Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Different degrees of immaturity and selfishness  (Read 3682 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matthew

  • Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 31196
  • Reputation: +27113/-494
  • Gender: Male
Different degrees of immaturity and selfishness
« on: August 27, 2014, 06:29:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The degrees of Selfishness and immaturity are like so many Stations on a railroad line. But the underlying selfishness and unwillingness to sacrifice are very similar across all 5 groups.

    Station 1: The total bum
    This young man gets off the train right away. He basks in selfishness in its extreme form. His entire day is leisure, with a few exceptions. He lives at home, doing as little work or chores as possible.

    Station 2: The selfish worldling
    This young man gets off at the next stop. He doesn't want to be considered a bum, so he learns a trade and/or goes to school for 4 years. But once he's "done his time" his life is essentially like the man at Station 1. The only difference is that he has a degree that he has earned, and might be living on his own. But all that is resting on his laurels. Those laurels cost him nothing now.

    Station 3: The selfish, married worldling
    This young man is like those on Station 2, only he adds the desire to not be considered a lonely reject. He wants to be considered desirable in one MORE way; he wants to be married. It adds that much more to his ego and his "accomplishments". But aside from sharing a home with his wife and losing the "30 year old virgin" status, his life is mostly like Station 2.

    Station 4: The selfish, married non-Catholic with 1-2 kids
    Very similar to Station 3, only you add 1 or 2 children to the mix. These token children are not enough work to drastically change his lifestyle; the kids go to daycare or public school. They go to bed at 8 (since they get up early for school/daycare every day) so he only has to deal with them for a few hours a day. And even then, they often watch TV on their own and largely amuse themselves. He still has much leisure for his own entertainments. He gives a bit more than Station 3, but can still be quite a man-child.

    Station 5: The selfish, married Catholic with 8 kids.
    Like Station 4, only Catholic and therefore he (grudgingly) accepts that birth control isn't an option. Some in this category might opt for a liberal interpretation of "economic hardship" and go with NFP to reduce family size. Others might have the children, but still try to minimize the damage as much as possible: not spend much time with them, pawn off as much childcare as possible on his wife and/or others, etc. His heart races with glee every time he hears a sermon on how the wife is responsible for childcare. He considers that his ONE duty is to earn a paycheck for his family. This is quite convenient for him: His Catholic working man's life isn't THAT different from his co-workers. But his wife's Catholic life is drastically different from most women's lives today. He wants her to take care of "the kids" as much as physically possible. Such Catholics usually send their children to Public School, or a trad school if they can afford it. Homeschool would add too much workload/expense to both parents. His role at home is largely The Ogre; yelling at his kids and trying to keep them out of the way as much as possible. Every hour spent messing with them is one less movie he gets to watch.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com


    Offline Ekim

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 791
    • Reputation: +818/-103
    • Gender: Male
    Different degrees of immaturity and selfishness
    « Reply #1 on: September 02, 2014, 04:59:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "Some people grow up, others just grow old."

    "For without the grace of God there go I."



    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31196
    • Reputation: +27113/-494
    • Gender: Male
    Different degrees of immaturity and selfishness
    « Reply #2 on: September 02, 2014, 05:44:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "When it stings, and you have no rebuttal, there's always the thumbs-down."

    What a pity...

    Yeah, we can't have any Catholic philosophizing on this here Catholic discussion forum...

    I think this post hit too close to the mark for comfort, for one member at least.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline awkwardcustomer

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 457
    • Reputation: +152/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Different degrees of immaturity and selfishness
    « Reply #3 on: September 02, 2014, 06:32:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Matthew,

    Could it be that some of your categories include men with thwarted vocations, and as such are deserving of just a tiny bit of sympathy?

    Which leads me to a question that has been on my mind for some time.  Has any estimate ever been made of the proportion of people, men and women, who would have a vocation to the priesthood and/or the religious life if things were different?  

    In other words, in a truly Catholic society, or world (one can dream), what percentage of children born in that society would have a vocation?  I read somewhere, ages ago, that this has been estimated at 30% but have since not been able to discover any research or writings on this.  But if the estimate is as high as 30%, then a lot of people indeed have been deprived of their vocation, including Traditionalists.




    Offline RomanCatholic1953

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10512
    • Reputation: +3267/-207
    • Gender: Male
    • I will not respond to any posts from Poche.
    Different degrees of immaturity and selfishness
    « Reply #4 on: September 02, 2014, 06:42:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The degrees of selfishness always engaged sin, mortal sin.
    Comes from the lack of faith, hope, and charity. And the
    refusal of accepting sacrifices such as the lost of a love one,
    and lost of personal possessions, in which I have to endure a
    lot in the last five years.
    Why was it necessary to thumb down Mathew's post? Are you
    afraid of the truth.  Or, are you a troll.


    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31196
    • Reputation: +27113/-494
    • Gender: Male
    Different degrees of immaturity and selfishness
    « Reply #5 on: September 02, 2014, 06:55:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Selfishness exists among clerics and religious as well, unfortunately.

    I was focusing my discussion on laymen (which applies to both sexes, incidentally!) -- a group that close to 100% of members here can identify with...

    Vocation, no vocation, thwarted vocation -- selfishness is still the big obstacle to greatness and holiness.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10512
    • Reputation: +3267/-207
    • Gender: Male
    • I will not respond to any posts from Poche.
    Different degrees of immaturity and selfishness
    « Reply #6 on: September 02, 2014, 08:54:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • They think more in becoming the next elected Bishop more than their
    mission of saving souls, and conversions to the true church.
    I heard of a novus ordo priest throwing a fit when someone else
    was appointed bishop, and he left the priesthood and got married
    to a woman protestant minister.

    Offline awkwardcustomer

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 457
    • Reputation: +152/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Different degrees of immaturity and selfishness
    « Reply #7 on: September 02, 2014, 11:19:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Matthew said,
    Quote

    I was focusing my discussion on laymen (which applies to both sexes, incidentally!) -- a group that close to 100% of members here can identify with...

    Vocation, no vocation, thwarted vocation -- selfishness is still the big obstacle to greatness and holiness.


    Your opening post refers exclusively to lay men, not laymen.  But this is a detail.  My point is that you are grouping all lay men, and laymen, into one category ie, individuals with the marriage vocation.

    In the absence of verifiable figures, can it be assumed that a certain, fairly consistent percentage of individuals would, in a truly Catholic world, have a vocation to the priesthood and/or religious life?
    If this is a fair assumption to make, then it follows that a significant number of laymen (ie lay men and lay women) are not following their true vocation.

    My point is that your original post on the failure of some laymen/lay men to live up to the standards required of true Catholic marriage, fails to take account of the distinct possibility that a significant proportion of traditional Catholics do not have the marriage vocation in the first place.  


    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1158/-863
    • Gender: Male
    Different degrees of immaturity and selfishness
    « Reply #8 on: September 03, 2014, 02:37:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: awkwardcustomer
    Matthew,

    Could it be that some of your categories include men with thwarted vocations, and as such are deserving of just a tiny bit of sympathy?

    Which leads me to a question that has been on my mind for some time.  Has any estimate ever been made of the proportion of people, men and women, who would have a vocation to the priesthood and/or the religious life if things were different?  

    In other words, in a truly Catholic society, or world (one can dream), what percentage of children born in that society would have a vocation?  I read somewhere, ages ago, that this has been estimated at 30% but have since not been able to discover any research or writings on this.  But if the estimate is as high as 30%, then a lot of people indeed have been deprived of their vocation, including Traditionalists.





    A truly awesome question which I have considered.  I know several traditionalists who left the seminary in the 60's or later due to modernism and or sodomism.  I looked into the priesthood/religious life from 1994 - 2000.  Carmalites, diocesan Priesthood, Oblates of the Blessed Virgin, Society of Saint John, Society of Saint Peter, The Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word (EWTN).  Communion in the hand was an issue for me as was having to offer the Mass facing the people if it was televised.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline awkwardcustomer

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 457
    • Reputation: +152/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Different degrees of immaturity and selfishness
    « Reply #9 on: September 04, 2014, 08:34:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Lover of Truth said,
    Quote

    I looked into the priesthood/religious life from 1994 - 2000.  Carmalites, diocesan Priesthood, Oblates of the Blessed Virgin, Society of Saint John, Society of Saint Peter, The Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word (EWTN).  Communion in the hand was an issue for me as was having to offer the Mass facing the people if it was televised.


    I have also looked into the religious life.  I'm a convert and this is my twentieth year in the Church. In my first year I discovered, quite by chance, the Traditional Mass and I can remember thinking - THIS is Catholicism.  But it has taken me years to begin to understand what has happened to the Church. I have been through all the stages, from the Indult groups, to the SSPX and now to being almost certain that the Sedevacantists are right.  But what now?  All I know is that I cannot live without the Mass, the true Mass, that is, and the SVs advise against attending 'Una cuм' Masses.  This is part of the reason I avoid Traditionalist groups, who seem to oppose each other as much as they oppose the Conciliarists, and instead I opt for independent priests who offer the true Mass.

    As for vocations, thwarted or otherwise - we are in an emergency situation and I try to imagine what it must have been like for Catholics who lived through the Reformation and saw any hope they might have had for a restoration growing less with every passing year.  In the meantime, what can Traditionalists without the marriage vocation do?  Perhaps the first step lies in acknowledging this and then looking for ways to organise for mutual support and the support of others.  



     

    Offline wallflower

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1866
    • Reputation: +1983/-96
    • Gender: Female
    Different degrees of immaturity and selfishness
    « Reply #10 on: September 04, 2014, 09:49:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • This touches on something from a different thread and I believe that God does not give thwarted vocations. I cannot believe that God gives a vocation where there is no way of materializing it. That would be the height of injustice and cruelty. In times like these, it's not that 30% of the population has thwarted vocations, it's that God simply isn't giving them at all. That's part of our punishment. Many graces (over and above the bare minimum needed for salvation) are withheld. That makes more sense to me than the idea of God dangling it over someone's head knowing full well that it is impossible for them to fulfill.

    A person can thwart their own vocation but that's a different story and not something I would assume applies to most Catholics of good-will.

     


    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1158/-863
    • Gender: Male
    Different degrees of immaturity and selfishness
    « Reply #11 on: September 04, 2014, 12:01:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: awkwardcustomer
    Lover of Truth said,
    Quote

    I looked into the priesthood/religious life from 1994 - 2000.  Carmalites, diocesan Priesthood, Oblates of the Blessed Virgin, Society of Saint John, Society of Saint Peter, The Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word (EWTN).  Communion in the hand was an issue for me as was having to offer the Mass facing the people if it was televised.


    I have also looked into the religious life.  I'm a convert and this is my twentieth year in the Church. In my first year I discovered, quite by chance, the Traditional Mass and I can remember thinking - THIS is Catholicism.  But it has taken me years to begin to understand what has happened to the Church. I have been through all the stages, from the Indult groups, to the SSPX and now to being almost certain that the Sedevacantists are right.  But what now?  All I know is that I cannot live without the Mass, the true Mass, that is, and the SVs advise against attending 'Una cuм' Masses.  This is part of the reason I avoid Traditionalist groups, who seem to oppose each other as much as they oppose the Conciliarists, and instead I opt for independent priests who offer the true Mass.

    As for vocations, thwarted or otherwise - we are in an emergency situation and I try to imagine what it must have been like for Catholics who lived through the Reformation and saw any hope they might have had for a restoration growing less with every passing year.  In the meantime, what can Traditionalists without the marriage vocation do?  Perhaps the first step lies in acknowledging this and then looking for ways to organise for mutual support and the support of others.  



     


    We have taken similar paths.  As a rule I would say CMRI is best, then Independent, then the cult SSPV if you can attend the Mass and stay out of the firing line.  Independent Priests can be quite good as they are not tied to any forced political agenda i.e. SVs are schismatic, CMRI and Thuc are schismatic etc. etc.  

    My thought in your regard is that God knew what would happen with the Church before it happened and knew you would not have a vocation despite having a vocation  :smile: if that makes any sense.  So this does not necessarily mean that you are not called to the marriage life.  It is good you are resigned to not getting married but I would not close myself off to it entirely if I were you, but merely be resigned to God's will, whatever that is, even if His will for you right now is not to know His will.  This truly could be His will for you right now so as to give you the opportunity to prove you desire His will alone no matter what it is.  

    Being single you have the opportunity to live the religious life in a sense.  Going to daily Mass if possible, weekly Confession, to the same Priest if possible, as this is as close as one can come to having a spiritual director if you cannot have one.  You can pray the Office and or the fifteen decade Rosary daily.  Whatever your state in life reasonably allows.  A certain amount of time for spiritual (and theological) reading and meditation (before the Blessed Sacrament if possible) each day.  And some exercise and relaxation each day.  

    When considering the choices out their for marriage, even, and perhaps especially in traddie land, single is not so bad.  I am quite serious.  Most human beings will disappoint you.  But don't close yourself off to marriage unless you are sure you are not called.  Let things take there natural course.  

    Have certain standards for men below which you will not go in regards to Catholic marriage, children, how you educate them, how you dress, whether you will hold different opinions in regards to the crisis at all, and if so will you do so in front of your children or not, (whether you will have a live-in relative in your house (don't! [unless absolutely unavoidable, and lay down the ground rules for that person ahead of time and leave yourself an out, such as them not being able to live with you if you if they do not conform to acceptable behavior before your children for example, or if they side with him against you or vice versa and nose into things they shouldn't]).  Go into potential relationships open to the best result but not counting on it.  Don't make your happiness depend on whether you get married or not or if so and so really loves you or not.  You know all this I'm sure, but sometimes it is good to hear or be reminded of it.  People will eliminate themselves and you will know the right one when you find him.  

    In normal times you may have had a vocation but these, as you know, are not normal times.  And God knows this, so in a sense you really did not have a vocation.  Though you really can live a life consecrated to Jesus through Mary as a religious would without formally being a religious under one with habitual jurisdiction.  And if the right man comes along, he was meant to come along.  If he doesn't he was not meant to.  When one is completely resigned to God's will one will not come off as to rigid to approach or to desperate to be worthy.  

    You could look into CMRI.  They do have sisters and I believe they are relatively safe.  Their official teaching on harvesting organs from the brain-dead is off, and they may be off a bit on NFP but I don't think that should prevent one, especially a sister who will not have to teach on those issues, from a formal religious life with them.  

    Organizing support and mutual support for others?  Please know I am no expert and everything I have written should be taken with a grain of salt but verified or renounced in approved Catholic writings, but in my opinion, just because of the world and how even traditional Catholics are today, even those who go to daily Mass and weekly Confession and are supposedly in a state of sanctifying grace, they just disappoint.   They will do more harm than good and be an occasion of sin to you.  This is generally speaking, my experience, and the experience of my few close friends across the country.  When God comes again He may find neither faith or charity.  It is truly sad.  Priests and laity alike will disappoint, but don't let it scandalize you.  I feel like I'm talking to myself.  You may not benefit from this advice as there could well be many good people who would offer beneficial support.  Just don't be surprised if they don't after appearing like they would and showing initial promise.  

    I would just live my spiritual life alone, of course daily Mass is communal, and socializing can result.  But God alone in the Blessed Sacrament is enough to prop you up in the spiritual life so as to persevere unto the end and die a happy death after a life of daily Mass, Divine Office and or Daily Rosary, spiritual (and theological) reading, rest recreation each day.  

    Again, for your personality, I may have given you the complete opposite of what is best for you in some aspects in regards to eternity, but if you go to Mass, Confession, and pray as much as is reasonably possible you will be guided correctly.  Wear the brown scapular and miraculous medal and consecrate yourself to Jesus through Mary by the way Saint Louis Marie De Monfort, the book can be obtained through Angelus Press.    I'm sure you already know most if not all of this, but I throw it out there just in case one thing I say might benefit you.  

    If I were to follow my own advice I would stay away from this forum more as this can be a hindrance to the spiritual life and an occasion of sin against charity and for pride.  

    But if you keep posting here, can you let us know in a few years how your spiritual life has progressed?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1158/-863
    • Gender: Male
    Different degrees of immaturity and selfishness
    « Reply #12 on: September 04, 2014, 12:07:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: wallflower

    This touches on something from a different thread and I believe that God does not give thwarted vocations. I cannot believe that God gives a vocation where there is no way of materializing it. That would be the height of injustice and cruelty. In times like these, it's not that 30% of the population has thwarted vocations, it's that God simply isn't giving them at all. That's part of our punishment. Many graces (over and above the bare minimum needed for salvation) are withheld. That makes more sense to me than the idea of God dangling it over someone's head knowing full well that it is impossible for them to fulfill.

    A person can thwart their own vocation but that's a different story and not something I would assume applies to most Catholics of good-will.

     


    I understand your thinking here.  But many holy people grew up in the 40's and 50's and later called to the religious life only to have it thwarted.  You point if taken in a certain sense is 100% correct.  But from the perspective of the good willed who felt called only to have it thwarted through no fault of their own it would seem to be somewhat askew.  

    Perhaps the best way to settle the debate would be to remind us that God has an active will and a permissive will.  His active will very well may have wanted so and so to be a religious, while his permissive will allowed it to be thwarted, much as His active will did not want Satan or Adam or Eve or anyone else for that matter to sin, but His permissive will allowed it.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1158/-863
    • Gender: Male
    Different degrees of immaturity and selfishness
    « Reply #13 on: September 04, 2014, 12:09:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Matthew
    "When it stings, and you have no rebuttal, there's always the thumbs-down."

    What a pity...

    Yeah, we can't have any Catholic philosophizing on this here Catholic discussion forum...

    I think this post hit too close to the mark for comfort, for one member at least.


    Well-stated.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1158/-863
    • Gender: Male
    Different degrees of immaturity and selfishness
    « Reply #14 on: September 04, 2014, 12:16:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: awkwardcustomer
    Matthew said,
    Quote

    I was focusing my discussion on laymen (which applies to both sexes, incidentally!) -- a group that close to 100% of members here can identify with...

    Vocation, no vocation, thwarted vocation -- selfishness is still the big obstacle to greatness and holiness.


    Your opening post refers exclusively to lay men, not laymen.  But this is a detail.  My point is that you are grouping all lay men, and laymen, into one category ie, individuals with the marriage vocation.

    In the absence of verifiable figures, can it be assumed that a certain, fairly consistent percentage of individuals would, in a truly Catholic world, have a vocation to the priesthood and/or religious life?
    If this is a fair assumption to make, then it follows that a significant number of laymen (ie lay men and lay women) are not following their true vocation.

    My point is that your original post on the failure of some laymen/lay men to live up to the standards required of true Catholic marriage, fails to take account of the distinct possibility that a significant proportion of traditional Catholics do not have the marriage vocation in the first place.  


    BTW - I once heard that 80% are called to marriage, 10% to the religious life and 10% to the single life.  But this was from a conservative Novus Ordo "Priest".  

    I also heard that the single life is not a vocation but this also was from a conservative Novus Ordo "Priest.  

    It would seem these days, that given the lack of appropriate marriage material available, that the single life is indeed a vocation.  A vocation of renouncing one's own will and not settling or compromising merely for appearance sake or so that slot "A" or "B" can be filled".  

    Again opinions from an unschooled man.  It would be good to a get an answer from an approved Catholic source on this topic.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church