Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Creation  (Read 572 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline IMPERATOREBT

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 62
  • Reputation: +27/-0
  • Gender: Male
Creation
« on: October 26, 2011, 01:36:09 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Are we supposed to believe that Mankind is (approx) 6000 years old (by counting back the generations from Jesus to Adam as it is written)?

    I am always told that I read Genesis 'fundamentally' because I personally believe (and I may be wrong, please correct me) that the years/generations of mankind are as they say in the Bible (even though the Earth itself may be billions of years old) e.g. JAPHETH is LITERALLY father of the Europeans etc..

    Was the flood WORLDWIDE!? Did it kill everyone or just flood a gigantic part of Asia Minor/the Levant?


    I'm not questioning the dogmatic parts ie. the fall and Adam and Eve, but things like God making the world in literally 7 days, because people say "its up to you, but its unscientific to think that"[/i]


    Sources would be great guys THANK YOU!


    Offline LordPhan

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1171
    • Reputation: +826/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Creation
    « Reply #1 on: October 26, 2011, 01:38:29 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • Offline Catholic Samurai

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2821
    • Reputation: +744/-14
    • Gender: Male
    Creation
    « Reply #2 on: October 27, 2011, 09:51:36 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • 1. The Bible clearly states EVERYONE outside the Ark died in the flood.

    2. It also says God created the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th. He could have created it instantly (He's God after all), not being bound by time, but He didn't. I see no reason to believe otherwise.
    "Louvada Siesa O' Sanctisimo Sacramento!"~warcry of the Amakusa/Shimabara rebels

    "We must risk something for God!"~Hernan Cortes


    TEJANO AND PROUD!

    Offline IMPERATOREBT

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 62
    • Reputation: +27/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Creation
    « Reply #3 on: October 27, 2011, 10:12:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Catholic Samurai

    1. The Bible clearly states EVERYONE outside the Ark died in the flood.

    2. It also says God created the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th. He could have created it instantly (He's God after all), not being bound by time, but He didn't. I see no reason to believe otherwise.


    I completely agree with you. But then I have a DOCTOR of Theology at uni who says... "No Daniel, you cannot read it fundamentally, the Creation NARRATIVE is written as that, a Narrative, so you cannot take it word for word! When in the Bible it read 7 days it means Ages, or something.. and the flood wasn't worldwide because theres no evidence of it (or something like that)"

    .. and then I say..  :heretic:


    Offline Stephen Francis

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 682
    • Reputation: +861/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Creation
    « Reply #4 on: October 27, 2011, 10:28:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Our Lord Jesus Christ said to St. Peter, "...whatsoever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven."

    With that understanding, we must accept the record of Scripture AND the interpretation of same by Holy Church as infallible. There are things which the sciences continue to discover, and some of them are harmonious with Scripture, and some are at odds with Scripture. We must obey the Voice of God on Earth, which is the Church.

    We must also remember that there were 'major scientific discoveries' centuries ago that are now considered ludicrous because new information has been gained. I am not suggesting that we disregard science, but rather that we remember that science has at its core the desire and the goal of change, forward motion and progress, which necessarily means that scientists will one day repudiate what they previously believed.

    The Church, on the other hand, moves forward IN time but not WITH the times; Her dogmas are infallible and there is no new revelation that can or will ever supersede what She already teaches us.

    Thus, we are always to rest on the Authority which has been placed over us, namely, Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy Church.

    I, personally, don't see any need to believe that man was or was not created X number of years ago. What the Bible says is that God Almighty created the world in six days. Whatever time period the word 'day' represents is immaterial to me. There are no definitions of the creation account that are de fide, so I don't concern myself with them.

    Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon.

    Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
    This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of godliness are overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and the chief seat [the Papacy] is now openly proposed as a rewar


    Offline LordPhan

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1171
    • Reputation: +826/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Creation
    « Reply #5 on: October 27, 2011, 10:45:28 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • From the First Vatican Council:

    Quote
    The perpetual agreement of the catholic church has maintained and maintains this too: that
    there is a twofold order of knowledge, distinct
    not only as regards its source,
    but also as regards its object.
    With regard to the source,
    we know at the one level by natural reason,
    at the other level by divine faith.
    With regard to the object,
    besides those things to which natural reason can attain,
    there are proposed for our belief mysteries hidden in God
    which, unless they are divinely revealed, are incapable of being known.
    Wherefore, when the Apostle, who witnesses that God was known to the gentiles from created things [29] , comes to treat of the grace and truth which came by Jesus Christ [30] , he declares: We impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification. None of the rulers of this age understood this. God has revealed it to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God [31] . And the Only-begotten himself, in his confession to the Father, acknowledges that the Father has hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to the little ones [32] .
    Now reason,
    does indeed
    when it seeks persistently, piously and soberly,
    achieve
    by God's gift
    some understanding,
    and that most profitable,
    of the mysteries,
    whether by analogy from what it knows naturally,
    or from the connexion of these mysteries
    with one another and
    with the final end of humanity;
    but reason
    is never rendered capable of penetrating these mysteries
    in the way in which it penetrates those truths which form its proper object.
    For
    the divine mysteries,
    by their very nature,
    so far surpass the created understanding
    that, even when a revelation has been given and accepted by faith,
    they remain covered by the veil of that same faith and wrapped, as it were, in a certain obscurity,
    as long as in this mortal life we are away from the Lord,
    for we walk by faith, and not by sight [33] .
    Even though faith is above reason, there can never be any real disagreement between faith and reason, since
    it is the same God
    who reveals the mysteries and infuses faith, and
    who has endowed the human mind with the light of reason.
    God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever be in opposition to truth.
    The appearance of this kind of specious contradiction is chiefly due to the fact that either
    the dogmas of faith are not understood and explained in accordance with the mind of the church, or
    unsound views are mistaken for the conclusions of reason.
    Therefore we define that every assertion contrary to the truth of enlightened faith is totally false [34] .
    Furthermore the church which,
    together with its apostolic office of teaching,
    has received the charge of preserving the deposit of faith,
    has
    by divine appointment
    the right
    and duty
    of condemning
    what wrongly passes for knowledge,
    lest anyone be led astray by philosophy and empty deceit [35] .
    Hence all faithful Christians
    are forbidden to defend as the legitimate conclusions of science those opinions which are known to be contrary to the doctrine of faith,
    particularly if they have been condemned by the church; and furthermore they
    are absolutely bound to hold them to be errors which wear the deceptive appearance of truth.
    Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for
    on the one hand right reason
    established the foundations of the faith
    and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things;
    on the other hand, faith
    delivers reason from errors and
    protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds.
    Hence, so far is the church from hindering the development of human arts and studies, that in fact she assists and promotes them in many ways. For
    she is neither ignorant nor contemptuous of the advantages which derive from this source for human life, rather
    she acknowledges that those things flow from God, the lord of sciences, and, if they are properly used, lead to God by the help of his grace.
    Nor does the church forbid these studies to employ, each within its own area, its own proper principles and method:
    but while she admits this just freedom,
    she takes particular care that they do not
    become infected with errors by conflicting with divine teaching, or,
    by going beyond their proper limits, intrude upon what belongs to faith and
    engender confusion.
    For the doctrine of the faith which God has revealed is put forward
    not as some philosophical discovery capable of being perfected by human intelligence,
    but as a divine deposit committed to the spouse of Christ to be faithfully protected and infallibly promulgated.
    Hence, too,that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding.
    May understanding, knowledge and wisdom increase as ages and centuries roll along, and greatly and vigorously flourish, in each and all, in the individual and the whole church: but this only in its own proper kind, that is to say, in the same doctrine, the same sense, and the same understanding [36]


    Quote
    The same holy mother church holds and teaches that God, the source and end of all things,
    can be known
    with certainty from the consideration of created things,
    by the natural power of human reason : ever since the creation of the world, his invisible nature has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. [13]
    It was, however, pleasing to his wisdom and goodness to reveal
    himself and
    the eternal laws of his will
    to the human race by another, and that a supernatural, way.
    This is how the Apostle puts it : In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son [14] .
    It is indeed thanks to this divine revelation, that those matters concerning God
    which are not of themselves beyond the scope of human reason,
    can, even in the present state of the human race, be known
    by everyone
    without difficulty,
    with firm certitude and
    with no intermingling of error.
    It is not because of this that one must hold revelation to be absolutely necessary; the reason is that God directed human beings to a supernatural end,
    that is a sharing in the good things of God that utterly surpasses the understanding of the human mind; indeed eye has not seen, neither has ear heard, nor has it come into our hearts to conceive what things God has prepared for those who love him [15] .
    Now this supernatural revelation, according to the belief of the universal church, as declared by the sacred council of Trent, is contained in
    written books and
    unwritten traditions,
    which were
    received by the apostles from the lips of Christ himself,
    or came to the apostles by the dictation of the holy Spirit,
    and were passed on as it were from hand to hand until they reached us [16].
    The complete books of the old and the new Testament with all their parts, as they are listed in the decree of the said council and as they are found in the old Latin Vulgate edition, are to be received as sacred and canonical.
    These books the church holds to be sacred and canonical
    not because she subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by unaided human skill,
    nor simply because they contain revelation without error,
    but because,
    being written under the inspiration of the holy Spirit,
    they have God as their author,
    and were as such committed to the church.
    Now since the decree on the interpretation of holy scripture, profitably made by the council of Trent, with the intention of constraining rash speculation, has been wrongly interpreted by some, we renew that decree and declare its meaning to be as follows: that
    in matters of faith and morals,
    belonging as they do to the establishing of christian doctrine,
    that meaning of holy scripture must be held to be the true one,
    which holy mother church held and holds,
    since it is her right to judge of the true meaning and interpretation of holy scripture.
    In consequence, it is not permissible for anyone to interpret holy scripture in a sense contrary to this, or indeed against the unanimous consent of the fathers.


    Quote
    Since human beings are totally dependent on God as their creator and lord, and created reason is completely subject to uncreated truth, we are obliged to yield to God the revealer full submission of intellect and will by faith.
    This faith, which is the beginning of human salvation, the catholic church professes to be
    a supernatural virtue,
    by means of which,
    with the grace of God inspiring and assisting us,
    we believe to be true what He has revealed,
    not because we perceive its intrinsic truth by the natural light of reason,
    but because of the authority of God himself, who makes the revelation and can neither deceive nor be deceived.
    Faith, declares the Apostle, is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen [17].
    Nevertheless, in order that the submission of our faith should be in accordance with reason, it was God's will that there should be linked to the internal assistance of the holy Spirit external indications of his revelation, that is to say divine acts, and
    first and foremost miracles and prophecies,
    which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are
    the most certain signs of revelation and are
    suited to the understanding of all.
    Hence
    Moses
    and the prophets,
    and especially Christ our lord himself,
    worked many absolutely clear miracles and delivered prophecies;
    while of the apostles we read:
    And they went forth and preached every, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it [18] . Again it is written:
    We have the prophetic word made more sure; you will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place [19] .
    Now,
    although the assent of faith is by no means a blind movement of the mind,
    yet no one can accept the gospel preaching
    in the way that is necessary for achieving salvation
    without the inspiration and illumination of the holy Spirit,
    who gives to all facility in accepting and believing the truth [20] .
    And so faith in itself,
    even though it may not work through charity,
    is a gift of God,
    and its operation is a work belonging to the order of salvation,
    in that a person yields true obedience to God himself when he accepts and collaborates with his grace which he could have rejected.
    Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed
    which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition,
    and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed,
    whether by her solemn judgment
    or in her ordinary and universal magisterium.
    Since, then, without faith it is impossible to please God [21] and reach the fellowship of his sons and daughters, it follows that
    no one can ever achieve justification without it,
    neither can anyone attain eternal life unless he or she perseveres in it to the end.
    So that we could fulfil our duty of embracing the true faith and of persevering unwaveringly in it, God, through his only begotten Son,
    founded the church,
    and he endowed his institution with clear notes to the end that she might be recognised by all as the guardian and teacher of the revealed word.
    To the catholic church alone belong all those things, so many and so marvellous, which have been divinely ordained to make for the manifest credibility of the christian faith.
    What is more,
    the church herself
    by reason of
    her astonishing propagation,
    her outstanding holiness and
    her inexhaustible fertility in every kind of goodness, by
    her catholic unity and
    her unconquerable stability,
    is a kind of great and perpetual motive of credibility and an incontrovertible evidence of her own divine mission.
    So it comes about that,
    like a standard lifted up for the nations [22] ,
    she both invites to herself those who have not yet believed,
    and likewise assures her sons and daughters that the faith they profess rests on the firmest of foundations.
    To this witness is added the effective help of power from on high. For,

    the kind Lord stirs up those who go astray and helps them by his grace
    so that they may come to the knowledge of the truth [23] ;
    and also confirms by his grace those whom he has translated into his admirable light [24],
    so that they may persevere in this light,
    not abandoning them unless he is first abandoned.
    Consequently,
    the situation of those, who
    by the heavenly gift of faith
    have embraced the catholic truth,
    is by no means the same as that of those who,
    led by human opinions,
    follow a false religion;
    for those who have accepted the faith under the guidance of the church can never have any just cause for changing this faith or for calling it into question.
    This being so, giving thanks to God the Father who has made us worthy to share with the saints in light [25] let us not neglect so great a salvation [26] , but looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith [27] , let us hold the unshakeable confession of our hope [28].


    Quote
    5. If anyone
    does not confess that the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, were produced, according to their whole substance, out of nothing by God; or
    holds that God did not create by his will free from all necessity, but as necessarily as he necessarily loves himself; or
    denies that the world was created for the glory of God:
    let him be anathema.


    Quote
    If anyone
    does not receive as sacred and canonical the complete books of sacred scripture with all their parts, as the holy council of Trent listed them, or
    denies that they were divinely inspired :
    let him be anathema.


    Quote
    If anyone says that
    all miracles are impossible, and that therefore
    all reports of them, even those contained in sacred scripture, are to be set aside as fables or myths; or that
    miracles can never be known with certainty,
    nor can the divine origin of the christian religion be proved from them:
    let him be anathema.


    Quote
    If anyone says that
    in divine revelation there are contained no true mysteries properly so-called, but that
    all the dogmas of the faith can be understood and demonstrated by properly trained reason from natural principles:
    let him be anathema.


    Quote
    If anyone says that
    human studies are to be treated with such a degree of liberty that their assertions may be maintained as true even when they are opposed to divine revelation, and that
    they may not be forbidden by the church:
    let him be anathema.


    Quote
    3. If anyone says that
    it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the church which is different from that which the church has understood and understands:
    let him be anathema.


    Quote
    And so in the performance of our supreme pastoral office, we beseech for the love of Jesus Christ and we command, by the authority of him who is also our God and saviour, all faithful Christians, especially those in authority or who have the duty of teaching, that they contribute their zeal and labour to the warding off and elimination of these errors from the church and to the spreading of the light of the pure faith.

    But since it is not enough to avoid the contamination of heresy unless those errors are carefully shunned which approach it in greater or less degree, we warn all of their duty to observe the constitutions and decrees in which such wrong opinions, though not expressly mentioned in this docuмent, have been banned and forbidden by this holy see.