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Author Topic: Debate That Will Split The Atom  (Read 8665 times)

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Offline Predestination2

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Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2025, 05:17:11 PM »
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  • I think the area that the Dimond's will struggle with is the issue that Dyer, Ubi Petrus and David Erhan would most assuredly zero in on, and that is the Pseudo Isidorian decretals, the Symmachian forgeries and the Donation of Constantine. I have implored the Dimonds on many occasions to address this with a video, as the implications are quite serious,  and not only have they ignored it, they censored my request on other video comment sections.


    My next best alternative was to ask Bishop Sanborn on a recorded Q&A with Stephen Heiner and they censored me as well. I realize the issue is unknown amongst most Catholics, but it is a serious one that EO apologists have been making hay with as of late. By ignoring or censoring the topic, it implies a point for the Eastern side.
    i remember +Sanborn answered the part about the donation of constantine
    Vatican 2 was worse than both WW1 and WW2 combined.
    So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 
    Tried 6,000,000 pushups, only got to 271K

    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #31 on: March 12, 2025, 05:17:16 PM »
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  • I've never heard of these arguments before, thanks for sharing!

    Isn't papal supremacy and primacy argued more from Scripture, Tradition and the Church Fathers?
    It would depend on who ask. I would look into the issue yourself. I would say look at the arguments, but in this case, the EO are the only ones talking and when you see the consequences, you can understand why.
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle


    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #32 on: March 12, 2025, 05:18:45 PM »
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  • i remember +Sanborn answered the part about the donation of constantine
    No, he really didn't because he said that "no one contested it", which is a lousy argument. 
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #33 on: March 12, 2025, 05:28:26 PM »
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  • No, he really didn't because he said that "no one contested it", which is a lousy argument.
    ledeg, can you answer my reply to your reply on "catholic origins of fascism and national socialism"
    Vatican 2 was worse than both WW1 and WW2 combined.
    So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 
    Tried 6,000,000 pushups, only got to 271K

    Offline SoldierofCtK

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #34 on: March 12, 2025, 06:09:23 PM »
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  • It would depend on who ask. I would look into the issue yourself. I would say look at the arguments, but in this case, the EO are the only ones talking and when you see the consequences, you can understand why.
    I'm a mere novus ordo escapee without the benefit of having a Trad upbringing or seminary training. Can you summarize the problem(s) you see arising from these EO arguments you brought up? Or sources of rebuttals from the Church? The internet can be a minefield of error and I don't have the stomach to sit through hours of Dyer-tribe on YouTube, haha
    +J.M.J.+

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    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #35 on: March 12, 2025, 07:30:10 PM »
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  • I'm a mere novus ordo escapee without the benefit of having a Trad upbringing or seminary training. Can you summarize the problem(s) you see arising from these EO arguments you brought up? Or sources of rebuttals from the Church? The internet can be a minefield of error and I don't have the stomach to sit through hours of Dyer-tribe on YouTube, haha
    I will have to give you the cliff notes, as I don't have the time to drill down and do the subject justice.


    Pope Leo IX, on the eve of the schism with the East, cited nearly all of the Donation of Constantine as the sole basis for his authority to excommunicate Michael Cerularius. This docuмent was later admitted to be a forgery and is the first docuмented case for it being used as authoritative. It was subsequently used by about a dozen other later popes to assert their own authority. What's also interesting in the docuмent that was authored by Leo IX is that he asserted that the East was guilty of removing the filioque from the Creed, when it was the exact opposite, as it was the West that later added it.

    What begs the question about the citation by Leo IX of the authoritative basis for his excommunication was that there was no other source he could have used? He didn't even cite Matthew 16:18, which in modern apologetics, it would have been a go-to "duh" citation for this subject. Thus, the tragedy of the schism of the East was based in part on a forged docuмent. In other words, a lie. You can research this on New Advent. The Catholic Encyclopedia cites that the forgery was fabricated somewhere between 750-850 BC and was generally considered authentic until the 15 century and exposed as forgery in 1440 in treatise of Lorenzo Valla, a Catholic priest. Ironically, Church canonists and prelates prior would charge anyone who questioned the authenticity Donation of Constantine as being under suspicion of heresy. In addition, arguably the greatest Church historian of all time, Baronius, confirmed it's inauthentic background.

    The Pseudo Isidorian forgeries and the Symmachian forgeries require more in depth descriptions and citations. They had a major impact on the Decretum of Gratian, which was the basis of 12th century Canon Law, and which eventually was the basis of the 1917 Code of Canon Law and the well known "the pope is judged by no one" law, which is in fact an after effect of the forgeries. These forgeries also had an effect on St Thomas Aquinas, as he unknowingly used false citations by St Cyril of Alexandria in his Cantea Aurea, "Against the Errors of the Greeks", which then were subsequently used in the Catechism of Trent.
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #36 on: March 12, 2025, 08:01:33 PM »
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  • I will have to give you the cliff notes, as I don't have the time to drill down and do the subject justice.


    Pope Leo IX, on the eve of the schism with the East, cited nearly all of the Donation of Constantine as the sole basis for his authority to excommunicate Michael Cerularius. This docuмent was later admitted to be a forgery and is the first docuмented case for it being used as authoritative. It was subsequently used by about a dozen other later popes to assert their own authority. What's also interesting in the docuмent that was authored by Leo IX is that he asserted that the East was guilty of removing the filioque from the Creed, when it was the exact opposite, as it was the West that later added it.

    What begs the question about the citation by Leo IX of the authoritative basis for his excommunication was that there was no other source he could have used? He didn't even cite Matthew 16:18, which in modern apologetics, it would have been a go-to "duh" citation for this subject. Thus, the tragedy of the schism of the East was based in part on a forged docuмent. In other words, a lie. You can research this on New Advent. The Catholic Encyclopedia cites that the forgery was fabricated somewhere between 750-850 BC and was generally considered authentic until the 15 century and exposed as forgery in 1440 in treatise of Lorenzo Valla, a Catholic priest. Ironically, Church canonists and prelates prior would charge anyone who questioned the authenticity Donation of Constantine as being under suspicion of heresy. In addition, arguably the greatest Church historian of all time, Baronius, confirmed it's inauthentic background.

    The Pseudo Isidorian forgeries and the Symmachian forgeries require more in depth descriptions and citations. They had a major impact on the Decretum of Gratian, which was the basis of 12th century Canon Law, and which eventually was the basis of the 1917 Code of Canon Law and the well known "the pope is judged by no one" law, which is in fact an after effect of the forgeries. These forgeries also had an effect on St Thomas Aquinas, as he unknowingly used false citations by St Cyril of Alexandria in his Cantea Aurea, "Against the Errors of the Greeks", which then were subsequently used in the Catechism of Trent.
    are we 100% sure that the donation was forged. how do we KNOW baronius was right
    Vatican 2 was worse than both WW1 and WW2 combined.
    So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 
    Tried 6,000,000 pushups, only got to 271K

    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #37 on: March 12, 2025, 08:11:05 PM »
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  • are we 100% sure that the donation was forged. how do we KNOW baronius was right
    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05118a.htm

    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]This docuмent is without [/color]doubt[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] a [/color]forgery[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], fabricated somewhere between the years 750 and 850. As early as the fifteenth century its [/color]falsity[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] was known and demonstrated. [/color]Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] (De Concordantiâ Catholicâ, III, ii, in the Basle ed. of his Opera, 1565, I) spoke of it as a [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]dictamen apocryphum[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]. Some years later (1440) Lorenzo Valla (De falso credita et ementita Constantini donatione declamatio, Mainz, 1518) [/color]proved[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] the [/color]forgery[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] with [/color]certainty[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]. Independently of both his predecessors, Reginald Pecocke, [/color]Bishop[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] of [/color]Chichester[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] (1450-57), reached a similar conclusion in his work, "The Repressor of over much Blaming of the Clergy", Rolls Series, II, 351-366. Its genuinity was yet occasionally defended, and the docuмent still further used as authentic, until [/color]Baronius[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] in his "Annales Ecclesiastici" (ad an. 324) admitted that the "Donatio" was a [/color]forgery[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], whereafter it was soon universally admitted to be such. It is so clearly a fabrication that there is no reason to wonder that, with the revival of historical criticism in the fifteenth century, the [/color]true[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] character of the docuмent was at once recognized.[/color]
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle


    Offline Godefroy

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #38 on: March 13, 2025, 05:28:11 AM »
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  • The Pseudo Isidorian forgeries and the Symmachian forgeries require more in depth descriptions and citations. They had a major impact on the Decretum of Gratian, which was the basis of 12th century Canon Law, and which eventually was the basis of the 1917 Code of Canon Law and the well known "the pope is judged by no one" law, which is in fact an after effect of the forgeries. These forgeries also had an effect on St Thomas Aquinas, as he unknowingly used false citations by St Cyril of Alexandria in his Cantea Aurea, "Against the Errors of the Greeks", which then were subsequently used in the Catechism of Trent.
    This is rabbit hole that I'm just begining to discover. I had often wondered by what right William the Conqueror replaced all the Saxon bishops when he invaded England in 1066. It turns out that he had a papal mandate, because the Saxon Church wouldn't bend to Rome. https://youtu.be/DZrM1NvPv1E? Many Saxons nobles exiled themselves to Constantinople and joined the Varengian Guards of the Emperor follwing the defeat at Hastings. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #39 on: March 13, 2025, 06:29:35 AM »
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  • Why is LeDeg still on this forum as he continues to promote the schismatic Orthodox?

    We have promoters of Orthodoxy who have been allowed to stay on this forum, various Novus Ordo trolls who were allowed to stay on here for far too long when it was clear that they joined just to wreak havoc, and slanderers like jorgec who have a personal vendetta and therefore will stop at no calumny in order to attack their adversaries?  We've had multiple Salza/Siscoe accounts here, and then XavierNishant showing up on a regular basis and allowed to stay even after being exposed, and then there were multiple other Conciliar trolls here who came on here only to shill for Trump last October and then disappeared.

    CathInfo is becoming a forum for slander, open schism/heresy (I mean the declared type like Eastern Orthodoxy not disputed questions), and Novus Ordo trolling.

    Offline SoldierofCtK

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #40 on: March 13, 2025, 07:06:22 AM »
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  • I will have to give you the cliff notes, as I don't have the time to drill down and do the subject justice.
    Thank you. I've never been a history buff, but this seems worth looking in to.

    Even though the Isidorian texts were forgeries, they were based on legitimate sources. I imagine there must have been other reasons for Pope Leo IX to have excommunicated Cerularius.

    I've come across a few times the schismatics "cry forgery" when in fact it was due to someone disagreeing with their "saints." For now, I will continue to watch this thread as I dig a little deeper into the argument at hand.
    +J.M.J.+

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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #41 on: March 13, 2025, 10:39:41 AM »
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  • Why is LeDeg still on this forum as he continues to promote the schismatic Orthodox?

    We have promoters of Orthodoxy who have been allowed to stay on this forum,
    various Novus Ordo trolls who were allowed to stay on here for far too long when it was clear that they joined just to wreak havoc, and slanderers like jorgec who have a personal vendetta and therefore will stop at no calumny in order to attack their adversaries?  We've had multiple Salza/Siscoe accounts here, and then XavierNishant showing up on a regular basis and allowed to stay even after being exposed, and then there were multiple other Conciliar trolls here who came on here only to shill for Trump last October and then disappeared.

    CathInfo is becoming a forum for slander, open schism/heresy (I mean the declared type like Eastern Orthodoxy not disputed questions), and Novus Ordo trolling.

    Here we go again. Laddie has found another "promoter" to burn in his bonfire. Convenient. You can avoid the "slander" of calling someone a heretic, and yet reduce them to ashes all the same. Lol

    If one is Catholic because they believe Catholicism to be TRUTH, false claims made by, and attributable to, Catholicism are not only motes in Catholicism's eye, but perhaps even daggers in its heart. I would hope all Catholics in pursuit of truth would agree with that. If Catholicism is not TRUTH, you might as well be a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Hindu, or whatever false religion achieves some measure of worldly success or gratification to you. 

    This issue troubles Le Deg, as it should any Catholic whose allegiance is to the TRUTH. 

    You'd be a great Muslim Jihadist, Laddie. They kill "heretics" - sorry, "promoters" - as well, and also don't give much of a damn about TRUTH.

    I like to think Catholics, and this site, is different, for a good reason, the only one worth, indeed, being burned for . . .  THE TRUTH.

    Perhaps you could go look somewhere else for your marshmallow heretics - sorry, "promoters" - to roast. 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #42 on: March 13, 2025, 11:28:32 AM »
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  • I've never heard of these arguments before, thanks for sharing!

    Isn't papal supremacy and primacy argued more from Scripture, Tradition and the Church Fathers?
    This is correct. And Catholic. NO Catholic doctrine depends on the Donation of Constantine forgery.

    And what are the implications that the Greeks held onto its authenticity for a good hundred years after the Latins?

    If you really want to research this, read Fr. Adrian Fortescue.  Le Deg masquerades as a trad with doubts but he periodically shows up here to sew minefields casting aspersions and shows his true colors. In this case, I'm with Ladislaus. 
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #43 on: March 13, 2025, 11:30:35 AM »
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  • The Papal Bull of Excommunication in 1054


    Humbert, cardinal bishop of the holy Roman Church by the grace of God; Peter, Archbishop of Amalfi; and Frederick, Deacon and chancellor, to all the children of the Catholic Church.
    The holy, primary, and Apostolic See of Rome, to which the care of all the churches most especially pertains as if to a head, deigned to make us its ambassadors to this royal city for the sake of the peace and utility of the Church so that, in accordance with what has been written, we might descend and see whether the complaint which rises to its ears without ceasing from this great city, is realized in fact or to know if it is not like this.

    Let the glorious emperors, clergy, senate, and people of this city of Constantinople as well as the entire Catholic Church therefore know that we have sensed here both a great good, whence we greatly rejoice in the Lord, and the greatest evil, whence we lament in misery. For as far as the columns of the imperial power and its honored and wise citizens go, this city is most Christian and orthodox.

    But as far as Michael, who is called patriarch through an abuse of the term, and the backers of his foolishness are concerned, innumerable tares of heresies are daily sown in its midst.

    Because like Simoniacs, they sell the gift of God;
    Like Valesians, they castrate their guests and promote them not only to the clergy but to the episcopacy;
    Like Arians, they rebaptize those already baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity, and especially Latins;
    Like Donatists, they claim that with the exception of the Greek Church, the Church of Christ and baptism has perished from the world;
    Like Nicolaitists, they allow and defend the carnal marriages of the ministers of the sacred altar;
    Like Severians, they say that the law of Moses is accursed;
    Like Pneumatomachoi or Theomachoi, they cut off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son;
    Like the Manichaeans among others, they state that leave is ensouled (animatum);
    Like the Nazarenes, they preserve the carnal cleanness of the Jews to such an extent that they refuse to baptize dying babies before eight days after birth and, in refusing to communicate with pregnant or menstruating women, they forbid them to be baptized if they are pagan;
    And because they grow the hair on their head and beards, they will not receive in communion those who tonsure their hair and shave their beards following the decreed practice of the Roman Church.
    For these errors and many others committed by them, Michael himself, although admonished by the letters of our lord Pope Leo, contemptuously refused to repent.

    Furthermore, when we, the Pope’s ambassadors, wanted to eliminate the causes of such great evils in a reasonable way, he denied us his presence and conversation, forbid churches to celebrate Mass, just as he had earlier closed the churches of the Latins and, calling them “Azymites,” had persecuted the Latins everywhere in word and deed. Indeed, so much [did he persecute them] that among his own children, he had anathematized the Apostolic See and against it he still writes that he is the “Eumenical Patriarch”.

    Therefore, because we did not tolerate this unheard of outrage and injury of the first, holy, and Apostolic See and were concerned that the Catholic faith would be undermined in many ways, by the authority of the holy and individuated Trinity and the Apostolic See, whose embassy we are performing, and of all the orthodox fathers from the Seven Councils and of the entire Catholic Church, we thus subscribe to the following anathema which the most reverend Pope has proclaimed upon Michael and his followers unless they should repent.

    Michael, neophyte patriarch through abuse of office, who took on the monastic habit out of fear of men alone and is now accused by many of the worst of crimes; and with him Leo called bishop of Achrida; Constantine, chaplain of this Michael, who trampled the sacrifice of the Latins with profane feet; and all their followers in the aforementioned errors and acts of presumption: Let them be anathema Maranatha with the Simoniacs, Valesians, Arians, Donatists, Nicolaitists, Severians, Pneumatomachoi, Manichaeans, Nazarenes, and all the heretics — nay, with the devil himself and his angels, unless they should repent. AMEN, AMEN, AMEN.


    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Debate That Will Split The Atom
    « Reply #44 on: March 13, 2025, 11:42:13 AM »
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  • https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/the-strongest-argument-against-the-papacy-(pope-vigilius)-refuted/msg936564/#msg936564

    And in a quick search of LeDeg's posts since last May, once sees plenty of other passive aggressive attacks on the primacy of Peter.

    For those interested in source docuмents and not misrepresentations or outright lies, this site may be helpful.

    https://theseeofpeter.com/
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed