Author Topic: would you ever marry a NO? (Read 7963 times)

Raoul76 · « **Reply #45 on:** February 17, 2011, 01:42:57 PM »

glaudius_veritatis said:

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Raoul76 said:
Does that mean that marrying into the Novus Ordo is God's will? I doubt many traditional priests would concur.

Did contracting a mixed marriage in pre-V2 days mean the Catholic was "marrying into" the sect/false religion? It seems that saying so would be a bit of a stretch, to put it mildly.

I'm not sure how that slipped by... My guardian angel must have been on a coffee break. I didn't mean that, of course.

I realize now why you are nitpic -- taking me to task about doing God's will. It is because I said I'd NEVER marry a Novus Ordo woman. I would date her and give her a year or so to learn about "traditionalism." You apparently see this as being closed-off to the will of God, I see it more as the will of God willing that I not marry someone in the Novus Ordo.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #46 on:** February 17, 2011, 01:57:01 PM »

Myrna said:

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Marriage can be an instrument of conversion, yes?

It can also be an instrument of apostasy. Have you ever seen how married couples often take on the personalities and opinions of their partners?

Yes, to your question. If you are already married to someone who is a Prot or atheist or what have you, if you're stuck in that situation, you should do your best to bring them around.

But to be a traditional Catholic and to throw yourself into shark-infested waters by marrying a NO? Presumably you've dated them for a year or so, and that hasn't changed them, so how would a ring change anything? Sure, it might, but you're also risking your soul.

It smacks of overconfidence to me. Should I go into a brothel, right into one of the boudoirs, and risk temptation in the hopes of saving a prostitute? But prostitutes need conversion too, don't they?

I think people have to be really careful because -- this is one of my little theories -- I believe the "dream guy" or "dream girl" is often the wrong person. I believe these are often marriages based on little more than lust, and that this has been a major factor in the rise of Vatican II, marriages that are displeasing to God. Such a dream partner may appeal to us on a base, instinctive level that we cloak in all kinds of pious sentiments. But God wants us to look beneath the surface. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a physical attraction, but I don't think it should be OVERWHELMING. There are certain women that make me feel feverish and dizzy and obsessed, and others that make me feel calm and peaceful -- the latter is the kind I would marry, even if there was less bestial attraction.

Someone can easily be seduced away from religion entirely by marrying the wrong person, or seduced into a false religion... It happens all the time, and I'd say, far more often than the alternate. God doesn't ask us to throw ourselves into risky situations to save someone; it's supposed to happen more naturally. In such a case, is it really that you're marrying this person in order to "convert" them, or is that you have an attraction to them that you can't or don't want to resist and so you give yourself an excuse? Again, how often do you think it's really God's will to marry someone who fervently embraces the Novus Ordo? I think someone doing this would be delusional.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #47 on:** February 17, 2011, 03:35:45 PM »

Raoul, somehow you missed my sentence above, "If a traditional Catholic was dating a staunch NO Catholic, I doubt the courtship would go so far as them wanting to take a walk to the altar anyway."

You see we agree, on this more than disagree.

Sigismund · « **Reply #48 on:** February 17, 2011, 05:42:40 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

Sigismund said:
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You think there is no chance at all that the marriage could have been invalid and that the tribunal was right?

No, there is no chance.

Do you know what basically the only reason is under REAL Catholic law for invalidating a marriage? Impotence. Well, this couple has kids. BUSTED.

What are the stats, Tele? Do you have the actual numbers? I know it's something ridiculous, like 500 divorces over a decade pre-Vatican II, and then in the 60's, there are tens of thousands of divorces.

I don't see why impotence should invalidate a marriage unless it was in play before the marriage. If it began after the marriage was consummated, would it?

I also can't agree that emotional or psychological immaturity or mental illness could not invalidate a marriage. If people are incapable of really understanding or committing to a Catholic marriage, how could it be valid? Also, what about a couple who uses contraception and is not open to children. It seems to me that this is arguably invalid. As an aside, this would be far less of an issue if more priests actually believed what the Church teaching about birth control and marriage.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #49 on:** February 17, 2011, 06:03:52 PM »

Quote from: Sigismund

If it began after the marriage was consummated, would it?

No :)

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #50 on:** February 17, 2011, 06:13:09 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

You apparently see this as being closed-off to the will of God, I see it more as the will of God willing that I not marry someone in the Novus Ordo.

The ideas we have mentioned so far are but two sides of the one coin of truth where this matter is concerned. I totally agree that the general rules are absolutely sound and exist for very good reason. That is why, in the past, one had to get permission to contract a mixed marriage. Sadly, that is not possible at the moment, as the priests of Traddieland do not possess offices, nor even the faculties to marry people. They do so, sure, but that is not the same as possessing the faculties to do so.

FWIW, I was not seeking to nitpick, but saw an idea that was clearly amiss/expressed amiss and felt it should be addressed. No biggie. C'est la vie :)

Clodovicus · « **Reply #51 on:** March 12, 2011, 12:27:13 PM »

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Quote from: spouse of Jesus
A NO or a very liberal person tells you that s/he is catholic and respect all your choices and plans.
Does it mean you can marry without sharing in his/her actions?

Objectively speaking, you could. But would it be right, or desirable? I would not say so.

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For example if you are a woman and your NO husband wants pay a visit to a mosque, he won't force you to accompany him, but you will have to iron his shirts, tell him what to wear and then say "God speed" as he goes there.
And if you are a man and have such a wife you may have to drive her to that mosque and then fetch her, though "you are free to go home if you don't like to come in".

Then comes the habit of TV watching where everything is OK because s/he is not watching it for lust, but for education and entertainment! Whether by a satelite (as is closed Countries) or by TV (as in free societies) s/he spends 4 hours a day before TV. You will have to take children out lest they see what mom/dad is gazing at. It doesn't end here. s/he might ask you to keep him/her comapny and "lets watch it together".

You may have fought strong temptations for many years with the hope of being appreiciated by a future spouse. But he puts an end to your dream:" what ever sin you might have commited before marriage is all OK to me."
Any ideas?

That's an extreme situation, but I would not offer my blessing on a wife who went to a buddhist temple or meeting; in fact, in that situation, I'd likely knife the tires on the car before I'd let it happen, because it's mortal sin, and if I really cared for her soul, especially since I'm married to it, I would attempt to prevent it. I certainly could not in good conscience approve it, or not do anything to curtail or prevent it. But then if this was what I had courted, I probably would not have engaged it to begin with, as it would only get rockier if she did not express an interest or will in changing. I don't think it's a good thing to be in a "mixed" relationship, as the Church has condemned them. So no, I would not marry a liberal novus order, Protestant, Atheist, etc. As the purpose of the marriage could not be fulfilled.

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Quote from: MrsZ
Frankly, I'm a little wary of any internet "Friend" or "Dating" type sites, even for Traditional Catholics. Even with the best of intentions, it can create the opportunity for intimate conversations that wouldn't be the case if the people were meeting face to face with their family in their midst.]/quote]

Less than desirable situations can occur in any venue where communication is possible. Obviously, for an early meeting, the family in the midst would keep things clean, but long term, the relationship can hit a brick wall when frank conversations about important subjects cannot be brooked openly. There are matters of consequence of opinion, such as religion and details about their personalities, that won't be displayed in the presence of a "judge", so they won't be as frank with each other, and it may not turn out if a chaperon is present at all times. It may also prompt them to attempt to communicate behind the chaperon's back, which is not a precedent that would be healthy. If they're putting on a face for the family, there is not as much opportunity to converse with the real person. Better to know who they really are up front than to find out later. Let's just hope and pray that they have the maturity and good character and maintain it.

spouse of Jesus · « **Reply #52 on:** March 12, 2011, 10:18:14 PM »

Many people are indeed misguided for no fault of their own. I have met people who say very very strange things about our faith. And if you ask them :"who said that???" they say that it is what a priest or some man/woman in the church told them. or worse:" it is what the nun in that movie was doing."
Yes they are people who paid a visit to a church out of curiousity and were trying to ask questions. But they are misfortunate enough to meet ignorant people there. (or those afraid to speak about their faith).
So not every NO is really guilty especially when there is no exposure to tradition.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #53 on:** March 12, 2011, 11:32:17 PM »

You wouldn't be slightly prejudiced now, would you, spouse? :surprised:

There's an easy answer to this, already alluded to by Clodovicus. If you are dating someone who is Novus Ordo, give them a trial period, explain tradition to them. If they show themselves to be completely uninterested or hostile, I would take a walk. It's easier said than done though.

Spouse, we are often told not to judge, but that works both ways. Just like we can't judge if someone has evil intent, we also can't judge if they're innocent in the eyes of God. Many who are in the Novus Ordo HAVE been exposed to tradition and have rejected it with vigor. Many are in the Novus Ordo not only because they have been indoctrinated that way, but because they genuinely like it, I'm sorry to say. They genuinely don't want to hear the truth and like this watered-down form of religion lacking the power thereof ( St. Paul ).

PartyIsOver221 · « **Reply #54 on:** March 13, 2011, 03:21:55 AM »

Quote from: Raoul76

Spouse, we are often told not to judge, but that works both ways. Just like we can't judge if someone has evil intent, we also can't judge if they're innocent in the eyes of God. Many who are in the Novus Ordo HAVE been exposed to tradition and have rejected it with vigor. Many are in the Novus Ordo not only because they have been indoctrinated that way, but because they genuinely like it, I'm sorry to say. They genuinely don't want to hear the truth and like this watered-down form of religion lacking the power thereof ( St. Paul ).

Wow, this is SO TRUE!

I wish everyone would wake up and realize this.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #55 on:** March 20, 2011, 04:10:23 PM »

The Novus Ordite in the original post sounds like a closet Muslim!

The problem with the question is that, in today's crisis, an "NO Catholic" could mean ANYTHING from a flaming liberal, pro-choice, Obama loving, pro-gαy marraige, rainbow sash liturgical dancer to an "NO Catholic" who goes to the Motu Mass, attends a reverent NO on occasion, and believes in Catholic morality and dogmas 100%.

That said, if you are currently a Traditional Catholic, I'm not sure why you wouldn't aim to open yourself up to other Traditional Catholics as potential marriage partners as your first choice.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #56 on:** March 20, 2011, 04:12:03 PM »

The kind of NO Catholics who despise Tradition and won't listen to it, most certainly wrote this wikipedia article. It exemplifies their fact twisting, biased, condescending authoritarian nastiness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottaviani_Intervention#cite_note-3