Actually it's not unjustified nor petty.

Tele's side of the whole story is that the girl was mad for him but the father interfered. Thus, Tele has nursed a hatred for most SSPX/trad fathers, which is clearly seen in any of his discussions about said fathers, particularly with respect to their authority and relationships with their daughters. He takes this subject very personally which is why he is incapable of discussing it objectively.

For those who don't know this, it is important they know it so that they can realize it is a very biased and incomplete view and not at all indicative of the fullness of the Church's thought. Just the one little sliver of Church teaching, the one that looks good for him is all he will pound out over and over again. No other sides of Church teaching, such as the fathers' duty to guide and seek the best match (physical, mental and spiritual) for their daughters in marriage, can be objectively and rationally discussed, so his posts are riddled with a mix of truth and error. This is dangerous. More so than posts that are obviously false.  

It isn't about whether every man who is poor, unemployed or older is no good for marriage, but more about the bias of this particular man.

If the parents were for their daughters marrying men of good character young, they would be inviting men with good intentions over for dinner after Mass and encouraging their daughters to have chaperoned social activities with them. It's not just one father, it's a culture, and I've seen it in Protestant circles too. That father is a reflection of many. I guarantee when their daughters are older or if he was perceived to be from the right clique he would be treated differently.  
I've seen the opposite in plain circles and in a trad chapel where marriage was encouraged and there social times were encouraged for everyone.

So are people here saying that it is common among TradCats in the xSPX chapels to make the decision whom their daughters marry?  Don't they realize that marriages under these kind of circuмstances can be annulled?  In the 50's it was easier for a man to provide for his family without a post-college grad education.  Unfortunately, the times have changed.  Ideally, a woman marries when she's still young enough to have children and a man wouldn't have to be fifteen to twenty years older than her to provide for his  family--which is what he needs to do.  Suitors should be respectful, but fathers should care about their daughter's hearts and needs as well, and trust them a little more.      

My curiosity about courtship vs. dating has to do with a family member who is interested in a girl who is only allowed to court and only wears dresses and  skirts.  This young man, who is 20, is a fundamentalist because his mother, my sister, left the Church when he was born.  The last I heard, my sister did not know what religion she was. She would be furious if she were to find out that her son was interested in a Catholic--Traditional, no less.  If by some odd coincidence, she is Catholic, I need to pray very hard about it.  

So are people here saying that it is common among TradCats in the xSPX chapels to make the decision whom their daughters marry?  Don't they realize that marriages under these kind of circuмstances can be annulled?  In the 50's it was easier for a man to provide for his family without a post-college grad education.  Unfortunately, the times have changed.  Ideally, a woman marries when she's still young enough to have children and a man wouldn't have to be fifteen to twenty years older than her to provide for his  family--which is what he needs to do.  Suitors should be respectful, but fathers should care about their daughter's hearts and needs as well, and trust them a little more.      

The 1950s and 1960s were an exceptional time for Western Countries, especially the United States.  The economy was massively boosted by cheap oil virtually just sucked out of the ground, technology, population growth, rebuilding after World War II.

You have a very Americentric view of the world.  What about Catholic men in Brazil, Russia, Poland, Slovakia and China?  They are better off economically and politically now than they were in the 1950s.

How well did it work out for French Catholic men between 1914 and 1918.  Men who were fathers or looking to get married?

Guess what, the world does not stand still.  It never did.  Smart people don't swim against the tide but work with the prevailing winds to get where they wish to go.

If you cannot make it in what is still the wealthiest economy in the world then you are rather pathetic.

Men who couldn't make some kind of financial stability for themselves prior to 2008 had to be either unmotivated to work hard or they have a sense of entitlement and don't want to start at the bottom and work their way up.  

Again, I emphasize that this would be prior to the 2008 recession/depression we are now in.  Even hard workers are broke and jobless.

Quote from: Zeitun

Men who couldn't make some kind of financial stability for themselves prior to 2008 had to be either unmotivated to work hard or they have a sense of entitlement and don't want to start at the bottom and work their way up.  

Again, I emphasize that this would be prior to the 2008 recession/depression we are now in.  Even hard workers are broke and jobless.

As bad as the recession/depression is in the US of A and Europe it is still better than the economic peaks most countries of the world have experienced for the last 100 years.  Personally I am amazed the FED and various governments have limited the damaging effects as much as they have.  So far the cassandras have been wrong or way off on their doomsday timing.  The dollar has not collapsed and Gold and Silver have not gone through the roof.  House prices have not collapse in the UK and interest rates are insanely low.

Let's not pretend it is Mad Max out there, or that the late 1980s early 1990s when I was starting out was a cake walk in the UK economy.  There is always a boom/bust cycle.

If you cannot find gainful employment as a white native of your country, even today, then what are you going to do if the economy REALLY does collapse and they cancel all government services, welfare, food stamps as happened in Egypt and other collapsed economies like Argentina, Zimbabwe, Weimar Germany?

You'll then be competing for work with people who up until then have been long term employed and have skills, knowledge, experience and CONTACTS that you don't.  They will blow you out of the water at the job interview stage.  Their CV will look so much more impressive than yours.

In a economic slump where the GDP shrank 30% (i.e. bread queues and soup kitchens on ever street) why would the opportunities for the limited work be won by people who could not (would not) find a job in better times?  They won't.  There is work out there and plenty of opportunity if you are prepared to self-learn, adapt, try, fail, pick yourself up and try again.

James03 at SD works in North Dakota and says they are hiring anyone with a pulse and half a brain up there for double or triple min wage.  Go North!

Heck if you think it is really THAT bad, then start a business improving resumes or a blog advising people how to find work.

For those who genuinely want to know, THIS is why I want "someone like" ggreg as a member of CathInfo.

My favorite part I put in bold.

I disagree with him about many things -- he isn't what I would consider the perfect balance between ideals and pragmatism (he skews too far toward the "worldly" in my opinion) -- but he has a lot of good advice to offer the gaggle of idealistic, unemployed, or underemployed Trads out there.  For many of these impoverished Trads, it's not their fault. Their baby boomer parents often haven't trained them very well for life in the 2010's. They really don't know what to do.

I completely agree with him on stuff like this. If there were a real collapse, would the currently unemployed get any of the few jobs that were left? Of course not. It's always survival of the fittest.

Catholics -- and everyone else -- need to learn how to set goals and overcome obstacles. Some people are better at this than others. I also agree that each decade is different, and presents its own challenges. The way to "make it" in 2013 is different than in the 1980's.

There are things that are always a good idea (network with others, give away a small part of your work to spread the word, work hard, etc.) and there are other things you can do in each particular situation.

I suppose it's difficult for some people to put their Faith first, and despise the evils in "the world" in general, while still pursuing excellence in their worldly careers, pursuits, etc.

But how can you raise saints (who are excellent in their service of God) if they never see excellence anywhere in their home life? If homeschooling is done in a slipshod and disorganized manner, and neither parent strives for excellence even in worldly matters?

How can a man fight the world, the flesh, the devil and save his soul -- which basically takes a certain amount of determination, excellence and heroism -- if he lacks the problem solving and brainstorming ability to merely eke out a living for himself in this world?

Notice I say a living, not raking in 6 figures. I think a man can easily support a family on $40K or $50K a year; possibly less depending on various factors (the area you live, your particular circuмstances, and your natural abilities). It just takes frugality and a certain detachment from the world.

It's a very delicate topic. You have "good men" who are unemployed during hard times, even though they are hard working. My own father was in that situation during the early 80's.

So I wouldn't call him a lazy bum.

NEVERTHELESS -- objectively speaking, he was lacking that which he needed. You can be a good guy and still be ignorant of what you need to do to make a living in the world. Your parents could have been deficient in their training (certainly true in my dad's case).

It's also true that when there's 25% unemployment, the other 75% are employed!  Who are those people? Those who slept with the boss? Maybe in a few cases, but usually not. The work world is simply more competitive during hard times, and those best equipped (skills, experience, drive) are GENERALLY SPEAKING going to succeed.

A "good hard working man" who can't make a living could be the result of parents who -- objectively speaking -- did a lousy job preparing their children to live on their own. They might have thrown their children into the world "sink or swim" style, without proper training and guidance how to problem solve, seek opportunities, deal with people, etc.  Or they did their best -- what they thought was a good job -- instilling good "Baby Boomer" values in them. Too bad the Baby Boomer system is rotten, and certainly doesn't work anymore!

I'll give you a hint: TV and other time wasters are the bane of the successful. Such things waste time, and many successful men go without them for practical reasons, rather than spiritual/moral reasons. Now successful and worldly men might indulge in TV (for example) now that they're successful, but when they were younger and starting out, they would "do without many things, and for a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one." remember St. Paul's words? The pagans did tons of hard work and fasting just so they could win a race.

To get personal, I'm no stranger to time wasters. Even for those without a TV, there are ways to waste time. Amazon.com has movies on demand (free for Prime members), there's Youtube, and plenty of time-wasting websites. I've been caught wasting time at various points in my past.

Usually I do about "average" -- getting lots of things done (paid and unpaid), but wasting a little time here and there.

But for the past 1.5 months, I've been working on programming a video game with gazelle-like intensity. I can't believe how much I've done in the last 1.5 months. I worked on the game for about 3 1/2 months last year, but I can't believe how far I still had to go. I feel like I've improved or written almost the whole game in these past 7 weeks. In another few weeks, I'll have an 100% complete, polished, mostly bug-free game that I can sell for Android as well as desktop PCs.

I feel much better about myself these days, too.

I also advocate being creative about earning an income. I think a few part-time jobs (including working for yourself) is a more stable income than (1) 9-to-5 job working for "the man". I guess it depends on the person, though. Not everyone is cut out for self-employment. In this case like any other, self-knowledge is a good thing.

The days of the 9 to 5, 40 hour work week in a single job for 40 years are long gone for most of us.  Unemployed does not mean lazy anymore.  My parents who are in their mid and late 80s were about the last to not only survive, but thrive on the old model.  Their offspring have more than twice the education and work twice the hours at multiple jobs with minimal or no benefits and no retirement in order to survive.  It leaves little time for the spiritual, social, recreational.  
2013 is indeed, a different world than the 1980s!  In the long run, those who have to go without, improvise and will know about survival when the economy crashes.