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Author Topic: Should you pray in latin if don't understand the words?  (Read 810 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Should you pray in latin if don't understand the words?
« on: September 05, 2023, 09:42:52 AM »
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  • Title. Is praying in latin worth anything/pleasing to God even if we don't understand the words we are saying?

    Online SimpleMan

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    Re: Should you pray in latin if don't understand the words?
    « Reply #1 on: September 05, 2023, 10:17:34 AM »
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  • Title. Is praying in latin worth anything/pleasing to God even if we don't understand the words we are saying?
    Sure it is.  You may eventually come to understand the words by osmosis.  That's what I've done.  Much to my discredit, I've never sat in a Latin classroom a single day in my life.  I've come to a fairly good understanding through self-teaching and, as I said, osmosis.

    If you already know what the text is in English, it starts to make sense after a while.


    Offline Cera

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    Re: Should you pray in latin if don't understand the words?
    « Reply #2 on: September 05, 2023, 11:12:37 AM »
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  • A good start is the Hail Mary in Latin.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Should you pray in latin if don't understand the words?
    « Reply #3 on: September 05, 2023, 11:29:41 AM »
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  • My dad dropped out of school after 4th grade, but he pretty much knew what every word in the Latin Mass means, even if he didn't understand the finer points of the inflection and grammar ... just from reading a Missal side by side.  So you'll eventually figure out the basic meaning of the words.

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Should you pray in latin if don't understand the words?
    « Reply #4 on: September 05, 2023, 11:39:36 AM »
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  • My dad dropped out of school after 4th grade, but he pretty much knew what every word in the Latin Mass means, even if he didn't understand the finer points of the inflection and grammar ... just from reading a Missal side by side.  So you'll eventually figure out the basic meaning of the words.
    THIS ^^^

    I wouldn't say I know Latin very well but I definitely have learned a lot just from looking at the English next to the Latin in the missal for Mass.

    And as long as we offer up the Latin words and intend to do what the Church does and means by them I think that it is worth it.

    Did every monk understand every Latin word while singing the Divine Office?  I doubt it...  But was it worth it?  Absolutely!

    One does not have to understand the Holy Trinity to submit and agree that it is truth.
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Should you pray in latin if don't understand the words?
    « Reply #5 on: September 05, 2023, 11:42:46 AM »
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  • If you can say the prayers in Latin, why not?  It’s the liturgical language of the Church!  One needn’t know conversational Latin!  Besides, God loves Latin and the devil hates it!  Add a little spice to your prayers!  

    Offline B from A

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    Re: Should you pray in Latin if don't understand the words?
    « Reply #6 on: September 05, 2023, 12:00:39 PM »
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  • When St. Edmund Campion was on the scaffold…  Campion started to pray in Latin, but an Anglican clergyman rudely interrupted him and tried to direct his prayers according to the Protestant form.  “Sir, you and I are not one in religion, wherefore I pray you content yourself.  I bar none of prayer; but I only desire them that are of the household of faith to pray with me, and in mine agony to say one creed.”  When someone cried out that a good Englishman would pray in English instead of Latin, he retorted with his old wit, “I will pray God in a language which we both well understand.” 

    [And in any case, God understands Latin even if we don't.]

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Should you pray in latin if don't understand the words?
    « Reply #7 on: September 05, 2023, 02:26:59 PM »
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  • I think you should pray in the language in which you meditate.

    Some quotes from when this was discussed a few years ago.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/the-vernacular/

    From Mythrandylan
    Because people pray in their mother tongue.  This is a good thing, as prayer is something that should be done with understanding and meaning, both of which are magnified when its in a language you speak, rather than in a language you don't speak.  The eastern liturgies have been in the vernacular for centuries.  And there were western liturgies, now defunct, which were also in the vernacular leading up to Trent.
    .
    Do you have a problem with the faithful following along in their missals in the vernacular, too?
    .
    What about the Apostles, or literally any missionary ever?  They all evangelized in the language of the people they were converting.  None of this has ever been a problem.  No need to make it into one.

    Quote from: ChristusRex1571 on March 23, 2020, 08:37:14 PM

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    This ignores my point that historically Catholics learned basic prayers in Latin and did a lot of their praying in Latin.

    I have heard this claimed often, but I am not convinced it is the case.  The only evidence I've ever seen was in a movie.  I know that many saints, even lay saints like St. Thomas More, prayed in Latin.  But in that case there was a high level of learning and education, and they didn't just know "how to say prayers" in Latin, they knew Latin.
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    Latin is more efficacious. Just like having the Mass be in Latin lets us know this is not an everyday activity, if you pray in Latin it may help you concentrate more and know you are not talking to your friend but to God.


    Latin is more efficacious for practical reasons, not intrinsic ones.  As a dead language it ensures constancy of expression, and therefore (and much more importantly) constancy of meaning for an institution which is responsible for safeguarding and explaining the truths and concepts of the Catholic faith.  But there is nothing intrinsically more worthy about the phonemics of Latin or any other language.
    .
    I would agree of course that one of the effects of Latin is its 'other-worldly' character, but that is a character that exists precisely because people are not native speakers of it.  If we spoke and read fluent Latin, that effect would diminish.
    .
    If Latin had the effect of enabling a person to concentrate more and to know that they are talking to God rather than a friend, I think that would be a subjective rather than objective difference.  If there's evidence that I'm wrong, I'll happily acknowledge it, but I think that I'm not unique in the following: meditative prayer (which is what the rosary is) is more easily meditated when one is not switching between languages, as one would be doing if they prayed in Latin (unless of course they could meditate in Latin, which they probably can't).

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    I am obviously not against people following along in the Missal. But again, if you go to Mass ever Sunday you will likely understand much of the Common in Latin

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    What you will develop an understanding of is what Latin words signal English words.  You will not 'learn Latin' and you will likely not understand Latin in any meaningful sense of the word.  Let me give you an example.  I have a four year old who can pray the Gloria Patri in Latin (we pray our rosaries in English mostly, but our Glory be's in Latin).  I didn't even know she could do it (until I heard he say it once), because I never taught it to her.  She just picked it up by virtue of being around.  But she doesn't know what any of it means.  Not only does she not know that "Gloria Patri" translates to the English "Glory be to the Father," she has absolutely no understanding of the syntactical rules of the language, either.  She is simply repeating what she has heard through habituation.  Heck, she doesn't even understand that she is speaking a language that is not her native one.
    .
    Now, it's a little different with adults because our cognitive functioning is quite a bit better than a small child's.  And a very short prayer, like the Gloria Patri, might be understood the same way that it is in English, or at least close.  But without actually learning the rules of the Latin language and without developing a Latin vocabulary, you can't think in Latin, which means that the best you can hope to do most of the time is see a Latin word and identify its English cognate based on experience.  Are you familiar with Searle's Chinese Room?  That's basically what we're talking about here.  When it comes to understanding a person needs to know more than just how cognates exchange, which is essentially all that (I would maintain) most English-speaking trads 'know' doing when they see some Latin that they 'understand.'
    .



    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Should you pray in latin if don't understand the words?
    « Reply #8 on: September 05, 2023, 03:56:15 PM »
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  • Of course, your native language is what you use for meditative/mental or spontaneous prayer. Yet with vocal prayer, the forms that the Church has given us through Tradition, see below from St. Francis de Sales, Introduction to the Devout Life, Part Second, Chapter One (fyi: page 62 in the TAN 2010 edition).

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    I recommend you to say the Lord's Prayer, Hail Mary, and Creed in Latin. But you must at the same time thoroughly understand the words in your own language: so that whilst you join in the universal language of the Church, you may appreciate the blessed meaning of those holy prayers, which you must say, fixing your thoughts steadily, and arousing your affections, not hurrying in order to say many prayers, but endeavoring that what you say may come from your heart. For one Lord's Prayer said with devotion is worth more than many recited hastily.

    There you have it from a Doctor of the Church: quality (i.e., in Latin), not quantity.

    Also, the thing about Latin is all those declensions and case endings, which determine the meanings of each sentence (as to who/what is doing what by/for/from/to/with/etc.), thus precision really does matter with those final syllables. Better to take your time little by little with the Latin, glancing over at the vernacular translation as needed.

    Another hint: Look online for subtitled video or audio files of well-known Latin hymns. Singing, even quietly to yourself, really does help with comprehension and recall since the words become linked in the mind with the tonality of the hymn.
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus