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Author Topic: Discerning vocation to monastic life/hermit?  (Read 3517 times)

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Offline Emile

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Re: Discerning vocation to monastic life/hermit?
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2023, 06:50:09 PM »
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  • On the website, what is ordo?

    And what language should we pray in?

    I see there is 2 tridentine versions.
    Is there much difference between them and the Pius X version?
    Is his objectively superior?

    Do I just go through each

    Matutinum Laudes
    Prima Tertia Sexta Nona
    Vesperae Completorium
    Omnes Plures

    One by one throughout the day?
    And what times are they?
    And do they need to be prayed immediately at the start of the hour?
    And how does each one take to pray?
    Is it the same each day of the week?

    Thanks.
    You may want to try the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
    This gives about as simple of a guide as possible:
    https://catholicharboroffaithandmorals.com/Little%20Office%20Ordinary%20Main.html
    Scroll down the left page, click on the hour you want to pray, and it will come up on the right page.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Discerning vocation to monastic life/hermit?
    « Reply #16 on: August 14, 2023, 06:51:26 PM »
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  •   Lauds (dawn), Prime (first hour 6am), Terce (third hour, 9am) Sext (sixth hour, noon), None (ninth hour, 3pm), Vespers (when the "Vesper" star appears, 5pm) and Compline (night prayers, with which all our duties and occupations come to an end).
    Is there a specific time for laudes and compline? Does it change with seasons. I know in winter the sun can rise after 6am. (Even today dawn was 6:28am my local time)

    So basically i do prayers following along the website (or buy a book so i dont have to look at a screen).

    Matutinum - 12am
    Laudes - 5am? Earlier?
    Prima - 6am
    Tertia - 9am
    Sexta - 12pm
    Nona - 3pm
    Vesperae - 5pm
    Completorium - 8pm? 9pm?
    Omnes - ???
    Plures - ???

    Is the above correct? I am not used to 6am being the 'first hour' due to 24 hour time keeping.

    Also does the day start at martin or vesper.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Discerning vocation to monastic life/hermit?
    « Reply #17 on: August 14, 2023, 07:06:55 PM »
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  • Is there a specific time for laudes and compline? Does it change with seasons. I know in winter the sun can rise after 6am. (Even today dawn was 6:28am my local time)

    So basically i do prayers following along the website (or buy a book so i dont have to look at a screen).

    Matutinum - 12am
    Laudes - 5am? Earlier?
    Prima - 6am
    Tertia - 9am
    Sexta - 12pm
    Nona - 3pm
    Vesperae - 5pm
    Completorium - 8pm? 9pm?
    Omnes - ???
    Plures - ???

    Is the above correct? I am not used to 6am being the 'first hour' due to 24 hour time keeping.

    Also does the day start at martin or vesper.

    I apologize for not knowing much about Lauds or Compline, since I only pray the Prime (morning prayer) and evening prayer, the evening prayer of which there isn't a set time for the laity. There isn't really a set time for the laity for morning prayers either.

    I too have wondered about the change in seasons for the prayer times. I think that the times stay the same, regardless of seasons, but hopefully, someone else on the forum can help clarify that, and provide a good resource for the prayers you hope to recite for a 24 hour period, without having to look at a screen. Hopefully there's a book available with those prayers, or a way to print the prayers out from a website, but books are much nicer to pray from, of course.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline moneil

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    Re: Discerning vocation to monastic life/hermit?
    « Reply #18 on: August 14, 2023, 07:27:01 PM »
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  • Is there a specific time for laudes and compline? Does it change with seasons. I know in winter the sun can rise after 6am. (Even today dawn was 6:28am my local time)

    So basically i do prayers following along the website (or buy a book so i dont have to look at a screen).

    Matutinum - 12am
    Laudes - 5am? Earlier?
    Prima - 6am
    Tertia - 9am
    Sexta - 12pm
    Nona - 3pm
    Vesperae - 5pm
    Completorium - 8pm? 9pm?
    Omnes - ???
    Plures - ???

    Is the above correct? I am not used to 6am being the 'first hour' due to 24 hour time keeping.

    Also does the day start at martin or vesper.
    There eight canonical hours.  Many or most monasteries, from my observation of their posted schedules, will typically start Matins at 4 AM followed immediately by Lauds.  Prime is said just before work starts.  The third, sixth, and ninth hours (9 AM, 12 PM, 3 PM are said around those times, or sometimes bunched up into a "daytime" prayer.  Vespers is said when evening begins, however that is defined, but usually before the evening meal is taken.  Compline is said before going to bed. Priests are allowed to anticipate Matins beginning at 3 PM the day before I believe.  One does what one is able.  Hopefully some of the STA former seminarians will share what the practice there was.  As someone suggested, it may be helpful for you to start out with the Little Office of the BVM, or choose Lauds or Prime as morning prayer and Vespers or Compline as an evening prayer, and add more as you start to get the hang of it.

    I don't know what Omnes and Plures are.

    At the bottom of https://www.divinumofficium.com/ is a help tab that is useful.

    This page https://www.divinumofficium.com/www/horas/Help/versions.html shows the differences between the Monastic, Tridentine, and Divino Afflatu (St. Pius X) breviaries, and the impact of the various rubric and calendar changes.

    Some may find https://breviary.net/ easier to use, but there is a subscription fee.

    To know more one is really going to have to read the book, as shown in a link I previously posted.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Discerning vocation to monastic life/hermit?
    « Reply #19 on: August 14, 2023, 07:36:16 PM »
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  • Is there a specific time for laudes and compline? Does it change with seasons. I know in winter the sun can rise after 6am. (Even today dawn was 6:28am my local time)

    So basically i do prayers following along the website (or buy a book so i dont have to look at a screen).

    Matutinum - 12am
    Laudes - 5am? Earlier?
    Prima - 6am
    Tertia - 9am
    Sexta - 12pm
    Nona - 3pm
    Vesperae - 5pm
    Completorium - 8pm? 9pm?
    Omnes - ???
    Plures - ???

    Is the above correct? I am not used to 6am being the 'first hour' due to 24 hour time keeping.

    Also does the day start at martin or vesper.

    Hi Anthony,

    Since we are not in a monastery, we have to set our own schedules. There are ideal times and there are practicable times. I choose the latter.

    Monks and nuns get up at midnight for Matins, but we layfolk have jobs and other duties of state which cause us to require uninterrupted sleep.

    What I find works best for me is to pray Matins, Lauds, and Prime upon waking, which is between four and six in the morning. Oft times I have completed these Hours before six thirty or seven, and that is what I call a good day. On such days, I find completing all the Hours very easy. Whereas if I get a late start and drag things out, I often miss Hours or find myself cramming.

    I don't often take up Terce at nine because after morning Office I take a walk and pray Rosary. By that time I need to rest my mind.

    Often I pray Terce, Sext, and None together in the afternoon after my meal; Vespers in the evening around five or six; and Compline I pray at retiring for the night.

    The Feast Day begins with Vespers the night Before. As soon as Vespers is said, we are in the Feast. Thus, having prayed Vespers earlier, I'm now participating the Feast of the Assumption.

    But the Morning Office begins with Matins.

    I've never heard of Omnes and Plures. Maybe Moneil knows those.

    As for seasons, I've never observed any changes because I recite the Hours according to convenience for my lifestyle. It is best to pray the Hours at or near their appointed times, because the Hymns especially correspond with time of day; but I've never been able to accomplish that feat for any consistent length of time.

    Lastly be very careful about buying the books. You have many headaches and pitfalls there. Before you do, please make a post and we can discuss. Translations pose the biggest problem. As a rule, you want the Latin Vulgate and the Douay English. divinumofficium.com  gives you precisely that, in the Psalms, with only a few deviations here or there in the English.

    Note: As you pray the Office and become familiar with its rhythms, you will begin to recognize the differences among the ranks of Feasts. If today is a duplex and tomorrow a simplex, when I recite Vespers I'm still in the Feast of the day. It is only when tomorrow is a duplex or higher (Moneil or Kaz, correct me if semi-duplex is included in this) that Vespers "changes the clock" to tomorrow. And so forth....... :)

    P.S. O Look!!! Moneil and I are both on it at the same time!!!! :laugh2:


    Offline moneil

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    Re: Discerning vocation to monastic life/hermit?
    « Reply #20 on: August 14, 2023, 07:50:06 PM »
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  • I doubt the "precise" time of when the office is said is that relevant and would change seasonally only if one's personal schedule changes.  The Fr. Hausmann book is very good for sorting these questions and is available here https://www.divinumofficium.com/www/horas/Help/rubrics.html and here https://gspav.org/product/how-to-say-the-breviary/.

    Angelus Press has books with just Vespers and just Compline (both in English), the Little Office of the BVM, the Fr. Hausmann book.  The "My Daily Psalm Book" is very compact and has all the psalms and canticles organized for every breviary hour of each day of the week.  I've used is often but don't particularly care for the translation.  

    Barionis Press https://www.baronius.com/liturgy-traditional-roman.html has the Little Office and a 3-volumn complete Roman Breviary English / Latin, but it is not inexpensive.


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Discerning vocation to monastic life/hermit?
    « Reply #21 on: August 14, 2023, 07:59:28 PM »
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  • On the website, what is ordo?

    And what language should we pray in?

    I see there is 2 tridentine versions.
    Is there much difference between them and the Pius X version?
    Is his objectively superior?

    Do I just go through each

    Matutinum Laudes
    Prima Tertia Sexta Nona
    Vesperae Completorium
    Omnes Plures

    One by one throughout the day?
    And what times are they?
    And do they need to be prayed immediately at the start of the hour?
    And how does each one take to pray?
    Is it the same each day of the week?

    Thanks.

    What language to pray in?

    Massive question, indeed. Again I can only go by my own experience. My first Breviary was the novus ordo model, all English. I got rid of that when I left the novus ordo around the year 2000. My next Breviary book was a nightmare - "Cardinal Bea" Latin and novus ordo English. Some kind man at that time gave me a giant printout of the Psalter in Vulgate Latin and Douay English. This is what I used. I needed a suitcase to pray the Breviary off site!

    As soon as I got the proper Latin and English side by side I started going back and forth between the two languages. Note that by that time I was well versed in the Psalms. By endless comparisons I got to the point where I could pray the Psalms in Latin and understand them, about 95%. Even now some verses boggle me, but I am substantially competent to pray in Latin. All Hymns I pray in Latin, and barely understand them. All Antiphons and Responsories in Latin, with almost perfect understanding. All readings for Matins in English because I cannot understand them in Latin, with the exception of Scripture passages, which are always easier to comprehend. 

    If you are not fluent in Latin, I would STRONGLY recommend you begin in English, using Douay translation. You want to literally steep your mind in the Psalms. You want to memorize them, not word for word, although it often happens naturally that you do memorize a lot of verses, but you want to be intimately familiar with all 150 Psalms. This will come over time, and believe me, it will transform your mind and soul. Believe me.

    The Psalms have an anointing on them, and they have a powerful sanctifying/enlightening effect. Start in English and take your blessed time - I mean a year or two before you come around to the Latin. Knowing the Psalms makes picking up the Latin much, much easier.

    I think your other questions I answered in my previous post.

    God bless you. I'm praying for you! You are about to undertake a mighty work, for which you will be generously rewarded, I'm sure! 

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Discerning vocation to monastic life/hermit?
    « Reply #22 on: August 14, 2023, 08:02:22 PM »
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  • There are slim pickings for a monastery today, but I have known people that created their own monastic life. Or I guess it was more like the life of a hermit, since they didn't live in a community. What they did was get a job that allowed them to focus on God during the day, i.e. a low-level job that didn't require a lot of attention. Then they spent as much time at work praying to God as they could. This job had a low-paying salary, obviously, which they used to get a tiny place to live, and they lived a very simple, frugal life. They used their time at home after work and on weekends to continue their prayer and recollection. They had little contact with others, especially people who weren't traditional Catholics. They helped out a lot at their local chapel and donated a lot of their time to God.

    You could sure do a lot worse than that as a path to heaven, especially if you aren't able to join a monastery for whatever reason.

    Absolutely!!!

    And I think this is what God is calling people to do. Now is not the time for monasteries and convents. It is the time for lay hermits and lay religious. 

    It's much harder to smash scattered units than compounds. 


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Discerning vocation to monastic life/hermit?
    « Reply #23 on: August 14, 2023, 09:10:19 PM »
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  • What language to pray in?

    Massive question, indeed. Again I can only go by my own experience. My first Breviary was the novus ordo model, all English. I got rid of that when I left the novus ordo around the year 2000. My next Breviary book was a nightmare - "Cardinal Bea" Latin and novus ordo English. Some kind man at that time gave me a giant printout of the Psalter in Vulgate Latin and Douay English. This is what I used. I needed a suitcase to pray the Breviary off site!

    As soon as I got the proper Latin and English side by side I started going back and forth between the two languages. Note that by that time I was well versed in the Psalms. By endless comparisons I got to the point where I could pray the Psalms in Latin and understand them, about 95%. Even now some verses boggle me, but I am substantially competent to pray in Latin. All Hymns I pray in Latin, and barely understand them. All Antiphons and Responsories in Latin, with almost perfect understanding. All readings for Matins in English because I cannot understand them in Latin, with the exception of Scripture passages, which are always easier to comprehend. 

    If you are not fluent in Latin, I would STRONGLY recommend you begin in English, using Douay translation. You want to literally steep your mind in the Psalms. You want to memorize them, not word for word, although it often happens naturally that you do memorize a lot of verses, but you want to be intimately familiar with all 150 Psalms. This will come over time, and believe me, it will transform your mind and soul. Believe me.

    The Psalms have an anointing on them, and they have a powerful sanctifying/enlightening effect. Start in English and take your blessed time - I mean a year or two before you come around to the Latin. Knowing the Psalms makes picking up the Latin much, much easier.

    I think your other questions I answered in my previous post.

    God bless you. I'm praying for you! You are about to undertake a mighty work, for which you will be generously rewarded, I'm sure!
    Also should we pray standing kneeling sitting?

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Discerning vocation to monastic life/hermit?
    « Reply #24 on: August 14, 2023, 09:13:37 PM »
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  • I doubt the "precise" time of when the office is said is that relevant and would change seasonally only if one's personal schedule changes.  The Fr. Hausmann book is very good for sorting these questions and is available here https://www.divinumofficium.com/www/horas/Help/rubrics.html and here https://gspav.org/product/how-to-say-the-breviary/.

    Angelus Press has books with just Vespers and just Compline (both in English), the Little Office of the BVM, the Fr. Hausmann book.  The "My Daily Psalm Book" is very compact and has all the psalms and canticles organized for every breviary hour of each day of the week.  I've used is often but don't particularly care for the translation. 

    Barionis Press https://www.baronius.com/liturgy-traditional-roman.html has the Little Office and a 3-volumn complete Roman Breviary English / Latin, but it is not inexpensive.
    "in the form approved by Pope Benedict XVI in Summorum Pontificuм."

    Hmm I may have to pass on a physical copy, or just print a side by side Pius X copy.

    Offline Emile

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    Re: Discerning vocation to monastic life/hermit?
    « Reply #25 on: August 14, 2023, 09:26:47 PM »
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  • Omnes & Plures are just options of which hours to display:

    Omnes = a compilation of all the hours

    Plures = you choose which hours to display


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Discerning vocation to monastic life/hermit?
    « Reply #26 on: August 14, 2023, 09:37:05 PM »
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  • Is there a specific time for laudes and compline? Does it change with seasons. I know in winter the sun can rise after 6am. (Even today dawn was 6:28am my local time)

    So basically i do prayers following along the website (or buy a book so i dont have to look at a screen).

    Matutinum - 12am
    Laudes - 5am? Earlier?
    Prima - 6am
    Tertia - 9am
    Sexta - 12pm
    Nona - 3pm
    Vesperae - 5pm
    Completorium - 8pm? 9pm?
    Omnes - ???
    Plures - ???

    Is the above correct? I am not used to 6am being the 'first hour' due to 24 hour time keeping.

    Also does the day start at martin or vesper.
    Looking at the other site of our Lady little office and comparing the times of the others. I have made this general schedule

    Matutinum - 12am
    Laudes - 3am
    Prima - 6am
    Tertia - 9am
    Sexta - 12pm
    Nona - 3pm
    Vesperae - 6pm
    Completorium - 9pm
    Omnes - ???
    Plures - ???

    So it's generally speaking, every 3 hours. Now that I am on a laptop (not a phone) I can take a proper look at the divinum officium website to get a feel of things. I still need to find out what omnes and plures mean here.  Thanks Emile.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Discerning vocation to monastic life/hermit?
    « Reply #27 on: August 14, 2023, 09:40:13 PM »
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  • Also should we pray standing kneeling sitting?

    Well, my friend, you do what you can. I'm old and have a bad knee, so I sit to pray. You could kneel for certain parts and sit for certain parts. If you are not in a church or monastic choir, you can be less formal. In choir certain rubrics are followed, but we need not worry about that here. What is most important is the heart that wants to give God His praises. 

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Discerning vocation to monastic life/hermit?
    « Reply #28 on: August 14, 2023, 09:41:44 PM »
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  • Looking at the other site of our Lady little office and comparing the times of the others. I have made this general schedule

    Matutinum - 12am
    Laudes - 3am
    Prima - 6am
    Tertia - 9am
    Sexta - 12pm
    Nona - 3pm
    Vesperae - 6pm
    Completorium - 9pm
    Omnes - ???
    Plures - ???

    So it's generally speaking, every 3 hours. Now that I am on a laptop (not a phone) I can take a proper look at the divinum officium website to get a feel of things. I still need to find out what omnes and plures mean here. Thanks Emile.
    Now I don't think I will be able to do all of them at the 'correct' hours all the time but I will do what I can based on my schedule. Once I start doing them I will get a better feel and understanding to how long that take. How slow/fast are these meant to be said?

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Discerning vocation to monastic life/hermit?
    « Reply #29 on: August 14, 2023, 09:50:04 PM »
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  • Now I don't think I will be able to do all of them at the 'correct' hours all the time but I will do what I can based on my schedule. Once I start doing them I will get a better feel and understanding to how long that take. How slow/fast are these meant to be said?

    You say them at a normal pace, the same pace you'd use to pray Paters and Aves. I often stop to consider while praying the Office. I often apply the Psalms and readings and responses to what is happening in my life or in the Church or in the world. They are not to be meditated upon in general, but you cannot help yourself sometimes. 

    Especially at the beginning you will be struck by the beauty and order and majesty of the Office, and this might cause you to ponder and pause more. And that is a good thing. 

    Praying the Office online streamlines the whole affair. Everything is right on the page. No flipping through the books, which really slows you down. 

    It's not a race, and if you cannot say all the Hours each day, try to get Matins in because that is the true proper of the Feast. Lauds and Vespers sometimes have proper antiphons, which also enrich the Feast. Prime is a good prayer for daily graces, and Compline ends the day with most appropriate petitions, and a commemoration of Our Lady.