Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Marlelar on July 01, 2013, 01:22:04 PM
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Why does this not surprise me?
Divorced father becomes "Catholic" priest (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/07/01/divorced-father-of-two-becomes-a-catholic-priest/)
Marsha
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What are the requirements for a novus ordo annulment?
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What are the requirements for a novus ordo annulment?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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This quote says it all “A lot of people that I talk to say to me, ‘You have a great background, in terms of you’ve done a lot of things. You’ve been married — you know what marriage is about, the pros and the cons, what happens and how things can go wrong,’” he said. “‘You know what it’s like to try to raise children and the difficulties of parenting children.’”
"You've been married"???
How can a marriage that actually happened be annulled? If he doesn't even contest the fact that he was validly married and experienced married life, then how is an annullment even possible? :confused1:
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Not surprising, given how desperate the councilar church is for "priests".
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What are the requirements for a novus ordo annulment?
Well that's the problem. It's in Canon 1095 of the 1983 Code:
Can. 1095 The following are incapable of contracting marriage:
§1 those who lack the sufficient use of reason;
§2 those who suffer from a grave defect of discretion of judgment concerning the essential matrimonial rights and duties mutually to be handed over and accepted;
§3 those who are not able to assume the essential obligations of marriage for causes of a psychic nature.
§3...a "psychic nature." Sadly, that can be used to cover pretty much anything. In a sermon on WFTS, I think it was Fr Jenkins who said that this is the reason cited in the overwhelming majority of annulments issued these days.
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Why was his "marriage" annulled? Can you imagine going for pre-marriage counseling to this "priest"? He is probably no more a priest than he was a husband. The only thing certain is that he IS a father, in that he has offspring.
:guitar:"Kum-ba-ya, my Lord! Kum-ba-ya!"
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I totally do not agree that this is right however there are legitimate grounds for annulment:
-ligamen (prior bond)
-sacred orders
-impotency
-retarded
-under age
-blood relation or child of adoption
-spiritual relation (baptism or confirmation sponsor)
-disparity of cult without dispensation
-murder previous partner to remarry
-previous public vows of celibacy without dispensation
-kidnapping of bride
-intention to not have children/refusal to consummate marriage
-exclusion of fidelity
-lack of form
-coercion
Doesn't it seem obvious that under the conditions a sacrament could not be conferred?
I believe most US annulments are for "lack of form" (civil ceremony, Vegas little white chapel, beach at Hawaii, etc).
Another issue to consider is that someone who is ex-communicated "latae sententiae" cannot receive any sacraments until it is lifted. Imagine how many Catholics are ex-communicated for participating in an abortion and don't know they are ex-communicated and go through an NO church wedding? Their marriage is invalid.
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§3...a "psychic nature." Sadly, that can be used to cover pretty much anything. In a sermon on WFTS, I think it was Fr Jenkins who said that this is the reason cited in the overwhelming majority of annulments issued these days.
Like necromancy? :laugh1:
Yes I can see someone who has SERIOUS mental disturbances (psychotic, severe delusional schizophrenic) falling under this but wouldn't it be rare that someone showing these traits would even find a mate? Even the laziest NO priest could discern a problem.
What about if someone was totally drunk and strung out on drugs during the ceremony...is it valid?
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Code 1095, as quoted, is vague and useless. And that use of the word "psychic" is downright creepy.
Is code 1095 of the new code the definitive, final word for novus ordo annulments?
Several months back, a novus ordo community house was holding a seminar with a person there who was an advocate for annulments - I wish I had went just so I could have a better grasp on this topic.
I want to understand the annulment phase before I draw conclusions on the Holy Orders following the annulment.
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an advocate for annulments - I wish I had went just so I could have a better grasp on this topic.
Kinda like those guys with a tie and clipboard at all you can eat buffets doing time share or term life insurance seminars?
:facepalm:
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I don't think NO annulments are necessarily just for $$ or just given out on a whim. I've seen the paperwork in two different diocese and they all require a great deal of information. I know my parents marriage was not annulled and this was for my father's third wife with the marriage to my mom ending 16+ years before that.
Society doesn't give an example of marriage with no fault divorce laws now. If people have no example in their family or close relatives they may not really understand how serious it is or what it means when they sign their name or say their "vows." I know for myself when I was young I never wanted to be married or thought of marriage as something warm or even knew that married couples were close. I knew nothing of the birds and the bees too. If you don't know marriage is a good thing or have any concept of it, you really don't know.
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What are the requirements for a novus ordo annulment?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
This.
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What are the requirements for a novus ordo annulment?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
This.
In the two different diocese I looked into the annulment process, neither one would have required me to pay a dime. I'm not defending NO anything just saying $$$ hasn't been my experience.
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Contrast this:
Pius XII's address on October 3, 1941 to the Roman Rota:
As regards declarations of the nullity of marriage, everyone knows that
the Church is rather wary and disinclined to favor them. Indeed if the
tranquillity, stability, and security of human intercourse in general
demands that contracts be not lightly set aside this is still more true
of a contract of such importance as marriage whose firmness and
stability are necessary for the common welfare of human society as well
as for the private good of the parties and the children and whose
sacramental dignity forbids that it be lightly exposed to the danger of
profanation.
with this:
In the early 1970s the incidence of annulment began a meteoric rise, increasing at a rate without precedence in Church history. In 1968 the entire American diocesan tribunal system granted fewer than four hundred "formal case" annulments--those requiring trial by a tribunal. Another one hundred or so decrees of nullity were granted administratively, without benefit of trial. Within ten years, hardly an eyeblink in two millennia of Church history, several diocesan tribunals were each issuing more decrees of nullity annually than had been previously granted in any one year by the American Church as a whole. In 1979, for example, the Archdiocese of Chicago's tribunal granted approximately 1,100 annulments, roughly double the total granted by all American tribunals a decade before.
Viewed cross-culturally, annulment data provide stunning comparisons. The Church in the United States, by a wide margin, has been annulling far more marriages than the rest of the Catholic world combined. In 1980 tribunals worldwide processed 89,065 cases judicially and administratively. Of that number 63,962 (72 percent) emanated from America's busy tribunals. Back then, Vatican statistics published in English did not provide the number of annulments actually granted. Cases processed cannot be equated with decrees of nullity. But at the very least they show that American tribunals were hyperactive compared to tribunals in the rest of the Catholic world.
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I totally do not agree that this is right however there are legitimate grounds for annulment:
-ligamen (prior bond)
-sacred orders
-impotency
-retarded
-under age
-blood relation or child of adoption
-spiritual relation (baptism or confirmation sponsor)
-disparity of cult without dispensation
-murder previous partner to remarry
-previous public vows of celibacy without dispensation
-kidnapping of bride
-intention to not have children/refusal to consummate marriage
-exclusion of fidelity
-lack of form
-coercion
Doesn't it seem obvious that under the conditions a sacrament could not be conferred?
I believe most US annulments are for "lack of form" (civil ceremony, Vegas little white chapel, beach at Hawaii, etc).
Another issue to consider is that someone who is ex-communicated "latae sententiae" cannot receive any sacraments until it is lifted. Imagine how many Catholics are ex-communicated for participating in an abortion and don't know they are ex-communicated and go through an NO church wedding? Their marriage is invalid.
I don't believe the mother is excommunicated "latae sententiae." It appears that anybody facilitating or encouraging the abortion is excommunicated.
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I don't believe the mother is excommunicated "latae sententiae." It appears that anybody facilitating or encouraging the abortion is excommunicated.
That was changed in the 1917 Code of Canon law. Women who have abortions are excommunicated.
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/abortio2.htm
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I don't believe the mother is excommunicated "latae sententiae." It appears that anybody facilitating or encouraging the abortion is excommunicated.
That was changed in the 1917 Code of Canon law. Women who have abortions are excommunicated.
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/abortio2.htm
Yes, canon 2350, yet if the mother is unaware of the censure it is not incurred and she may be absolved by her parish priest with no reservation.
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Yes, canon 2350, yet if the mother is unaware of the censure it is not incurred and she may be absolved by her parish priest with no reservation.
And they won't be aware of it if people say they aren't excommunicated for it.
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Contrast this: Pius XII's address on October 3, 1941 to the Roman Rota:
As regards declarations of the nullity of marriage, everyone knows that
the Church is rather wary and disinclined to favor them. Indeed if the
tranquillity, stability, and security of human intercourse in general
demands that contracts be not lightly set aside this is still more true
of a contract of such importance as marriage whose firmness and
stability are necessary for the common welfare of human society as well
as for the private good of the parties and the children and whose
sacramental dignity forbids that it be lightly exposed to the danger of
profanation.
with this:
In the early 1970s the incidence of annulment began a meteoric rise, increasing at a rate without precedence in Church history. In 1968 the entire American diocesan tribunal system granted fewer than four hundred "formal case" annulments--those requiring trial by a tribunal. Another one hundred or so decrees of nullity were granted administratively, without benefit of trial. Within ten years, hardly an eyeblink in two millennia of Church history, several diocesan tribunals were each issuing more decrees of nullity annually than had been previously granted in any one year by the American Church as a whole. In 1979, for example, the Archdiocese of Chicago's tribunal granted approximately 1,100 annulments, roughly double the total granted by all American tribunals a decade before.
Viewed cross-culturally, annulment data provide stunning comparisons. The Church in the United States, by a wide margin, has been annulling far more marriages than the rest of the Catholic world combined. In 1980 tribunals worldwide processed 89,065 cases judicially and administratively. Of that number 63,962 (72 percent) emanated from America's busy tribunals. Back then, Vatican statistics published in English did not provide the number of annulments actually granted. Cases processed cannot be equated with decrees of nullity. But at the very least they show that American tribunals were hyperactive compared to tribunals in the rest of the Catholic world.
The 70s is when more states started to adopt no-fault divorce laws.
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If we were better off and there were convents that accept 40yo women, I would try to join one when my son reaches adult age. I don't think it's that weird that older people - especially converts want to be religious. If I had known about convents when I was 11, I would have been counting down the days until I could join one. I prayed almost all the time then until I was 13.
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Doesn't that NO also have married deacons that they basically substitute for priests? I thought deacons should only be seminarians.
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What are the requirements for a novus ordo annulment?
Well that's the problem. It's in Canon 1095 of the 1983 Code:
Can. 1095 The following are incapable of contracting marriage:
§1 those who lack the sufficient use of reason;
§2 those who suffer from a grave defect of discretion of judgment concerning the essential matrimonial rights and duties mutually to be handed over and accepted;
§3 those who are not able to assume the essential obligations of marriage for causes of a psychic nature.
§3...a "psychic nature." Sadly, that can be used to cover pretty much anything. In a sermon on WFTS, I think it was Fr Jenkins who said that this is the reason cited in the overwhelming majority of annulments issued these days.
I find it interesting that, even according to Novus Ordo standards, a man who was "incapable" of contracting a valid marriage vow (and living as a married man for 17 years) is now "capable" of making a vow to the priesthood.
This is disgusting even by Novus Ordo standards.
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Yes, canon 2350, yet if the mother is unaware of the censure it is not incurred and she may be absolved by her parish priest with no reservation.
And they won't be aware of it if people say they aren't excommunicated for it.
The problem is the validity of the absolution if and when the grave sin is confessed. Excommunication is mean to be a deterrent to crime and the excommunication reserved to the Bishop isn't applicable if the censure was unknown. This isn't my opinion but the opinion of moral theologians.
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Annulments evaluate things before the marriage took place/at the time of marriage, not later. BTW I'm not making the case that we need convents and seminaries full of civilly divorced people, they should be mostly virgins who entered as teens.
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If we were better off and there were convents that accept 40yo women, I would try to join one when my son reaches adult age. I don't think it's that weird that older people - especially converts want to be religious. If I had known about convents when I was 11, I would have been counting down the days until I could join one. I prayed almost all the time then until I was 13.
There's a Carmel in Northern California that will take older postulants.
http://www.motherofgodcarmel.org/docs/vocations.php
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The problem is the validity of the absolution if and when the grave sin is confessed. Excommunication is mean to be a deterrent to crime and the excommunication reserved to the Bishop isn't applicable if the censure was unknown. This isn't my opinion but the opinion of moral theologians.
I don't understand what this means.
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The problem is the validity of the absolution if and when the grave sin is confessed. Excommunication is mean to be a deterrent to crime and the excommunication reserved to the Bishop isn't applicable if the censure was unknown. This isn't my opinion but the opinion of moral theologians.
I don't understand what this means.
If the excommunication is reserved, then special faculties are required for valid absolution.
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Doesn't that NO also have married deacons that they basically substitute for priests? I thought deacons should only be seminarians.
The NO has what they call Permanent Deacons. They are typically older (say 40+) married men. They can baptize and marry, I don't know if they can preach or bury. They cannot say "Mass". If a deacon's wife dies first he cannot remarry.
I saw one NO bulletin and the contact info for the "deacon" was actually listed as "The Deacon Couple" and had the wife's name included!!!
That is all I know about them.
Marsha
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Doesn't that NO also have married deacons that they basically substitute for priests? I thought deacons should only be seminarians.
The NO has what they call Permanent Deacons. They are typically older (say 40+) married men. They can baptize and marry, I don't know if they can preach or bury. They cannot say "Mass". If a deacon's wife dies first he cannot remarry.
I saw one NO bulletin and the contact info for the "deacon" was actually listed as "The Deacon Couple" and had the wife's name included!!!
That is all I know about them.
Marsha
The Novus Ordo "permanent" deacons can do all things the priest can do except say Mass, hear confessions, or give Extreme Unction (as if the priests are doing those things). They do indeed give the homily at the Novus Ordo, read the Gospel, and officiate at funerals (if there is no Novus Ordo service).
The restrictions on not marrying if the wife dies is no longer in effect in the Novus Ordo, which represents another absolute break from Apostolic tradition. In the archdiocese I am in, I have read of permanent deacons who have married after becoming a deacon, who have married after being widowed, and who have married after divorcing (and, of course, having the marriage "annulled" by the bishop).