  I see you tried to change your language around ("preparing for" replaced "expecting") to make your point valid, but you only supported my point. Thanks.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #81 on: June 24, 2018, 08:25:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 24, 2018, 08:07:21 PM
    Yes, a prenup says "If you divorce, this is what happens..."  It imposes penalties and CONSEQUENCES which are lacking in our anti-catholic, masonic and godless world.  In the current situation, women have a FINANCIAL INCENTIVE to divorce.  I'm not saying they will, or they want to, but if the situation reaches crisis mode, the temptation is there and it will be a strong one, because "the world" will tell them "you need to think of the children and take care of them."  Oh the devil will be working overtime on her emotions to get her to sign that divorce paper.

    A prenup REMOVES THE TEMPTATION for the wife, so that she would look at the divorce in its TRUE AND HORRIFYING light, which is, divorce is not pretty for either spouse.  Divorce will be difficult, it will be filled with financial unknowns and much insecurity and sleepless nights, as it should be.  Because those who get a divorce are an abomination in God's eyes and He will not be pleased and his Divine Providence will not be there.

    Yes, any spouse is capable of choosing divorce.  If you don't believe that, you are living in a fantasy world.
    I am living in a marriage of 38 years.  We managed to avoid divorce without the supposed help of a prenup because we are committed to keeping the vows we made before God.  And that is all anyone needs.

    Neither my husband nor I will ever choose divorce.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #82 on: June 24, 2018, 08:28:16 PM »
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    • Quote
    Neither my husband nor I will ever choose divorce.
    Great, but you're 1 couple out of a 100,000 trad couples.  Do you deny that trads have NEVER divorced?  Does 1 couple 'set the rule' for all couples?  
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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #83 on: June 24, 2018, 08:30:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 24, 2018, 08:05:07 PM
    Forfeited what rights?  I mean if a woman gets permission from a priest to separate from the husband and agrees that she will revisit the issue with the priest after 4 weeks and the priest says, "ok, things have calmed down now, you need to return home." and the wife says "no", she has just disobeyed the priest, but it's not like she's excommuncated or a divorce is automatic.  It just means she said "no".  What rights has she forfeited?  I don't get your comment.
    Presuming priest-approved separation and priest-approved return:
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    If he wants her to come home and she does not want to return, she can't go to the courts and attempt to get money or custody.
    .
    If she wants to come home and he does not want her to return, he can't seek custody and has to allow her to receive financial support from him as the courts see fit.
    .
    (It's usually HIM who moves out temporarily, but I'm sure you can swap around the wording accordingly.)
    .
    It would be more complicated if the priest doesn't recommend a reunification.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #84 on: June 24, 2018, 08:31:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 24, 2018, 08:28:16 PM
    Great, but you're 1 couple out of a 100,000 trad couples.  Do you deny that trads have NEVER divorced?  Does 1 couple 'set the rule' for all couples?  
    All couples can choose commitment to their vows as my husband and I did.  And trads presumably have more graces than most people to assist them in doing this.
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    Offline 1st Mansion Tenant

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #85 on: June 24, 2018, 08:36:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 24, 2018, 08:28:16 PM
    Great, but you're 1 couple out of a 100,000 trad couples.  Do you deny that trads have NEVER divorced?  Does 1 couple 'set the rule' for all couples?  
    No, there are many trad couples who have been married long term without a pre-nup and have not seriously considered divorce, even during rough patches. My husband and I joke that if worse came to worse we'd just paint a white line down the middle and go on about our business because it would be too hard to start over. I don't think the statistic you pulled out of your hat is accurate.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #86 on: June 24, 2018, 08:38:54 PM »
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    • Quote
    Presuming priest-approved separation and priest-approved return:
    .
    If he wants her to come home and she does not want to return, she can't go to the courts and attempt to get money or custody.
    .
    If she wants to come home and he does not want her to return, he can't seek custody and has to allow her to receive financial support from him as the courts see fit.
    Yeah, if a prenup existed, you could enforce the above.  If there is no prenup, then you could not enforce the above because the husband has ZERO LEVERAGE.  And really, the priest has low leverage too.  The woman can ignore both of them, or not.  She can go the courts and get money, or not.  She can destroy a marriage, or not.  COMPLETELY up to her.  This is insanity and is feminism in all its horror on display.

    A prenup gives leverage back to the husband, so that the wife cannot control his money (which for an evil woman means she controls him and gets revenge on him), because he is THE HEAD OF THE FAMILY and she does not have the right to destroy the marriage or leave and take the children for non-church approved reasons.  A prenup is more about authority, and the lack of authority over the family that the system gives men (which is their God-given RIGHT).  Thus, it can be argued that a prenup shifts the authority and control of marital discord back to where it belongs - in the hands of the Church and the husband.  
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #87 on: June 24, 2018, 08:42:54 PM »
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    • Quote
    All couples can choose commitment to their vows as my husband and I did.

    I'm not tempted to x, y or z, therefore anyone can avoid this sin.  ??  Dumbest argument i've ever heard.


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    No, there are many trad couples who have been married long term without a pre-nup and have not seriously considered divorce, even during rough patches.
    Many but not all.  Most marriages in the trad world stay together, but not all.  Prenups are for 'emergency situations.'
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    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #88 on: June 24, 2018, 08:45:01 PM »
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    • Jaynek, don't evade my last response. Here it is, again:

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    Jaynek says:

    False analogy. Nobody chooses to have a car accident, but one (at least) of the spouses, must choose a divorce.  It is not something that happens to them by accident.
    You're deliberately missing the forest for the trees. What matters is the end, not the means. The end is the "divorce" (car accident), not what led to it (means). A prenup protects the man from having his home, money, and everything else stolen from him by the woman. Car insurance protects a person from getting sued, and it pays for damages to their cars.


    Quote
    Jaynek says:

    It is prudent to have car insurance because car accidents are beyond one's control.  Divorce is up to the couple.  No matter what the divorce rate is, a couple only gets divorced if one of them chooses it.
    Your last sentence supports my argument and nullifies what you said just prior to it. Divorce isn't up to the man when his wife can "divorce" him for any reason, and no reason at all, through no fault of his own. Hence, the divorce is, indeed, beyond his control. Court cases prove it.


    Quote
    Jaynek says:

    Making a prenup is preparing for divorce. It shows one believes that at least one of the spouses is capable of choosing divorce.
    Yes, it prepares for a "divorce", if it were to unfortunately come, but it's not expecting it. It's only prudent to prepare for the worst, especially when the trend is growing as time passes.  I see you tried to change your language around ("preparing for" replaced "expecting") to make your point valid, but you only supported my point. Thanks.
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    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #89 on: June 24, 2018, 09:16:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on June 24, 2018, 07:02:28 PM
    Also, from what I an tell, the men who are agreeing with you about prenups are single and the ones disagreeing are married.  The people with experience are against having a prenup and it is supported by those who only imagine what marriage is like.  This in itself is a good indicator that prenups are a bad idea.

    Uhhh... just maybe some of us "people with experience" with being married have better things to do than to participate in this conversation... as a matter of fact, I tend to side with the objective concerns of Croix de Fer than those, as a whole, who seem to be in disagreement primarily based on emotion. 

    Please don't include me, and I'm sure that there are others, in your very limited cross section of participants in this matter. 

    BTW, I'm happily married, BUT, I'm not blind to the all out attack by the Devil against men and the family. 
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