Author Topic: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ? (Read 18558 times)

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #45 on:** June 24, 2018, 04:47:42 PM »

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Again, the mentality that the husband has somehow been wronged by forcing to pay child support or alimony comes implicitly from the notion that the wronged husband should be able to start a new family.

Disagree. It has to do with an injustice and an undue burden on men, which forces them to live in poverty for the rest of their lives. Some would want to get re-married, some would not. The question is: does the court return just and fair decisions in family court? Absolutely not. The intentions of the injured party, and what they plan on doing AFTER the divorce is irrelevant to the main concern of court injustice.

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Both the husband and wife see the faults of the other and see the other as the cause of the marriage problems. Both see themselves as the injured party, so how are they going to implement a prenup designed to protect the injured party? Who is going to make the decision about who is at fault? They have both committed mortal sins. How could a prenup have envisioned the situation they are facing?

Lawyers make a living figuring these things out. Have you ever read a leasing contract? It covers almost every imaginable situation and is not over 20 pages long.

In your scenario, both spouses are at fault for causing turmoil, but still, the spouse who issues divorce proceedings (absent a church allowance) IS AT FAULT. If the wife feels the need to separate for a time (assuming it is ok'ed by the Church) then ok. If she were to go through with civil divorce, she must face the consequences of her abandonment of the marriage. The husband still has a strict duty to support her and his children but THE COURTS WOULD NOT BE INVOLVED. This is the PRIMARY purpose of all of this.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #46 on:** June 24, 2018, 05:00:43 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 24, 2018, 04:47:42 PM

In your scenario, both spouses are at fault for causing turmoil, but still, the spouse who issues divorce proceedings (absent a church allowance) IS AT FAULT. If the wife feels the need to separate for a time (assuming it is ok'ed by the Church) then ok. If she were to go through with civil divorce, she must face the consequences of her abandonment of the marriage. The husband still has a strict duty to support her and his children but THE COURTS WOULD NOT BE INVOLVED. This is the PRIMARY purpose of all of this.

I completely disagree with this. If they are married but living apart and she needs assistance from the government, she'll be forced to file for a divorce. This is not denying that she is still married, but acknowledging that she's in need of financial assistance and isn't going to get it from her husband. This does not mean she's abandoned the marriage and does not mean she's certainly at fault.
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This presumes he isn't covering her expenses, but that isn't a crazy idea as most single-income earners cannot afford to provide for 2 households.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #47 on:** June 24, 2018, 05:09:51 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on June 24, 2018, 11:04:13 AM

I wouldn't enter a prenup. I recognize that I am obliged before God to provide for my wife and children ... even if my wife were to leave me for no fault of my own. I would give them more than what the divorce settlements typically provide.

My own *non-Catholic, non-religious* father had this attitude. Some 25 years after he divorced my mother and children are no longer an issue, he still feels a responsibility to make sure her basic needs are met. Now, he's seldom had to put this to practice as she's quite self-sufficient, but the attitude is still there. He's repaired her porch, painted her house ... these days he just makes sure my brothers take care of whatever she needs which isn't difficult because they have a similar attitude about taking care of their aging parents.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #48 on:** June 24, 2018, 05:15:58 PM »

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If they are married but living apart and she needs assistance from the government, she'll be forced to file for a divorce.

The Church does not, and never has, condoned long-term separation. A separation would be for 2-4 weeks. Long term separation is immoral.

Secondly, you're assuming the man wouldn't support his wife during the separation. Again, if the Church approved of it, he would have to go along. If he didn't, then that's a larger issue which I don't know enough about to answer. I'm sure she can get some friends to help for 2-4 weeks and figure out a housing situation.

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she'll be forced to file for a divorce. This is not denying that she is still married, but acknowledging that she's in need of financial assistance and isn't going to get it from her husband. This does not mean she's abandoned the marriage and does not mean she's certainly at fault.

No one is FORCED to file for divorce (see how the liberal mindset has already crept into your psyche?). The only EXTREME case would be to protect your privacy or finances from an abusive/violent or gambling/drug problem. But this is extreme.

All of you women are jumping to conclusions and 'worst case' scenarios, when in fact, most divorces are for petty, frivolous and "emotional" reasons. Stop watching lifetime movies.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #49 on:** June 24, 2018, 05:18:26 PM »

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I recognize that I am obliged before God to provide for my wife and children ... even if my wife were to leave me for no fault of my own. I would give them more than what the divorce settlements typically provide.

The point is that you wouldn't be ABLE to give more than the courts told you too, because you'd be left to live on $400 a month, which is impossible. You wouldn't be able to fix the leaky pipe, paint the house or whatever, because you'd be working a 2nd job just to survive.

Croix de Fer · « **Reply #50 on:** June 24, 2018, 05:21:31 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont on June 24, 2018, 10:30:20 AM

I think that is the way [state marriage licenses automatically registered when getting married by the Church] it is here in the US as well.

No, it's not. It depends on the state. My own state's marriage license is a separate process from getting married by the Church. You can even get a state marriage license without getting married in any religious ceremony.

jvk · « **Reply #51 on:** June 24, 2018, 05:22:08 PM »

I do not agree with pre-nuptial agreements. If my husband were to have asked me to sign one before we got married, I would have been insulted! I should think that two people who are considering something as serious as the sacrament of Matrimony should A) have chosen Godly spouses and B) know the person they're getting married to well enough to know how they handle disputes and whether they have the integrity to stick it out when things get hard. Being asked to sign such a docuмent, even one similar to what Croix suggested, is like being told, "I love you. I don't agree in divorce. I should trust you to keep your vow before God. But deep down I really don't. I think you'll cop out sometime. Or try to manipulate me. Would you mind signing this?"

MaterDominici · « **Reply #52 on:** June 24, 2018, 05:27:41 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 24, 2018, 05:15:58 PM

The Church does not, and never has, condoned long-term separation. A separation would be for 2-4 weeks. Long term separation is immoral.

I've never heard there was a time limit on separation. I'd be interested to see where this is outlined.
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Of course, it's difficult to discuss this fictional docuмent, but I'd presume at whatever point one of the parties deviated from Church teaching, their rights as described in the docuмent would be void.

Croix de Fer · « **Reply #53 on:** June 24, 2018, 05:30:59 PM »

Quote from: jvk on June 24, 2018, 05:22:08 PM

I do not agree with pre-nuptial agreements. If my husband were to have asked me to sign one before we got married, I would have been insulted! I should think that two people who are considering something as serious as the sacrament of Matrimony should A) have chosen Godly spouses and B) know the person they're getting married to well enough to know how they handle disputes and whether they have the integrity to stick it out when things get hard. Being asked to sign such a docuмent, even one similar to what Croix suggested, is like being told, "I love you. I don't agree in divorce. I should trust you to keep your vow before God. But deep down I really don't. I think you'll cop out sometime. Or try to manipulate me. Would you mind signing this?"

But what about women who change after marriage, and they're no longer the person whom the man loved entering the marriage? And she proceeds to "divorce" him? How does the man protect himself and all that he's earned & built from the woman using the courts to take it all?

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #54 on:** June 24, 2018, 05:32:01 PM »

Secondly, you want a man to trust you wholeheartedly and trust in God that a divorce would never happen. Yet in the example you give, a divorce is gotten and she moves out after SHE CHEATED, and that's ok. How is that fair? I don't think the Church would allow her to divorce due to a need for $, so if she did go along with it, she is doing an immoral act.

Let's pretend that a woman didn't do anything wrong and she just needs to separate from the man due to his pornography. Ok, but is she allowed to divorce now, because she *needs* (her emotions) to separate from him? And what if he said he's not giving her $ because he feels the separation is rash, because she won't talk about their problems or go to a counselor? Is she allowed to get a divorce? No.

Lost in all this is the woman's obligation to trust God (just like she expects her husband to trust her and not force a prenup) if marriage gets rough. The marriage vows say for better OR WORSE. Well, when things get worse, you can't go running to the courts to get some "financial security". That's not catholic thinking and is immoral. If you have a legitimate reason to separate for a time, then you must trust in God to provide for you during that brief period, because catholic thinking is that a separation is to HELP THE MARRIAGE HEAL, to lay down consequences, to "wake up" the spouse that is lethargic in their duties. If you go and get a divorce, you are furthering the stress that is already threatening to break your marriage. A separation is meant for prayer, reflection (for both parties, because problems are usually never one-sided) and a change in mindset. It is not a time to give up and get a divorce. Getting a divorce in this situation would NOT be a means to compromise and peace - it would be like throwing gas on a fire.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #55 on:** June 24, 2018, 05:34:29 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 24, 2018, 05:15:58 PM

All of you women are jumping to conclusions and 'worst case' scenarios, when in fact, most divorces are for petty, frivolous and "emotional" reasons.

This conversation is only concerned about Traditional Catholic divorces. I'm not sure your "most" would apply to that group.

Croix de Fer · « **Reply #56 on:** June 24, 2018, 05:35:49 PM »

Quote from: jvk on June 24, 2018, 05:22:08 PM

I do not agree with pre-nuptial agreements. If my husband were to have asked me to sign one before we got married, I would have been insulted!

Not saying this applies to you, but isn't it reasonable to consider that if a woman rejects a prenup, it's an ominous sign that she will also be disobedient to her husband after marriage? If she doesn't trust the man at the moment he wants a prenup and he wants to get married, why should the man think she will be obedient and follow his lead after they're married?

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #57 on:** June 24, 2018, 05:47:09 PM »

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This conversation is only concerned about Traditional Catholic divorces. I'm not sure your "most" would apply to that group.

The example you provided (where I assume you were talking about a trad cath) wherein she got a divorce during a separation for monetary reasons, is frivolous, emotional and petty.

You also assumed that just because a couple was separated that the man would automatically abandon them financially. That's a pretty anti-male attitude, but in our day and age, that's normal. Most women have this type of thinking, even if it's not voluntary. Shows the depths of modernism that we've all been infected with (including me).

Croix de Fer · « **Reply #58 on:** June 24, 2018, 06:04:41 PM »

Quote from: Croix de Fer on June 24, 2018, 08:28:04 AM

Several women have made the argument that when couples get married, they should entrust everything to God, therefore the prenup should be avoided, because a prenup shows a lack of trust in each other, so there must not be real love involved. If that is their argument, then why do they demand a State marriage license, if they entrust their marriage to God, and they feel they and their husbands should try to live up to an ideal spousal trust? Why do they feel they need legal validation from the State?

Can you see the contradiction? The women demand trust of each other (husband & wife) only when the women are allowed to have leverage of taking the husband's hard-earned assets, home & money through a "divorce", and in order to allow this leverage to remain, there should be no outside force (prenup) disrupting it. Conversely and in contradiction, they demand an outside force - the State - to be involved in their marriage in a state contract (license) as a 3rd party.

Wake up from your slumber, "men".

I want a woman, who is opposed to prenups and in favor of State marriage licenses, to address this point. Manipulated "men", you can also comment.

Incredulous · « **Reply #59 on:** June 24, 2018, 06:10:37 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici on June 24, 2018, 05:27:41 PM

I've never heard there was a time limit on separation. I'd be interested to see where this is outlined.
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Of course, it's difficult to discuss this fictional docuмent, but I'd presume at whatever point one of the parties deviated from Church teaching, their rights as described in the docuмent would be void.

I believe Church law allows a permanent separation if one spouse is unfaithful.
No divorce, just live separately.

Poll

Where do you stand on Marriage Prenups and State Marriage Licenses?

Author Topic: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ? (Read 18558 times)

Pax Vobis

Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?

MaterDominici

Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?

MaterDominici

Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?

Pax Vobis

Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?

Pax Vobis

Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?

Croix de Fer

Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?

jvk

Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?

MaterDominici

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Croix de Fer

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Pax Vobis

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MaterDominici

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Croix de Fer

Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?

Pax Vobis

Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?

Croix de Fer

Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?

Incredulous

Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?