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Author Topic: Detraction - When are We Guilty?  (Read 1698 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Detraction - When are We Guilty?
« on: July 05, 2021, 09:43:58 AM »
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  • In another thread, there was this derailing of the subject towards a debate about detraction, so I thought I'd start a thread about detraction :


    Quote
    Ladislaus wrote:  He was simply taking exception with your accusation of "detraction" (when someone accused Last Tradhican of being pharisaical, and of the sin of pride).  And I agree with him.  Detraction is the revelation of a secret / hidden fault, and isn't in play here.

    How is it not at play here, when the original person accused me of the sin of pride and called me pharisaical (and submitted no evidence whatsoever)?

    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Detraction (newadvent.org)
     Detraction is the unjust damaging of another's good name by the revelation of some fault of which that other is really guilty or at any rate is seriously believed to be guilty by the defamer.
     An important difference between detraction and calumny is at once apparent. The calumniator says what he knows to be false, whilst the detractor narrates what he at least honestly thinks is true. Detraction in a general sense is a mortal sin, as being a violation of the virtue not only of charity but also of justice.

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #1 on: July 05, 2021, 11:04:05 AM »
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  • Even though common sense would tell you as much, I had never heard of detraction being a sin, until I began to learn about the Catholic Faith.

    This was one thing that attracted me to Catholicism.  As I just told my mother a little while ago (I am doing home care for my father this morning), it is not so much that Catholicism differs from other Christian [sic] sects on the matter of "being a good person" or not, it is more that our morality is systematized, logic and reason are employed, and most of all, it is utterly dispassionate --- the same "rules" for everyone, there is none of this "this one believes this" and "that one believes that", it's black-and-white where it's black-and-white, and it's gray where it's gray.  I have a pet theory that this is why educated Catholics make so much better lawyers and judges (six, seven if you count Gorsuch, Supreme Court Justices are Catholic) --- our faith, and our way of thinking, is utterly objective, and we make fair decisions instead of tendentious ones.  (Sotomayor is a product of her times, upbringing, and culture.)


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #2 on: July 05, 2021, 11:56:39 AM »
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  • Relevant




    Per the claims of pride against Tradhican, in the other thread only, I would say it is closer to reviling than detracting, since he was preset for the remarks.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #3 on: July 05, 2021, 12:01:23 PM »
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  • Degrees of gravity in both calumny and detraction:

    DETRACTION
    Just know that detraction can be either mortal or venial, depending on the severity of the behavior being reported, combined with the role/status of the person being detracted against, which may compound the detraction.

    Thus, revealing a fault that you alone witnessed in so-and-so lay person and then passed along to another lay person (an equal of both of you) would normally be confessed as a venial sin.  However, if there was no cause or provocation in which to reveal that fault, one should examine one's conscience about the motive involved: Pride? (competition with that other) A private wish to stir up enmity with tale-bearing (another sin)? Envy? (an opportunity to diminish the stature of the other)

    Heavier level: revealing a grave fault or grave sin in another lay person: Mortal sin.

    Compounded gravity: revealing a hitherto unknown grave fault or grave sin in a consecrated person: Mortal sin.  By definition, if the revelation involves just protection of a vulnerable lay person, then the revelation is not detraction but an act of charity and justice.  However, merely revealing a grave problem or moral condition of a priest or other religious, for the purpose of spite, attention, or vanity would be mortally sinful.

    CALUMNY
    Given that calumny is by definition a lie, it seems not possible for it to be light matter because we are potentially destroying the reputation of another through falsehood.  It's a combination of two violations of justice and at least one violation of charity.

    Compounded level: involving a consecrated person as either the object of false information or the receiver of false information about a member of that person's flock or similar subordinate relationship.

    Three times in the last 8 years I have been the object of calumny at my parish, and in all three occasions that did include deliberate involvement of priests as the receivers of falsehoods.  I am not the only one to have suffered calumny at this parish; at least one other woman has been the object, more often than I, and over the same time period. The calumny was motivated by Envy in all of these cases.  The point is, the reason that the calumny is compounded in that case is that it corrupts the relationship of a lay person with his or her priest & often spiritual director and confessor. 

    Edited to add that the previous sentence comes from a sermon about this by Fr. Ripperger.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #4 on: July 05, 2021, 12:14:28 PM »
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  • How is it not at play here, when the original person accused me of the sin of pride and called me pharisaical (and submitted no evidence whatsoever)?

    Precisely for the reasons cited by Matto.  Detraction involves the revelation of a SECRET or HIDDEN fault.  This accusation of pride was based on your public posting and not based on some personal knowledge that is known to the accuser alone.  Call it a false accusation, perhaps even calumny, but it's not detraction.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #5 on: July 05, 2021, 01:47:13 PM »
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  • Precisely for the reasons cited by Matto.  Detraction involves the revelation of a SECRET or HIDDEN fault.  This accusation of pride was based on your public posting and not based on some personal knowledge that is known to the accuser alone.  Call it a false accusation, perhaps even calumny, but it's not detraction.
    I would disagree with how things went down.  If one were to make a judgment based on the original post (accusation of pride), then it might be a "public" revelation about THAT post.  And, even so, one would need to interpret that same post the same way to make the same judgment (in fact, we have seen that a number of posters in the original thread that did NOT judge it the same way).

    I would say that when someone refers to LT's POSTING HISTORY here, then that is at least detraction despite the fact that all of his posting history is technically "public".  Why?  Because there are many members and lurkers here, many new posters in fact, that may not be aware of "LT's posting history".  Heck, I've been here a long time and I am not aware of all of his posts.  So, in that sense, it was a revelation of a supposed hidden fault.

    If we're all honest with ourselves, we know that none of us are blameless and none of our posting histories are spotless.  In fact, I suspect that each and every one of us are.....prideful at least at times.  

    The whole matter is....ironic.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #6 on: July 05, 2021, 01:51:56 PM »
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  • Per the claims of pride against Tradhican, in the other thread only, I would say it is closer to reviling than detracting, since he was preset for the remarks.
    What do you mean by: "since he was preset for the remarks".
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #7 on: July 05, 2021, 01:58:37 PM »
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  • What do you mean by: "since he was preset for the remarks".
    It was supposed to be "present" but my phone thought otherwise.  :laugh1:

    You were present in the discussion as the remarks were made, so in the case of that thread certain individuals were reviling you. Yet, as 2V pointed out, many of us do not know your posting history, and while that is "public" information if we take the time to look for it, in the context of the present case it would still constitute detraction because these supposed instances would have been hidden from our knowledge of you.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #8 on: July 05, 2021, 02:02:33 PM »
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  • Precisely for the reasons cited by Matto.  Detraction involves the revelation of a SECRET or HIDDEN fault.  This accusation of pride was based on your public posting and not based on some personal knowledge that is known to the accuser alone.  Call it a false accusation, perhaps even calumny, but it's not detraction.
    2Vermont's response is better thought out and precise compared to your few words. Why someone would pick the dustmite on the elephant subject of detraction to chime on that other thread is beyond me? I suppose one could have said "LT, I don't think it can be called detraction, I'd call it an ad-hominem attack, or reviling, or maybe even calumny, God Bless!" But that is not what Matto and you did. Very odd to me, I would not have expected it from both of you. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #9 on: July 05, 2021, 02:11:44 PM »
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  • If one were to make a judgment based on the original post (accusation of pride), then it might be a "public" revelation about THAT post.  And, even so, one would need to interpret that same post the same way to make the same judgment (in fact, we have seen that a number of posters in the original thread that did NOT judge it the same way).
    Why do you think we had some vocal posters in that thread that took the OP personally as a rebuke directed at them?
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #10 on: July 05, 2021, 02:45:13 PM »
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  • 2Vermont's response is better thought out and precise compared to your few words. Why someone would pick the dustmite on the elephant subject of detraction to chime on that other thread is beyond me? I suppose one could have said "LT, I don't think it can be called detraction, I'd call it an ad-hominem attack, or reviling, or maybe even calumny, God Bless!" But that is not what Matto and you did. Very odd to me, I would not have expected it from both of you.
    To be fair to Matto and Ladislaus, I just don't think they thought beyond the OP.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #11 on: July 05, 2021, 03:02:29 PM »
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  • Case in point: I am a lurker and didn't think there was any reason to think he was being Pharasaical (I never saw and refuse to read what everyone is referring too) but now it's in my mind that there might be! I'm still not going to look up what people are referring to but it just shows that detraction is so easy.
    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #12 on: July 05, 2021, 03:03:41 PM »
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  • To be fair to Matto and Ladislaus, I just don't think they thought beyond the OP.

    Matto was not speaking to this specific incident but was just citing a general definition of detraction, which Last Trad construed as an attack ... which it was not.  I was simply chiming in ... in Matt's defense ... with regard to the technical definition of detraction, that it didn't apply here ... with any regard whatsoever to whether the accusations were true or false.  Things can be false without being detraction.  They could be slander or calumny, etc. or some other category or falsehood.

    And I wouldn't have cared except for the fact that Last Trad went after Matto about it as if it were a personal attack, "Et tu, Brute?"

    You can protest that we're arguing technicalities, but it was YOU who misconstrued Matto's clarification as a personal attack, and that's when I decided to chime in, since you had it wrong there.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #13 on: July 05, 2021, 03:09:29 PM »
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  • I would say that when someone refers to LT's POSTING HISTORY here, then that is at least detraction despite the fact that all of his posting history is technically "public".  Why?  Because there are many members and lurkers here, many new posters in fact, that may not be aware of "LT's posting history".  Heck, I've been here a long time and I am not aware of all of his posts.  So, in that sense, it was a revelation of a supposed hidden fault.

    If we're all honest with ourselves, we know that none of us are blameless and none of our posting histories are spotless.  In fact, I suspect that each and every one of us are.....prideful at least at times.  

    The whole matter is....ironic.

    No, the problem came when Matto disagreed with Last Trad's use of the term "detraction" ... which Last Trad took as a personal attack from Matto.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #14 on: July 05, 2021, 03:20:35 PM »
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  • No, the problem came when Matto disagreed with Last Trad's use of the term "detraction" ... which Last Trad took as a personal attack from Matto.
    No, the issue started with Bonaventure's comments.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)