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Author Topic: US orthodox church has a low % of women  (Read 2540 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: US orthodox church has a low % of women
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2025, 08:34:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on March 28, 2025, 06:58:42 AM
    Their religious zeal is usually tied to and ecclipsed by ethnic nationalism.

    We see that some in the Catholic Eastern Rites as well, and in fact when you have both, say, Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukrainian Catholic, it also inspired a certain amount of "Ecuмenical" sentiment, due to this IMO undue / exaggerated emphasis on that ethnic nationalism (the recent rift due to Ukrainian Orthodox ties to Russia notwithstanding ... but that's just one example).

    Meanwhile, we have the Roman Rite in the West that crosses so many national boundaries that there's almost no association with any culture or ethnicity, except for on a micro-leve, where for instance, in a Polish neighborhood the Catholic Church might just happen to consiste 95% of Poles.
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    Offline VerdenFell

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    Re: US orthodox church has a low % of women
    « Reply #16 on: March 28, 2025, 09:15:15 AM »
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    • I can speak with some familiarity regarding the Orthodox church because half my family was raised in it.
    This thread started off speculating on how all these newly converted Orthobros might be sadly disappointed
    at the dearth of single Orthodox women. 
    Orthodox churches are almost exclusively comprised of people from a particular Eastern European background, so
    some wasp or American mutt who listens to Jay Dyer and joins a Greek, Serbian, Russian church is going to be 
    surrounded only by Greeks, Serbian, Russians depending upon the church. Their culture is going to be very alien to them.
    And let me tell you, these people are very clanish, have their own language, ethnic customs, foods, social circles. 
    The ethnic element easily outweighs the religious element by a ratio of 90/10. 
    If you happen to find a single Orthodox woman past 30 she's probably been divorced already and she probably won't be interested in a man who isn't the same ethnicity. 
    I haven't bothered to look up the statistics but it's not at all uncommon to meet Orthodox women and men who have been married, divorced, remarried multiple times. It doesn't even raise an eyebrow as you get 3 chances in that religion. I've even known Orthodox priests who were divorced and remarried. 
    I'll relate a funny story:
    There was a big social event at an Orthodox church in my area about 15 years ago. They had some well known
    bands playing their folk music, which I happen to like, so I decided to check it out. 
    These events are more or less a pretext to drink a lot and meet a member of the opposite sex.
    I remember being treated like a leper even though I thought my name and physiognomy would allow me to blend in.
    Nope, as my father later explained, "if they don't know you they don't want to know you."
    Perhaps things have changed since then as more families have assimilated to American culture.
    Things are just as bad in tradland if you're a single male. I can't recall the last time I've seen a single Catholic woman between the ages of 22-50 at a TLM in my area, and I've been to all of them: indult, FSSP, SSPX, etc.

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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: US orthodox church has a low % of women
    « Reply #17 on: March 28, 2025, 09:48:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: VerdenFell on March 28, 2025, 09:15:15 AM
    If you happen to find a single Orthodox woman past 30 

    .
    Things are just as bad in tradland if you're a single male. I can't recall the last time I've seen a single Catholic woman between the ages of 22-50 at a TLM in my area, and I've been to all of them: indult, FSSP, SSPX, etc.
    I think it's about the lack of young ladies not older women.

    That last statement is quite sad. Are you financially ready for a marriage? Do you feel rejected by the parents? Also why 22-50? If there are none in that age range then doesn't that mean the girls get married younger? So would you say there are single girls in the 16-21 age bracket?
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    Online Yeti

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    Re: US orthodox church has a low % of women
    « Reply #18 on: March 28, 2025, 09:57:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on March 28, 2025, 06:58:42 AM
    Not obligated in Eastern canons to what we westerners call "Sunday obligation", their attendance at Divine liturgy can be very spotty
    .

    Oh, interesting. They don't have to go to church on Sunday? That might explain a lot of the enthusiasm for schism today among people who want to leave traditional Catholicism.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: US orthodox church has a low % of women
    « Reply #19 on: March 28, 2025, 10:11:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on March 28, 2025, 06:58:42 AM
    How many on this forum know cradle Orthodox personally? Not converts, but cradle?

    Their religious zeal is usually tied to and ecclipsed by ethnic nationalism. Not obligated in Eastern canons to what we westerners call "Sunday obligation", their attendance at Divine liturgy can be very spotty with women -- older women -- attending more frequently than men. Further, for North America, the further one is generationally from Orthodox immigrants, the less one practices Orthodoxy, eventually abandoning Orthodoxy for "none-ism".

    If this sounds similar to North American Catholics that is because it is.

    What is the difference between Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbs? Beats me! Both match the description given above, but they certainly consider themselves to be wholly different and agressively incompatible even if their languages and cultures are so similar and they come from a common Balkans fatherland. By third or fourth generation in America, neither is Catholic or Orthodox in any meaningful way.

    Also reminds me of an Irish American in her 50s who once said to me:  " Oh yeah! I was raised Catholic. When I was young, my family would break bread (???) at Christmas and Thanksgiving dinner and always went to the St. Patrick's Day Parade."  🤯

    I knew one, Syrian-American Antiochene Orthodox.  Her ethnicity and religion were all of a piece.  

    I'm reminded of that scene from My Big Fat Greek Wedding where Ian was baptized.  They said "now he's Greek!".  I just wanted to gag.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: US orthodox church has a low % of women
    « Reply #20 on: March 28, 2025, 10:21:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: VerdenFell on March 28, 2025, 09:15:15 AM
    Orthodox churches are almost exclusively comprised of people from a particular Eastern European background, so
    some wasp or American mutt who listens to Jay Dyer and joins a Greek, Serbian, Russian church is going to be
    surrounded only by Greeks, Serbian, Russians depending upon the church. Their culture is going to be very alien to them.
    And let me tell you, these people are very clanish, have their own language, ethnic customs, foods, social circles.
    The ethnic element easily outweighs the religious element by a ratio of 90/10...
    I remember being treated like a leper even though I thought my name and physiognomy would allow me to blend in.
    Nope, as my father later explained, "if they don't know you they don't want to know you."

    How true.  Actually, I am thankful they are as insular as they are --- it kills any temptation I might have to become Orthodox.  The only Orthodox environment I could even remotely blend into, would be Russian or Ukrainian, and even then, it's a world apart.

    I have a ton of experience with Polish-in-Poland Catholics, and I can tell you first-hand, they expect you to swallow absolutely everything about their culture and religiosity, and not to question things in any way, a kind of Slavic "Law of Jante".  I never quite fit in.  (And it makes them kind of squishy when you actually know basic conversational Polish.  I found that they expected you just to be able to say "dziekuje" --- "thank you" --- and tell them, via a translator, how wonderful their food and hospitality is.)
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    Offline Everlast22

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    Re: US orthodox church has a low % of women
    « Reply #21 on: March 28, 2025, 10:47:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on March 27, 2025, 09:29:24 PM
    This was always normal in the past but a lot of modern people are brainwashed into thinking an age gap is bad, or that the power imbalance is 'sexist'. A man should have 'power/authority' over his wife, it helps her to trust and admire him more, which secular women have issues 
    I agree, my wife is 11 years younger than me, and I do feel she relies and trusts me more because I am established and have more life experience. Most women today are very selfish, but also very good at hiding it. Even in "Trad" spheres. (my opinion)
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    Offline VerdenFell

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    Re: US orthodox church has a low % of women
    « Reply #22 on: March 28, 2025, 11:00:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on March 28, 2025, 09:48:54 AM
    I think it's about the lack of young ladies not older women.

    That last statement is quite sad. Are you financially ready for a marriage? Do you feel rejected by the parents? Also why 22-50? If there are none in that age range then doesn't that mean the girls get married younger? So would you say there are single girls in the 16-21 age bracket?
    It's difficult enough finding a single white woman without tattoos, a baby daddy, who isn't a leftist, hasn't been vaxxed, isn't a moloch worshipper, etc.
    A single trad Catholic woman of child bearing age? Maybe they exist, maybe the Loch Ness monster exists but I haven't spotted either in the wild. 

    Oh, and I wanted to add something else to my other post regarding Orthodox and Eastern European women in general. 
    Generally speaking their good qualities are:
    Much more feminine and stylish than their American counterparts.
    Much less inclined to date outside their race
    More conservative politically
    More family oriented, more into traditional gender roles.
    More cultured, you can talk to them about art, literature, poetry, philosophy. 
    The accent!

    The bad qualities:
    Very guarded and reserved emotionally. I've seen this with Polish, Romanian, Russian, Serbian women. Both the ones born here and in the old country.  
    If you're seeking romantic gestures and demonstrative declarations of love..forget it. The only
    way to know that they like/care about you is if they are still with you.
    A bit more materialistic, high maintenance in terms of maintaining their appearance. 
    Kind of humorless(could be due to English being a second language)
    I think those who grew up partially under communism in the Eastern block were greatly affected by it.
    They tend not to be romantic or idealize things, almost practical and sensible to a fault. The 1st generation
    Americans are very ambitious, go getter types. 






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    Offline WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat

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    Re: US orthodox church has a low % of women
    « Reply #23 on: March 28, 2025, 11:25:24 AM »
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    • I briefly courted a Ukrainian woman in her 30s, never married, from Ukraine, baptized Ukrainian Orthodox, poor English as she's only been here since after the war started. No tattoos. Natural attractiveness. Amazing eyes like a cat. She seemed, at least, somewhat traditional. But I detected she was selfish and an aspiring worldling. Whenever I informed her of some ill health of my aging mom, never did she ask me about how she is doing in subsequent interactions.

    I knew of another Ukrainian woman about the same age but here in the States a lot longer, and fluent in English, but littered with tattoos.

    No thanks.

    I'll take Russian women, indeed.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: US orthodox church has a low % of women
    « Reply #24 on: March 28, 2025, 01:19:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on March 27, 2025, 09:34:29 PM
    Also for a women 30+ is very late to start having children from a biological stand point. 35 is considered a geriatric pregnancy (though I would personally argue 30 is geriatric, though I haven't checked the 'science')

    While a man having children at 30 is no big deal, there will be only around 5-10% of sperm degradation in terms of quality compared to their early/mid 20s. (I am unsure if this is true or modern (((science))) ).

    Essentially even if the man's fertility is slightly lower by 40 he can still have many children with little genetic issues, while a women past 35 (even 30) just doesn't have the time to have many children and has a much higher risk of having abnormalities with the children.
    It is possible to have a decent size family after 30.  All of my children were born to me after 30.

    In trad circles, the girls choose to be single or leave because the example of marriage from parents was poor.  

    So how do we encourage stronger marriages that teach men and women proper behavior.  How do people bring joy back to the family?

    Just for clarity, I write this to get people thinking, not because I have some secret agenda.:cowboy:

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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: US orthodox church has a low % of women
    « Reply #25 on: March 28, 2025, 06:51:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on March 28, 2025, 01:19:02 PM
    It is possible to have a decent size family after 30.  All of my children were born to me after 30.

    In trad circles, the girls choose to be single or leave because the example of marriage from parents was poor. 

    So how do we encourage stronger marriages that teach men and women proper behavior.  How do people bring joy back to the family?

    Just for clarity, I write this to get people thinking, not because I have some secret agenda.:cowboy:
    What do you consider to be a decent size family?
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: US orthodox church has a low % of women
    « Reply #26 on: March 28, 2025, 10:15:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on March 28, 2025, 06:51:25 PM
    What do you consider to be a decent size family?
    My opinion is a decent size for Catholic standards is 7 (5 children). 
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"
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