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Author Topic: Debate That Will Split The Atom  (Read 12412 times)

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Offline IllyricumSacrum

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Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
« Reply #75 on: March 27, 2025, 03:46:10 PM »
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  • Just post the link. If you make a claim, then the burden of proof is on you to back it up with a citation of some sort. Also, post a link proving Jay Dyer is a jew as you claim.
    Relevant quote:

    That’s Eugene before and after his miraculous transformation into “Father Seraphim.” It’s strange enough that a native Californian would join the Russian Orthodox Church, but even stranger is that Seraphim had earlier rejected Christianity for atheism, according to Wikipedia. He studied Chinese philosophy and graduated from – where else? – UC Berkeley in 1961 with a thesis on Lao Tzu. So he must have come out of the same program that spit out Ted Kaczynski just a few years later. Only one year after graduation we find Seraphim joining the San Francisco chapter of the Russian Orthodox Church. Do you really think his spiritual journey at UC Berkeley led him from atheism to Taoism to ultra-conservative Christianity? Of course not. He was recruited to infiltrate the church and delegitimize it from the inside. The Families hate any type of true religious orthodoxy, because it discourages consumerism and dysfunctional sex, two things that greatly profit the Families. It’s no surprise that we find a whole section titled “Controversies” on Seraphim’s Wikipedia page. That was his job – to create doctrinal pseudo-controversies that further splintered the church. In Scott’s biography of her uncle, she reveals that he was a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ based on letters he wrote to his friend Walter Pomeroy, but then she claims he suddenly stopped being gαy when he joined the church, even though it was his gαy partner who frst “introduced” him to the Russian Orthodox Church. Why would a gαy man in 1960s San Francisco be into ultra-conservative Christianity in the frst place? None of the life stories of these Intelligence agents make a lick of sense, which is why they get writers like Scott from the same Intel-running Families to spin the inconsistencies and misdirect you from the obvious truth. Even Scott admitted in an interview that “the failure to secure the actual scene of [Tupac’s] shooting and interview witnesses immediately doomed the investigation,” but she never questions whether there was a shooting to investigate or any witnesses to interview in the frst place.

    milewmathis.com/2pac.pdf

    Offline Univocity

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #76 on: March 27, 2025, 04:11:20 PM »
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  • Relevant quote:

    That’s Eugene before and after his miraculous transformation into “Father Seraphim.” It’s strange enough that a native Californian would join the Russian Orthodox Church, but even stranger is that Seraphim had earlier rejected Christianity for atheism, according to Wikipedia. He studied Chinese philosophy and graduated from – where else? – UC Berkeley in 1961 with a thesis on Lao Tzu. So he must have come out of the same program that spit out Ted Kaczynski just a few years later. Only one year after graduation we find Seraphim joining the San Francisco chapter of the Russian Orthodox Church. Do you really think his spiritual journey at UC Berkeley led him from atheism to Taoism to ultra-conservative Christianity? Of course not. He was recruited to infiltrate the church and delegitimize it from the inside. The Families hate any type of true religious orthodoxy, because it discourages consumerism and dysfunctional sex, two things that greatly profit the Families. It’s no surprise that we find a whole section titled “Controversies” on Seraphim’s Wikipedia page. That was his job – to create doctrinal pseudo-controversies that further splintered the church. In Scott’s biography of her uncle, she reveals that he was a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ based on letters he wrote to his friend Walter Pomeroy, but then she claims he suddenly stopped being gαy when he joined the church, even though it was his gαy partner who frst “introduced” him to the Russian Orthodox Church. Why would a gαy man in 1960s San Francisco be into ultra-conservative Christianity in the frst place? None of the life stories of these Intelligence agents make a lick of sense, which is why they get writers like Scott from the same Intel-running Families to spin the inconsistencies and misdirect you from the obvious truth. Even Scott admitted in an interview that “the failure to secure the actual scene of [Tupac’s] shooting and interview witnesses immediately doomed the investigation,” but she never questions whether there was a shooting to investigate or any witnesses to interview in the frst place.

    milewmathis.com/2pac.pdf
    Lol. How silly. Have you never met converts from strange backgrounds?  Do you think Jesus Christ has stopped converting sinners?  I have met trads from all manner of backgrounds: atheism, new age-ism, rosicrucianism even.  It is outrageous to suggest that one who is seeking truth in college might not pass through widely varying ideologies on his way. This is practically the norm at this point.  

    The only controversies listed on Wikipedia are those wherein he opposed modernist reinterpretations of traditional doctrines on creation and the toll houses.  This is not causing confusion but combating it.  Fr Seraphim Rose led a Godly life after leaving his life of sin and truly repenting, living a serious life of ascesis and inspiring many to do the same.  God grant that we all might have such repentance, and not judge the past (or current) sins of our brothers but rather our own.


    Offline IllyricumSacrum

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #77 on: March 27, 2025, 04:54:26 PM »
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  • Lol. How silly. Have you never met converts from strange backgrounds?  Do you think Jesus Christ has stopped converting sinners?  I have met trads from all manner of backgrounds: atheism, new age-ism, rosicrucianism even.  It is outrageous to suggest that one who is seeking truth in college might not pass through widely varying ideologies on his way. This is practically the norm at this point. 

    The only controversies listed on Wikipedia are those wherein he opposed modernist reinterpretations of traditional doctrines on creation and the toll houses.  This is not causing confusion but combating it.  Fr Seraphim Rose led a Godly life after leaving his life of sin and truly repenting, living a serious life of ascesis and inspiring many to do the same.  God grant that we all might have such repentance, and not judge the past (or current) sins of our brothers but rather our own.
    Seethe

    Offline drphil

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #78 on: March 27, 2025, 08:45:03 PM »
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  • I'm not gonna comment on anything else on this thread because I said I wouldn't argue for Orthodoxy here, and I stand by that promise.  With that being said this is just an incredibly uncharitable assumption IMO.  It seems far more reasonable to believe that these Orthodox are trying to bring Catholics to Orthodoxy because they believe its true, even if it is in fact mistaken.  Just as is the case the other way around.  I don't assume that Orthos who convert to Catholicism are trying to drag souls into hell on purpose.  Why would I assume that? 

    Now, TBH, I do think as far as it goes that advocacy of Orthodoxy is outside the scope of this forum (the only reason I am a member here is because I was Catholic in good standing when I joined).  But even there, I would assume people are just in their view putting their concern for souls over the rules of the forum.  Assuming they actually want people to go to Hell is *really* uncharitable, and I doubt it.
    No, his accusation is not a stretch at all and i'm sure i'm not the only one who can be at least personally certain of it. Ik some Dyer fans have organized group-chats on Twitter where they specifically discuss Orthodox apologetics and going about how to get Catholics to convert specifically. Some are very "debate bro" minded and like the groypers with Nick Fuentes, treat Dyer as a cult of personality where they take every word of his as infallible fact. Ik this because I was in a similar groupchat of "groypers" who did the same but for Novus Ordo, Pro Bergoglio apologetics. One of them was in both group chats. Both cesspools of highly egotistical types. 

    Offline drphil

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #79 on: March 27, 2025, 08:49:30 PM »
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  • Jay Dyer used to be a Dimondite, and was even going to join their "monastery" at one point.  He was a sedevacantist for years. He knows their position and it's arguments far better than the Dimonds know Orthodoxy.  He won't debate them, but I forget why. I want to say that they never responded to his request to debate years ago, but I could be wrong.  I also believe they refuse to debate him in return, probably saying he is "of bad will," which appears to be their evaluation of anyone more educated than themselves.

    Ubi Petrus, however, who has several refutation videos of Dimondite claims, has publicly challenged them to a debate recently. I would certainly watch it, but even just watching the Dimond videos vs th Ubi videos, it shows that Fred and Bob are seriously outclassed.  A debate against Bishop Sanborn would be far more interesting.
    Jay Dyer is a hot head who loves smelling his own farts. Everything he says or claims should be in question. He is very slimy and uses heinous words and bad faith argumentation against Roman Catholics. He is insufferable to say the least.  


    Offline WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #80 on: March 27, 2025, 09:28:14 PM »
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  • Surely, due to both camps having valid Sacraments and devotion to Christ and His Blessed Mother, the Dimonds and Jaybird can find far more common ground than differences in identifying the global Jєωιѕн specter, thereby, increasing the resistance to the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan.

    :popcorn:

    Offline Univocity

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #81 on: March 27, 2025, 10:25:55 PM »
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  • Surely, due to both camps having valid Sacraments and devotion to Christ and His Blessed Mother, the Dimonds and Jaybird can find far more common ground than differences in identifying the global Jєωιѕн specter, thereby, increasing the resistance to the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan.

    :popcorn:
    Well I'm sure regarding geopolitics and the jq they would agree on much, but those things are not what either party thinks is the most important... so the common ground doesn't go that far.  Also, the Orthodox do not recognize roman catholic sacraments. 

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #82 on: March 28, 2025, 11:34:02 AM »
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  • Well I'm sure regarding geopolitics and the jq they would agree on much, but those things are not what either party thinks is the most important... so the common ground doesn't go that far.  Also, the Orthodox do not recognize roman catholic sacraments.
    It’s kind of a disputed question.  Not all Orthodox agree on whether Catholic sacraments are valid or not. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #83 on: March 28, 2025, 11:56:02 AM »
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  • It’s kind of a disputed question.  Not all Orthodox agree on whether Catholic sacraments are valid or not.

    Which ones do some consider invalid and why?  Mostly the Novus Ordo Rites or also the Traditional?

    Offline SoldierofCtK

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #84 on: March 29, 2025, 10:27:02 AM »
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  • I'm not sure what the point would be of such a debate. The two sides have been dug in for a thousand years and wiser, holier men haven't been able to bridge the differences.

    I think it would be a benefit for those who converted to EO or are on the fence to hear the truth about the matter. Often I think debates are for persuading the audience, not the opponent. Dyer being a perceived authority for the online apologists have led many men away from Tradition, using the conciliar church as a strawman and saying "their grass is greener." He's built his reputation by defeating ill-prepared debaters, much like Ben Shapiro.

    I've come across a few sneaky online EO apologists in the YouTube comment sections avoiding direct questions. The one group tries to lure you into a discord server to dog-pile you, getting you away from the main chat.
    +J.M.J.+

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    Offline VerdenFell

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #85 on: March 29, 2025, 11:26:09 AM »
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  • I think it would be a benefit for those who converted to EO or are on the fence to hear the truth about the matter. Often I think debates are for persuading the audience, not the opponent. Dyer being a perceived authority for the online apologists have led many men away from Tradition, using the conciliar church as a strawman and saying "their grass is greener." He's built his reputation by defeating ill-prepared debaters, much like Ben Shapiro.

    I've come across a few sneaky online EO apologists in the YouTube comment sections avoiding direct questions. The one group tries to lure you into a discord server to dog-pile you, getting you away from the main chat.
    That is all true but ultimately it is God who is going to lead you to the true faith and nothing can circuмvent that, especially some dime store theologian like Dyer who has a propensity for wearing bad Hawaiian shirts.
    There are tens of millions of people led astray by the gibberish of Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Elizabeth Claire Prophet, Paula White, James Martin, etc...take your pick. Are we to debate all of these fools?
    "I know mine and mine know me."


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #86 on: March 29, 2025, 11:44:59 AM »
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  • Which ones do some consider invalid and why?  Mostly the Novus Ordo Rites or also the Traditional?
    I’ve never actually heard this distinction in Orthodoxy, I’ve never heard of someone saying the novus ordo is invalid but the traditional rites are valid

    the debate as far as I understand it is if you can actually have sacraments or sacramental grace outside the Church to begin with.  in my experience, those who say no usually say no, just across-the-board.  

    and to preempt the possible question of whether this belief is donatism, I don’t think so because from what I understand donatism is denying that unworthy ministers IN the church have valid sacraments.  The sacraments of schismatics (which from the EO perspective would be the papacy in general whether novus ordo, sede, or whatever in between grade), would be a separate question


    tbh I don’t have a huge dog in the fight myself; im more than willing to admit I just don’t know; but I’ve seen people with very strong opinions on both sides 

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #87 on: March 29, 2025, 11:45:39 AM »
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  • I’ve never actually heard this distinction in Orthodoxy, I’ve never heard of someone saying the novus ordo is invalid but the traditional rites are valid

    the debate as far as I understand it is if you can actually have sacraments or sacramental grace outside the Church to begin with.  in my experience, those who say no usually say no, just across-the-board. 

    and to preempt the possible question of whether this belief is donatism, I don’t think so because from what I understand donatism is denying that unworthy ministers IN the church have valid sacraments.  The sacraments of schismatics (which from the EO perspective would be the papacy in general whether novus ordo, sede, or whatever in between grade), would be a separate question


    tbh I don’t have a huge dog in the fight myself; im more than willing to admit I just don’t know; but I’ve seen people with very strong opinions on both sides
    Admittedly, the amount of abuses that exist in the NO particularly kinda make me hope it’s not valid 

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #88 on: March 29, 2025, 11:48:09 AM »
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  • That is all true but ultimately it is God who is going to lead you to the true faith and nothing can circuмvent that, especially some dime store theologian like Dyer who has a propensity for wearing bad Hawaiian shirts.
    There are tens of millions of people led astray by the gibberish of Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Elizabeth Claire Prophet, Paula White, James Martin, etc...take your pick. Are we to debate all of these fools?
    "I know mine and mine know me."
    Comparing the thousand plus year old RC vs EO debate to those new cults is kinda lazy imo, and I would say the same to any EO who said that about RC

    to be clear I’m not a particularly massive fan of Dyer, I’ve listened to him a little bit and I like some of his ideas but I agree he can be obnoxious and I think in general focus on personal piety is better for most people than apologetics.  And as far as it goes I prefer Craig Truglia over Dyer.


    but I think the comparison here is just weak

    Offline drphil

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #89 on: March 29, 2025, 12:02:51 PM »
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  • Comparing the thousand plus year old RC vs EO debate to those new cults is kinda lazy imo, and I would say the same to any EO who said that about RC

    to be clear I’m not a particularly massive fan of Dyer, I’ve listened to him a little bit and I like some of his ideas but I agree he can be obnoxious and I think in general focus on personal piety is better for most people than apologetics.  And as far as it goes I prefer Craig Truglia over Dyer.


    but I think the comparison here is just weak
    From my experience, Dyer is not much better than those examples. he is a person who is very nasty to Catholics in discords and twitter spaces where he can get away with such. he has very little custody over his foul mouth toward those he sees as opponents and that speaks volumes in and of itself. no amount of books in his background will change how he is mask off.