Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: tradlover on July 09, 2013, 10:05:19 PM
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I believe that student loans are keeping men from starting a family and lowering the amount of children they would have because of their money woes.
From a Traditional Catholic standpoint, how would you deal with student loans?
I always wonder why society burdens students with this.
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:pop:Think "population reduction!"
If you wait to marry until both have paid off their loans, the man is apt to be no longer pure and the woman, if, by some miracle has kept her innocence, is past the prime child-bearing years. The number of children is substantially reduced.
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It's a problem of going to college in the first place.
Every middle class and working class parent tells their kids, "college, college, college!"
And the skilled trades go unfilled. Trade school is often an excellent ROI (return on investment). Welders, plumbers, electricians, pipefitters, diesel mechanics, etc make solid livings here, and there arent enough of them.
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Well, for one thing "society" is not burdening students with anything. They burden themselves. By society do you mean your kids should have their hands on my wallet?
It also started with colleges going year after year with higher than average increases. Then the "government" (actually you and I) started subsidizing the out-of-control costs.
Don't sign a contract for something you cannot see any way of repaying. Lock yourself in the basement with every good book you can get your hands on.
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Well, for one thing "society" is not burdening students with anything.
That is a dumb comment. Society demands college education, and punishes those who don't go along with it.
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Apart from the military, the working poor class & up society does except young adults to have parental support. I had trouble renting an apartment being under 21 without a co-signer, even with great credit and a job.
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It's a problem of going to college in the first place.
Every middle class and working class parent tells their kids, "college, college, college!"
And the skilled trades go unfilled. Trade school is often an excellent ROI (return on investment). Welders, plumbers, electricians, pipefitters, diesel mechanics, etc make solid livings here, and there arent enough of them.
Most trade schools are part of colleges now and the price is beyond what an unskilled person could pay for after living expenses.
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It's a problem of going to college in the first place.
Every middle class and working class parent tells their kids, "college, college, college!"
And the skilled trades go unfilled. Trade school is often an excellent ROI (return on investment). Welders, plumbers, electricians, pipefitters, diesel mechanics, etc make solid livings here, and there arent enough of them.
Most trade schools are part of colleges now
Nope
and the price is beyond what an unskilled person could pay for after living expenses.
I'm saying *in lieu of college, so the same sacrifices (i.e. living with parents or working part-time while attending less than fulltime) would apply. However, you'd actually have a chance at a job.
Just like college, some are affordable, some are not. One needs to shop around and choose college (and major) with debt and cost in mind.
Trade school is/would be no different.
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Well, for one thing "society" is not burdening students with anything.
That is a dumb comment. Society demands college education, and punishes those who don't go along with it.
Yes, we are all aware that we must go along with what society demands. What other golden calves do you bow to? We certainly don't want to get "punished" for not going along.
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Apart from the military, the working poor class & up society does except young adults to have parental support. I had trouble renting an apartment being under 21 without a co-signer, even with great credit and a job.
I gather you meant "expect", but that's one of the problems with student loans. They take the signature of 18 year-olds with no track record, no job, and no evidence of character, but don't require mom and dad to co-sign.
Then when the whole scheme breaks down, which is about to happen, the solid citizen pays for the failure. Ouch.
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Yes, we are all aware that we must go along with what society demands.
Is that what I said? You're very dull-witted.
What other golden calves do you bow to? We certainly don't want to get "punished" for not going along.
So people aren't punished for not having college degrees?
They do not lose many opportunities for employment?
Is that what you're pretending?
I'm the last one who wants people to go to college.
Don't pretend society doesn't burden those who don't jump through the hoop.
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It's really tiresome when libertards and associated types pretend that borrowing money is essentially optional.
If such loans were not offered and not taken out the economy would grind to a halt.
Usurious lending is a sin, much more than borrowing.
Many Catholics seem to care more about the rights of usurious creditors than the injustice of system.
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If you are choking on student loan debt, or any kind of debt, it's your own fault. Society didn't force you to go to college and take useless courses and earn a useless degree and earn little or no money. Too many people have exaggerated perceptions of self worth: they see themselves as Harvard Dons, while they struggle at the local junior college.
If you go to college on loans, you had better make sure you major in something marketable: business, law, or medicine. Don't borrow 100k to get a degree in Art History or Sociology. It's just part of being a responsible person. Both my wife and myself took out loans to go to college and we both had no problem paying off our loans.
Say you poor as a church mouse and borrow 100k. After graduation you earn 50k. You can live very comfortably on 40k and pay 10k a year to pay off your loans. Now if you are a little more disciplined, you can pay it off faster. If you have half a brain, you'll go into a lucrative field and pay off your debt even faster.
Stop blaming other people for your own bad choices.
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It's really tiresome when libertards and associated types pretend that borrowing money is essentially optional.
If such loans were not offered and not taken out the economy would grind to a halt.
Usurious lending is a sin, much more than borrowing.
Many Catholics seem to care more about the rights of usurious creditors than the injustice of system.
Indeed, he sounds like one of those neocaths that fancies himself a 'conservative' which is essentially a shill for globalism, destruction of skilled labor, unfettered immigration and all that "pull yourselves up by your bootstraps" rhetoric.
Probably a zionist too.
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Cato,
It is a good point, but your point is different than Lighthouse's.
I too kept debt to a minimum.
I actually didnt take the full amount of loan I was authorized to take (most students take the whole loan and arent aware they can take *less* than what is offered). I averaged 35 hours a week while going to school fulltime. I graduated ontime and took classes in the summer.
My peers partied, took summers off, took ski trips, bought snowboards and recreational equipment, went to Hawaii and trips to springbreak destinations where theyd have sex with as many drunken whores as they could, and they all graduated with triple the debt I had.
I paid mine off in 10 years after graduating and it wasnt difficult at all. It could have been faster but I felt I was doing just fine with reducing my debt without taking it to extremes and eating catfood.
100K sounds *incredible* to me. In fact, 50K would have been a lot to me back then.
When I hear people taking such large debts for schools I never heard of it baffles me. When I graduated i worked with a guy who paid 900/mo for his student loans and his wife's were worse. They went to some private college in the midwest I had never heard of.
Baffling. Why so much debt and when youre interviewing for a job or someone is reading your resume and they think "where's that?" That's gotta hurt.
And yes, pick a marketable major (unless youre independently wealthy).
I was wise enough to make such choices, and I was 18. So age and naivete is no excuse. And my parents were not college educated so I had to figure that out on my own. But debt seemed like a bad idea. Im lucky I didnt saddle myself even to this day from decisions I made 20 years ago.
Your advice is sound Cato, but it is another thing entirely to say "Dont go to college" or "too bad". Youre saying be responsible, I'm saying trade school, Lighthouse is saying "take it or leave it" and as Telesphorus points out, no post high school education isnt exactly an option.
Im not a tradesman but most of my family are in various trades, and theyre often in better financial shape than the college educated ones (like an uncle I have who has a ton of debt negating his high income), but they (my family) tell me they went through trade unions through apprenticeships which do not 'cost'. They seem like theyd be hard to get into, or youd have to know someone, but they all assure me it was about persistence and that there are far more guys who will squander the apprenticeship than finish it like they did so keep applying and be persistent.
One is a welder, one millwright, one a crane operator/welder, my dad a diesel and turbine engineer, a carpenter, 2 electricians, a plumber and one is a general contractor. My grandfather was a stone mason, my maternal grandfather was a mechanic (who later opened a parts store). So I have a lot of data on this.
They all say they got in without knowing anyone, just by being relentless, which I inhereited because I got into my field with relentlessness.
My wife says I'm kinda smart but ten times more relentless than smart. I've had an employer tell me about 15 years ago, after I had been working for him for nearly two years, that he primarily hired me so I would leave him alone.
My dad and uncles say they did the same thing getting apprenticeships.
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Indeed, he sounds like one of those neocaths that fancies himself a 'conservative' which is essentially a shill for globalism, destruction of skilled labor, unfettered immigration and all that "pull yourselves up by your bootstraps" rhetoric.
Probably a zionist too.
I sense that you have a little tongue-in-cheek here, Juvenalis.
If the mentioned "he" is me, then please tell him that I'm, indeed, a libtard, a zionist, and, heaven forbid, a black man, also. Telephorous does not so much argue as name call: dumb, dim-witted, libtard, zionist, black bastard. The fact that none of these sketchy and proof-less allegations are true, should not deter him, as it obviously hasn't.
Telephorous:
...pretend that borrowing money is essentially optional.
Requiring money is not optional, but whether to borrow or earn it is optional. So is what to borrow it for.
If such loans were not offered and not taken out the economy would grind to a halt.
Well it would certainly be injurious to the present system, but the grinding halt is coming either way. Now we just keep feeding more money into the pot, so the grinding will be exceeding large, and the halt will be bone-shattering.
Many Catholics seem to care more about the rights of usurious creditors than the injustice of system.
You are the one saying we should go along with the system to make "society" happy. I'm certainly not for any of the things Juvenalis mentions. Usurious overlords, I would think, would end up in the bottom depths of Hell.
You don't seem to have a real clue as to who I am, or what I am advocating. You must strive to be not so confused.
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Juvenalis:
Your advice is sound Cato, but it is another thing entirely to say "Dont go to college" or "too bad". Youre saying be responsible, I'm saying trade school, Lighthouse is saying "take it or leave it" and as Telesphorus points out, no post high school education isnt exactly an option.
Alternatives that can't be done are the only ones that are "not an option". Alternatives that can be done but you don't want to do when all you need is to you hold your nose and plead your need it to survive in the present situation
are a moral choice.
It's hard to get ahead today without sleeping with the boss. Does that make such behavior the lone option?
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Most people who boast about being debt free have help from relatives or inlaws.
I know many people around here who have had their homes purchased for them with help from the young wife's family.
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How many young people are in a position to make enough to make ends meet, pay for college tuition, have adequate time to study, without having to borrow money?
It's almost as bad as complaining about young people borrowing to buy a house.
We have a lot of Clarence Potter style thinking among trads.
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This is not binary, either borrow into indigence or dont go to college.
One can borrow prudently (live lean, work more, minimize borrowing, choose public/state colleges and/or junior colleges) and educate oneself prudently (major choice, career choice, trade schools)
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A lot of folks borrow for college before they are responsible and knowledgeable enough to realize what they are getting into.
But then they have the usurious payback to handle later, that quite disillusions them as to the reality of it all.
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One can borrow prudently (live lean, work more, minimize borrowing, choose public/state colleges and/or junior colleges)
Sure, I wasn't criticizing your post Iuvenalis.
Borrowing money is optional for those who have the option of receiving adequate amounts of it from others.
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I am among the most debt free people around, I have no credit card, I didn't borrow any money to go to school (2.5 years tech college) I like to work with cash only, I don't even really like my debit card...
I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for people foolish enough to rack up $100k debt on basket weaving or 'womyns studies' degrees, but I don't think it is right to ignore the massive pressure that young people just coming out of highschool get from society, parents and peers to have to go to college. When your 18 years old and coming out of a public school or a typical NO catholic school for that matter, how much reasoning skills are you going to have? From my experience, not a heck of a lot... 90% of kids are just going to go with the flow, do what everybody is telling them to do.
Another factor to consider is the massive inflation (and student debt bubble) in college tuition that is happening right now, I think most of us if we graduated even 10 years ago, don't appreciate just how expensive even a basic education is getting (even if you are trying to do it right).
Here is a decent article that highlights some of the problems:
http://www.zerohedge.com/node/469376
Like I said above I don't like debt or even credit cards, but the reality is that it is getting harder and harder every year to live like this. Want or need to travel? Try booking a flight, renting a car or even booking a hotel room with out a credit card. Not going to happen. Want to live in your own home? Try saving up money to buy one outright. There are very few areas that have cheap housing anymore (say under $80k) and those areas that do usually have very few decent paying jobs, that is why the housing is cheap.
If credit was hard to get (like 30-40 years ago), do you think people would be trying to sell a house for $300K+ for cash? Or worse yet, if you couldn't get easy credit on a depreciating asset like a car, do you think Ford/GM etc would be selling Super Lariat Denali Escalades for $40k+ ? No they would have to make cars that people could afford to buy (with cash or nearly) like in the old days. It is even crazier now, the big box furniture stores even allow you to take out loans to buy their garbage made in China furniture now. Want a big 72" TV to get your JєωProp on? Here is an easy payment plan just for you!!
Thank goodness, this sick usurious system won't last forever. It is plainly obvious to anyone with eyes to see and willing to do a little bit of research (and turn off the TV). I honestly wouldn't be surprised if what sets this whole worldwide stinking heap off is not the Middle East but a Pope that takes the first baby steps to restoring Holy Church to her Tradition. Then it's On, like Donkey Kong! Remember this is a spiritual war we are in, for souls. That I believe is the key, what is keeping this whole mess propped up, is the fact that the only Ark of Salvation, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is 'on the ropes'. But we know who wins in the end, we have to promise of our Blessed Lord, " the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".
Hang on to your hats folks! Pray the Rosary every day!
Luke
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A lot of folks borrow for college before they are responsible and knowledgeable enough to realize what they are getting into.
But then they have the usurious payback to handle later, that quite disillusions them as to the reality of it all.
My first student loan was administered to me when I was barely 18, and I had never had a debt or a credit card before.
Yet Iknew the basics of what I was getting into.
Age is not an excuse, I was somewhat naive for my age at the time.
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Sure, I wasn't criticizing your post Iuvenalis.
Borrowing money is optional for those who have the option of receiving adequate amounts of it from others.
I didnt take anything youve posted as critique.
I was addressing the two extremes of the discussion generally, not you specifically.
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A lot of folks borrow for college before they are responsible and knowledgeable enough to realize what they are getting into.
But then they have the usurious payback to handle later, that quite disillusions them as to the reality of it all.
My first student loan was administered to me when I was barely 18, and I had never had a debt or a credit card before.
Yet Iknew the basics of what I was getting into.
Age is not an excuse, I was somewhat naive for my age at the time.
If you knew the basics you knew the basics, not all teens do.
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It's a problem of going to college in the first place.
Every middle class and working class parent tells their kids, "college, college, college!"
And the skilled trades go unfilled. Trade school is often an excellent ROI (return on investment). Welders, plumbers, electricians, pipefitters, diesel mechanics, etc make solid livings here, and there arent enough of them.
Most trade schools are part of colleges now
Nope
and the price is beyond what an unskilled person could pay for after living expenses.
I'm saying *in lieu of college, so the same sacrifices (i.e. living with parents or working part-time while attending less than fulltime) would apply. However, you'd actually have a chance at a job.
Just like college, some are affordable, some are not. One needs to shop around and choose college (and major) with debt and cost in mind.
Trade school is/would be no different.
Yes, most are part of colleges. Some of the private ones are not and their tuition is ridiculous and higher than the state colleges.
Sacrifices that involve other people supporting you - like living with parents? That is having parental support, other people's money, whatever you want to call it.
How do you survive paying for your basic living expenses while working an unskilled job part-time?
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How do I survive and pay for living expenses??
I did.
I worked 35-40 hours a week and went to school.
Not a ton of sleep.
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Student loans! Tell me about it. I must say though that I remember reading the first book by Fr. Saint-Jure in Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence and that he explains that however unjust a loan maybe, God wills it for our greater good.