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Offline Santo Subito

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Do Traditionalists Ever Have Any Fun?
« on: July 08, 2012, 06:27:28 PM »
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  • Here is a question that myself and many NO friends have regarding the living and conversion to Traditional life. I'm hoping that those on the board can either confirm, or dispel each of these conceptions a lot of Novus Ordites have about living Tradition day to day. A lot of the things on this list scare them off.

    1.) One cannot listen to ANY modern music including rock and pop. Basically anything from the 1950's on that was played on the radio is off limits. This limits all music listening to strictly classical and non 60's folk music. Listening to Jazz is forbidden as are the Blues as they are improvisational and non traditional forms of music. Would swing music be acceptable to listen to? Or is this also a non traditional or ordered form of music?

    2.) One cannot dance at all besides square dancing or traditional ethnic dancing like Greek traditional dancing, Irish step dancing, etc. What about swing dancing? Ballroom dancing? What about salsa or merengue?

    3.) One cannot watch any modern movies, or television shows. The only movies acceptable to watch are Catholic religious movies and cartoons and only those that were not produced after 1965. Besides that even musicals are off limits, such as Sound of Music (see BW). One is forbidden to have cable in one's house.

    4.) Only books from Pre-VCII Catholic authors are to be read unless the books are about math or botany or something with no religious, philosophical, or moral elements. No modern fiction is allowed. Older pre-approved fiction may be allowed such as Shakespeare, or classics, etc. All modern magazines and newspapers are to be avoided except Traditional Catholic ones as they are all liberal propaganda or are imbibed to a greater or lesser degree with corrupting influence. I suppose one should get all news from Catholic Family News, or Remnant, etc?

    5.) One can never go to a pool or beach since, in our modern world, there will certainly be immodestly dressed people there who will serve as scandal and near occasion of sin. Therefore no beach trips or water parks for vacations, ever. No pool memberships. No child can ever join a swim team or take up swimming as a competitive sport for the same reason.

    6.) No dating. No taking a girl out to a restaurant alone as all dates must be chaperoned if dating occurs at all. Young people must always do things in groups or else it would be a near occasion of sin. I suppose to "court" the young man would be invited to hang out with the young lady's family? Not sure how this works.

    7.) No video games. Even if the video game itself is not sexual, violent , or otherwise bad, it causes addiction and wastes time and sucks one into a virtual unreal world. Same goes for internet. Unless you have a filter that you cannot get around that is imposed on the outside, you should never use the internet because it is a constant near occasion of sin.

    8.) Women can never wear pants at any time, for any reason. Even for outside physical labor or chores.

    9.) Women should never play sports because it provokes masculine competitive attitudes.

    10.) Women should not go to college or get any advanced degrees (see BW).

    11.) Young men should not seek to go to university or any advanced profession. Instead they should seek blue collar jobs or "real work" with their hands.

    12.) One should have no close relationships with non-Traditional Catholics as it would be a near occasion of sin to lose one's faith if one hung out in a non-Catholic environment with non-Catholic friends for too long. Same thing with NO Catholics. They are best to be socially avoided. Therefore any socialization should be limited to other Traditional Catholics.

    As a result of the above notions, many NO Catholics, otherwise predisposed to a Traditional piety, avoid the Traditional life. Are the above notions correct or incorrect?

    Also, regardless, what is it that Traditional Catholics do for fun? Is there any joy or levity in the Traditional Catholic life?

    Thank you in advance for any constructive answers. These questions have been weighing on me for some time.

    God bless.

    Offline catherineofsiena

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    Do Traditionalists Ever Have Any Fun?
    « Reply #1 on: July 08, 2012, 06:57:39 PM »
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  • All of your above points are Jansenist when taken to the extreme.  The right has heresies such as rigorism and Jansenism as the left has heresies of feminism and modernism.

    The key is BALANCE.  Being a good Catholic is an interior character that manifests in good external choices.  People who are rigid in the exterior do so because they may not be so strong on the inside and need that extreme of structure.  This is dangerous however, because when they snap, it's ugly.
    For it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be dispersed. Matthew 26:31


    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #2 on: July 08, 2012, 07:06:11 PM »
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  • Thank you, CoS, because the Jansenist / Pharisee streak in trad Catholicism, at its most ugly in an admiration for Hitler -- which is becoming more and more widespread -- is not talked about enough.  

    The devil well knows that people are going to wake up from VII one day, and guess what he wants them to do?  Swing to the opposite extreme.  Wearing jackboots, crushing in the heads of Jews. So we go from extreme to extreme, never finding the truth.  Because people just refuse to submit to the Church, they seek pundits from the world, they accept the world's definition of "left" and "right," they take ideas from non-Catholics about race, etc.

    The "right" is not really "right" -- economic liberalism and the greedy banksters is not really "right-wing," whatever they try to tell you.  Only the Church has the true "right," and Pius XI and Leo XIII both condemned American-style economic liberalism; this is why Catholics were always Democrats until the abortion issue.  Now, because of abortion, they feel they have to share all the ideas of the Republicans, even when they are repugnantly irresponsible, greedy and uncharitable.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #3 on: July 08, 2012, 07:08:40 PM »
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  • A little warning for whoever might be reading:  There is a difference between feeling holy and being holy.  There is a difference between feeling righteous and being righteous.  If you aren't acting like the saints, put here for us as models, and especially, if you do anything Mary wouldn't do, then you are off-track.

    If anyone thinks the Virgin Mary or the saints would have followed Hitler they are utterly delusional, and I'm pretty sick of even talking about it at this point.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #4 on: July 08, 2012, 07:13:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: catherineofsiena
    All of your above points are Jansenist


    Is it Jansenism to avoid immodestly dressed women?
    Is it Jansenism to avoid immoral books, television programs, literature, etc?
    Is it Jansenism to avoid immoral music, which includes most popular music?
    Is it Jansensim to avoid time alone with a member of the opposite sex before marriage?

    All these things can be found in any authentically Catholic moral theology book.

    Calling these things Jansenism is dishonest, as for the nutcase Raoul bringing Hitler into it, that just shows the chaotic and irrational nature of the thinking behind it.

    Quote
    The key is BALANCE.  Being a good Catholic is an interior character that manifests in good external choices.  People who are rigid in the exterior do so because they may not be so strong on the inside and need that extreme of structure.  This is dangerous however, because when they snap, it's ugly.


    That is gobbledygook.  "BALANCE" is a female codeword for "I don't really have to take the religion seriously when it's too inconvenient"


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #5 on: July 08, 2012, 07:15:27 PM »
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  • Raoul, let's remind everyone, is the one who says Jane Austen novels, Charlotte Bronte, Shakespeare, etc, are evil.

    But he has no capacity for internal consistency.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #6 on: July 08, 2012, 07:17:00 PM »
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  • I find it amusing that "going to college" is listed under "fun"

    That's what it's really about for the ladies, isn't it?

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #7 on: July 08, 2012, 07:19:25 PM »
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  • She said that any of these things "taken to extremes" would be Jansenism. I'm not sure I'd agree with "any," but at least some of those things taken to extremes would show a Pharisee spirit like yours, which I'm sure has been proven to people recently through your extraordinary lack of tact or any human feeling with PenitentWoman.

    And yes, if someone said listening to a Beatles song was mortally sinful, they would be Jansenist, or some form thereof.

    If someone said it was sinful for a woman to wear baggy sweat pants while gardening where no one could see here, they would be Jansenist, or some form thereof.

    "Jansenism," of course, is used loosely here.  The Jansenists, specifically, did not want to receive Communion, overdoing the humility to the point that it became pride; because it refused to obey the Church, which encourages frequent communion.

    Phariseeism does not happen the same way twice, it keeps taking new forms, new virulent strains, and there are many in our time. What holds them all together though is that they are based on the letter of the law, not the spirit; on pride; on people who are trying to set themselves apart, like you.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #8 on: July 08, 2012, 07:20:46 PM »
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  • The attitude of the Novus Ordo Catholic is fundamentally pagan.  That's why they got rid of almost all fasting.

    That's why most don't take or follow any of the moral teachings of the religion regarding the sixth commandment seriously.

    How did our ancestors spend their leisure time?

    And how did priests instruct them?

    It's all there in the old books.

    IF you don't like it, it's because you don't like the requirements of the religion.


    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #9 on: July 08, 2012, 07:21:46 PM »
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  • Telesphorus said:
    Quote
    But he has no capacity for internal consistency.


    It is perfectly consistent.  Not accepting your definition of feminism doesn't mean I don't have my own.

    And it's not really even that I don't accept it.  It's the way you are trying to use it to set yourself apart, like you are trying to gain followers, or be somehow the only one who has seen through feminism, as if it's some novel invention, while painting those who take exception to any little point here and there as liberals. You go to extremes; that is the point.  Of course there is some truth to what you say.  But the way you say it, the extremeness of it, the obsessiveness of your behavior, that is the Pharisee aspect.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #10 on: July 08, 2012, 07:23:16 PM »
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  • Shakespeare is Rosicrucian, intentionally or not, as well as full of implied sexual filth, and sometimes more than implied.  Jane Austen teaches girls to be cunning, manipulative brats to get rich men; it is like Sex and the City with modest dress.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 07:26:06 PM »
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  • Quote
    She said that any of these things "taken to extremes" would be Jansenism.


    "taken to extremes"

    Says the man who decries Shakespeare, Jane Austen, Charlotte Bronte, etc

    "Taken to extremes" in woman speak means "actually followed" - if you didn't know that.  Just try to talk about women actually following any rule they're supposed to follow - and see how long before the femitrads start casting aspersions on that person.

    Quote
    which I'm sure has been proven to people recently through your extraordinary lack of tact or any human feeling with PenitentWoman.


    This is where Raoul makes things up.  As is his custom.  I'm not sure I've even said anything to her.

    Quote
    Phariseeism does not happen the same way twice, it keeps taking new forms, new virulent strains, and there are many in our time. What holds them all together though is that they are based on the letter of the law, not the spirit; on pride; on people who are trying to set themselves apart, like you.


    Raoul, you should look in the mirror.  This article by Santo Subito is trash.  Yet you're right on cue to praise it.

    It's not the actual teachings that matter to you.  It's your relative position in the "pecking order" that seems to be what matters to you.  

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #12 on: July 08, 2012, 07:27:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Shakespeare is Rosicrucian, intentionally or not, as well as full of implied sexual filth, and sometimes more than implied.  Jane Austen teaches girls to be cunning, manipulative brats to get rich men; it is like Sex and the City with modest dress.


    There we have it:

    Raoul decries Jansenism of those who say to avoid popular entertainment in the 20th Century, etc,

    decries Jane Austen as Sex in the City.

    That is absurdity.

    The man's thinking is totally chaotic.

    Like bringing Hitler into this.  It's absolutely bizarre.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #13 on: July 08, 2012, 07:31:12 PM »
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  • To compare "Jansenism" of the things above (it's no such thing), or rigorism - to feminism and modernism shows the inability to distinguish between the degree of evil of things.

    I really don't think there are many rigorist trad Catholics.  In fact today's "rigorists" would be the laxists of the past.  That's the reality.

    The cry of "Jansenism" is just a meaningless slur.

    You Jansenist Hitler-lovers - that's about the level of intellect we're dealing with from women who want a pass for behaving like the typical young women behave today.

    Offline Roman55

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    « Reply #14 on: July 08, 2012, 07:31:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: Santo Subito
    Here is a question that myself and many NO friends have regarding the living and conversion to Traditional life. I'm hoping that those on the board can either confirm, or dispel each of these conceptions a lot of Novus Ordites have about living Tradition day to day. A lot of the things on this list scare them off.

    1.) One cannot listen to ANY modern music including rock and pop. Basically anything from the 1950's on that was played on the radio is off limits. This limits all music listening to strictly classical and non 60's folk music. Listening to Jazz is forbidden as are the Blues as they are improvisational and non traditional forms of music. Would swing music be acceptable to listen to? Or is this also a non traditional or ordered form of music?

    2.) One cannot dance at all besides square dancing or traditional ethnic dancing like Greek traditional dancing, Irish step dancing, etc. What about swing dancing? Ballroom dancing? What about salsa or merengue?

    3.) One cannot watch any modern movies, or television shows. The only movies acceptable to watch are Catholic religious movies and cartoons and only those that were not produced after 1965. Besides that even musicals are off limits, such as Sound of Music (see BW). One is forbidden to have cable in one's house.

    4.) Only books from Pre-VCII Catholic authors are to be read unless the books are about math or botany or something with no religious, philosophical, or moral elements. No modern fiction is allowed. Older pre-approved fiction may be allowed such as Shakespeare, or classics, etc. All modern magazines and newspapers are to be avoided except Traditional Catholic ones as they are all liberal propaganda or are imbibed to a greater or lesser degree with corrupting influence. I suppose one should get all news from Catholic Family News, or Remnant, etc?

    5.) One can never go to a pool or beach since, in our modern world, there will certainly be immodestly dressed people there who will serve as scandal and near occasion of sin. Therefore no beach trips or water parks for vacations, ever. No pool memberships. No child can ever join a swim team or take up swimming as a competitive sport for the same reason.

    6.) No dating. No taking a girl out to a restaurant alone as all dates must be chaperoned if dating occurs at all. Young people must always do things in groups or else it would be a near occasion of sin. I suppose to "court" the young man would be invited to hang out with the young lady's family? Not sure how this works.

    7.) No video games. Even if the video game itself is not sexual, violent , or otherwise bad, it causes addiction and wastes time and sucks one into a virtual unreal world. Same goes for internet. Unless you have a filter that you cannot get around that is imposed on the outside, you should never use the internet because it is a constant near occasion of sin.

    8.) Women can never wear pants at any time, for any reason. Even for outside physical labor or chores.

    9.) Women should never play sports because it provokes masculine competitive attitudes.

    10.) Women should not go to college or get any advanced degrees (see BW).

    11.) Young men should not seek to go to university or any advanced profession. Instead they should seek blue collar jobs or "real work" with their hands.

    12.) One should have no close relationships with non-Traditional Catholics as it would be a near occasion of sin to lose one's faith if one hung out in a non-Catholic environment with non-Catholic friends for too long. Same thing with NO Catholics. They are best to be socially avoided. Therefore any socialization should be limited to other Traditional Catholics.

    As a result of the above notions, many NO Catholics, otherwise predisposed to a Traditional piety, avoid the Traditional life. Are the above notions correct or incorrect?

    Also, regardless, what is it that Traditional Catholics do for fun? Is there any joy or levity in the Traditional Catholic life?

    Thank you in advance for any constructive answers. These questions have been weighing on me for some time.

    God bless.


    My answer concerning my own life is: 6-12 with the exception of no. 12, would not be applicable; (internet) with friends like I've had, who needs enemies? Stay clear of Nordo's...They don't know the faith!
    1-5- I'm as guilty as the day is long of.
    Even after becoming a trad, I'm still learning and trying ever harder to avoid the modernist world garbage.  I thought: wouldn't it be wonderful to awake some morning in the fresh spring time; (like they did in the musical, Oklahoma), where life is sweet and pure, love is honest, dealings are honest; always hoping and gaining the best for the other person; the air and spirit about is so wonderfully welcoming?) Well, maybe after the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  She always keeps Her promise.  M.A.R.Y.= Mary Always Remembers You!

     

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