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Author Topic: Correcting Fr Paul Robinson's Catholic faith and science  (Read 2011 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Correcting Fr Paul Robinson's Catholic faith and science
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2023, 11:29:54 AM »
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  • In my opinion, the excerpt above from the CE article on Galileo properly explains how the Church’s magisterium is not to be accused of the errors Cassini attributes to it (and consequently, there is no wound to indefectibility, or any need to declare sede vacante from 1616).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Correcting Fr Paul Robinson's Catholic faith and science
    « Reply #16 on: May 05, 2023, 11:35:51 AM »
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  • In my opinion, the excerpt above from the CE article on Galileo properly explains how the Church’s magisterium is not to be accused of the errors Cassini attributes to it (and consequently, there is no wound to indefectibility, or any need to declare sede vacante from 1616).
    Magisterium??? What magisterium?

    The closest thing to infallibility on the matter is the condemnation of Galileo and it isn't even magisterial.


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Correcting Fr Paul Robinson's Catholic faith and science
    « Reply #17 on: May 05, 2023, 11:38:35 AM »
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  • Magisterium??? What magisterium?

    The closest thing to infallibility on the matter is the condemnation of Galileo and it isn't even magisterial.
    Actually forget I said anything. It's pointless.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Correcting Fr Paul Robinson's Catholic faith and science
    « Reply #18 on: May 05, 2023, 12:08:22 PM »
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  • Magisterium??? What magisterium?

    The closest thing to infallibility on the matter is the condemnation of Galileo and it isn't even magisterial.

    Good to have your agreement for once.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Correcting Fr Paul Robinson's Catholic faith and science
    « Reply #19 on: May 05, 2023, 12:25:16 PM »
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  • Magisterium??? What magisterium?

    The closest thing to infallibility on the matter is the condemnation of Galileo and it isn't even magisterial.

    He's conflating about 3 different issues to continue promoting his Old Catholic ecclesiology.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Correcting Fr Paul Robinson's Catholic faith and science
    « Reply #20 on: May 05, 2023, 12:26:00 PM »
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  • He's conflating about 3 different issues to continue promoting his Old Catholic ecclesiology.

    Gratuitous.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Correcting Fr Paul Robinson's Catholic faith and science
    « Reply #21 on: May 05, 2023, 12:29:03 PM »
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  • Gratuitous.

    Reality.  You conflated the question of whether a decree of the Holy Office is Magisterial and irreformable (there's disagrement on that), and then slide that over into the issue of indefectibility (which entails begging the question, even against your opinion regarding the first) and then claiming the SV principles would require SV from 1616.  It's an idiotic conflation of 3 separate issues in an attempt to smear SVs with a false argument ad absurdum that they would hold the See to be vacant since 1616.  Idiotic on all counts.  Not sure if the conflation was the result of your childish petulance regarding or befuddlement of your foggy mind.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Correcting Fr Paul Robinson's Catholic faith and science
    « Reply #22 on: May 05, 2023, 12:52:45 PM »
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  • Reality.  You conflated the question of whether a decree of the Holy Office is Magisterial and irreformable (there's disagrement on that), and then slide that over into the issue of indefectibility (which entails begging the question, even against your opinion regarding the first) and then claiming the SV principles would require SV from 1616.  It's an idiotic conflation of 3 separate issues in an attempt to smear SVs with a false argument ad absurdum that they would hold the See to be vacant since 1616.  Idiotic on all counts.  Not sure if the conflation was the result of your childish petulance regarding or befuddlement of your foggy mind.

    Au contraire: 

    If the Holy Office decree is not magisterial, then the issue of indefectaility does not arise.  

    You should read more, and write less.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Correcting Fr Paul Robinson's Catholic faith and science
    « Reply #23 on: May 05, 2023, 12:56:54 PM »
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  • Au contraire:

    If the Holy Office decree is not magisterial, then the issue of indefectaility does not arise. 

    You should read more, and write less.

    Correct, which is where you should have stopped.  You're the one that started babbling on about indefectibility and a vacant see since 1616.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Correcting Fr Paul Robinson's Catholic faith and science
    « Reply #24 on: May 05, 2023, 01:04:54 PM »
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  • Correct, which is where you should have stopped.  You're the one that started babbling on about indefectibility and a vacant see since 1616.

    Au contraire:

    DR raised the issue of indefectability and the matter of an errant magisterium regarding the 1616 condemnation.

    My post was intended to alleviate that concern (as well as the sede issue, which would arise in the minds of some, were it true).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Correcting Fr Paul Robinson's Catholic faith and science
    « Reply #25 on: May 05, 2023, 01:08:33 PM »
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  • In my opinion, the excerpt above from the CE article on Galileo properly explains how the Church’s magisterium is not to be accused of the errors Cassini attributes to it (and consequently, there is no wound to indefectibility, or any need to declare sede vacante from 1616).

    Sean,

    In other words, the condemnations of Galileo were not universal teachings issued to the Church on the question of whether heliocentrism was heresy, but were limited to the issue at hand - condemning Galileo's writings and proscribing them, and him, from opining as written. The assertions of heliocentrism as heresy were tangential to the precise issue and holding, and not an expression of the ordinary, universal magisterium.

    Therefore, the Church could change its stance on heliocentrism and allowing its written expressions - that would merely be at the level of a practical, disciplinary change under different historical circuмstances.

    Is that a decent summary?

    I don't find that particularly comforting - i.e., that the Holy Office, with the pope's approval, could be so "wrong" about what is heresy and contrary to the teaching of the Fathers. The authority of the Church as teacher on issues of faith is still eroded and damaged.

    It would seem to me that such a situation implicates - again and again we come back to this - the Church's indefectibility, which, as far as accepted wisdom or expression goes, is not limited to the infallible.

    If necessary, I can go get that Canon Smith article about when the Church is indefectible - I believe it would cover things like the Holy Office condemnation of Galileo.

    So we are not talking only about ex cathedra, at least under the accepted or conventional understanding.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Correcting Fr Paul Robinson's Catholic faith and science
    « Reply #26 on: May 05, 2023, 01:14:14 PM »
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  • Sean,

    In other words, the condemnations of Galileo were not universal teachings issued to the Church on the question of whether heliocentrism was heresy, but were limited to the issue at hand - condemning Galileo's writings and proscribing them, and him, from opining as written. The assertions of heliocentrism as heresy were tangential to the precise issue and holding, and not an expression of the ordinary, universal magisterium.

    Therefore, the Church could change its stance on heliocentrism and allowing its written expressions - that would merely be at the level of a practical, disciplinary change under different historical circuмstances.

    Is that a decent summary?

    I don't find that particularly comforting - i.e., that the Holy Office, with the pope's approval, could be so "wrong" about what is heresy and contrary to the teaching of the Fathers. The authority of the Church as teacher on issues of faith is still eroded and damaged.

    It would seem to me that such a situation implicates - again and again we come back to this - the Church's indefectibility, which, as far as accepted wisdom or expression goes, is not limited to the infallible.

    If necessary, I can go get that Canon Smith article about when the Church is indefectible - I believe it would cover things like the Holy Office condemnation of Galileo.

    So we are not talking only about ex cathedra, at least under the accepted or conventional understanding.

    DR


    If you look at the CE article, you see it is making the issue of "infallibility" and "ex cathedra" central regarding the 1616 decree. It avoids, rather conveniently, the issue of indefectibility - which implicates more than the infallible and ex cathedra - in its discussion of the 1616 decree.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Donachie

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    Re: Correcting Fr Paul Robinson's Catholic faith and science
    « Reply #27 on: May 05, 2023, 01:35:07 PM »
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  • It's ironic how "they" like to emphasize collection of data and empiricism to have scientific opinions and budgets, the all important induction, and its authority of arrangement, yet at the same time the senses are deficient since everything changes. So it's impossible to know anything.

    Quid? Quod nihil scitur!

    Yet it's reasonable to conclude that immutable things can be known through illustration of mutable ones, since it's not precisely or exactly only the mutabilities in question that occasion the knowledge, but it is the nature that's involved and the logical relation of facts themselves that are immutable and occasion the knowledge. 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Correcting Fr Paul Robinson's Catholic faith and science
    « Reply #28 on: May 05, 2023, 01:37:28 PM »
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  • DR-

    Yes, your summary is more or less the argument I am making.

    But really, I should not say "I am making," since I am only endorsing the CE article's conclusions.

    With regard to St. Pius X's Catholic Encyclopedia generally, it is important to remember that it was published precisely to rebut the Masonic encyclopedia in areas such as this (i.e., Galileo, Crusades, Inquisition, etc.).

    Consequently, it would be rather ironic that an encyclopedia designed to rebut Protestant and Masonic errors, should itself be in error on one of the most obvious articles in which it would need to rebut Prot/Masonic contentions.

    In any case, it is not clear to me how indefectability can be destroyed on the basis of a Holy Office decree.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Donachie

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    Re: Correcting Fr Paul Robinson's Catholic faith and science
    « Reply #29 on: May 05, 2023, 01:40:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: cassini on April 30, 2023, 09:03:20 AM

    Pope Leo explicitly states that Sacred Scripture speaks in a popular language that describes physical things as they appear to the senses, and so does not describe them with scientific exactitude.