Author Topic: Daily Laugh - Couple with 3 kids struggling on 110K income (Read 1968 times)

ggreg · « **Reply #15 on:** June 05, 2013, 07:08:52 PM »

Our gas and electric bill is $4000 per year alone. Local taxes police and rubbish collection are another $3800. That's $12000 gross income before we've bought anything just to legally live in your own house and not freeze to death. We keep the temperature at around 65F and at night drop it to 60F

Credit Card bills are 4000-4500 per month. We run two cars, a 1999 Previa and a 2006 Toyota Corolla. I do the maintenance myself. I printed off the bank statements today and for my own curiosity went through the expense we could cut if we needed to without much pain.

Wife has a 60 per month gym membership. She goes 9 times per month so that is about 7 dollars per visit. She has an iPhone costing 45 per month on contract, but she uses it heavily and really enjoys using it. 3 kids go to scouts. Fees are 50 bucks per month. Boy is in an after school soccer club which is 5 dollars per wèek.

Just had the kitchen dining room floor resurfaced in Amtico. Needed a new subfloor too. Builder friends of mine did it, cash in hand. 340 sqft. Vinyl was 30 per square meter, with labour whole thing came to 4200 dollars. Should last 20 years mind you. Every year I spend money on a similar project, decking, boiler, windows, fencing, driveway.

We eat great food admittedly. Lots of ham, beef, chicken, decent veg and there is always a fruit bowl and we eat lots of fruit. Typically, I spend about 7 to 10 dollars per kg on decent pork or beef. For steak, we eat once a month, double that.

We also buy fish and its pretty rare here to have a full vegetarian day.

Even meals like baked potatoes (my favourite) and cheese we will use a dollar of butter, 5 dollars of grated mature English cheddar, 1 dollar of baked beans, 3 dollars of tinned tuna and mayo. The larger spuds that roast well probably cost 5 dollars for 8 of them. I water down a litre of decent fruit juice costing about 2 per carton. So even a 'cheap' lunch costs 17 dollars to feed 8 people.

As a family we eat three Corn fed chickens in one sitting, bought in bulk frozen they cost 5 buckets each, ( at the supermarket they are 12 each). It's rare for a family meal, the main one of the day, not to cost 25 dollars for 8 people. For Sunday lunch it is close to 45 dollars, even more if I invite some people from Church to eat with us. We drink 2 to 3 bottles of wine per week typically they cost about 8 to 10 bucks per bottle. Wife is Russian and they would die of sadness if they were not drinking. Nobody smokes, never have. Cigarettes here are 12 dollars per packet of 20.

Basket full of supermarket shopping usually comes to 200 to 250 rarely less. We eat about 30 eggs per week.

110k is not that much when you consider that is a gross.

Sigismund · « **Reply #16 on:** June 05, 2013, 09:36:58 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Actually, depending where they live $110 isn't an exorbitant amount of money. The really foolish thing is having her work, then turning around and placing your kids in child care; also, I imagine they probably need the newest and greatest car to 'fit' their family of 5 (a sedan would certainly not do!). But apart from that, living expenses here in California, for example, are really high, depending where you live; so living expenses and daycare at that cost would take a huge chunk right away, and considering the income tax and other taxes we have too I see that 110 grand going fast. Of course, there's no need to 'stretch' your budget that much. I can see them needing all the newest and greatest toys, cribs, strollers (I remember seeing tons of strollers well over $500 when we had our twins), etc.

It may not be exorbitant is some places, but I find it hard to believe that any reasonable family couldn't get by on it. They don't have to be Catholic. They don't have to live our Catholic values to manage on this amount. They just have to delay gratification and think in a straight line.

Renzo · « **Reply #17 on:** June 05, 2013, 10:02:14 PM »

Quote from: ggreg

Our gas and electric bill is $4000 per year alone. Local taxes police and rubbish collection are another $3800. That's $12000 gross income before we've bought anything just to legally live in your own house and not freeze to death. We keep the temperature at around 65F and at night drop it to 60F

Credit Card bills are 4000-4500 per month. We run two cars, a 1999 Previa and a 2006 Toyota Corolla. I do the maintenance myself. I printed off the bank statements today and for my own curiosity went through the expense we could cut if we needed to without much pain.

Wife has a 60 per month gym membership. She goes 9 times per month so that is about 7 dollars per visit. She has an iPhone costing 45 per month on contract, but she uses it heavily and really enjoys using it. 3 kids go to scouts. Fees are 50 bucks per month. Boy is in an after school soccer club which is 5 dollars per wèek.

Just had the kitchen dining room floor resurfaced in Amtico. Needed a new subfloor too. Builder friends of mine did it, cash in hand. 340 sqft. Vinyl was 30 per square meter, with labour whole thing came to 4200 dollars. Should last 20 years mind you. Every year I spend money on a similar project, decking, boiler, windows, fencing, driveway.

We eat great food admittedly. Lots of ham, beef, chicken, decent veg and there is always a fruit bowl and we eat lots of fruit. Typically, I spend about 7 to 10 dollars per kg on decent pork or beef. For steak, we eat once a month, double that.

We also buy fish and its pretty rare here to have a full vegetarian day.

Even meals like baked potatoes (my favourite) and cheese we will use a dollar of butter, 5 dollars of grated mature English cheddar, 1 dollar of baked beans, 3 dollars of tinned tuna and mayo. The larger spuds that roast well probably cost 5 dollars for 8 of them. I water down a litre of decent fruit juice costing about 2 per carton. So even a 'cheap' lunch costs 17 dollars to feed 8 people.

As a family we eat three Corn fed chickens in one sitting, bought in bulk frozen they cost 5 buckets each, ( at the supermarket they are 12 each). It's rare for a family meal, the main one of the day, not to cost 25 dollars for 8 people. For Sunday lunch it is close to 45 dollars, even more if I invite some people from Church to eat with us. We drink 2 to 3 bottles of wine per week typically they cost about 8 to 10 bucks per bottle. Wife is Russian and they would die of sadness if they were not drinking. Nobody smokes, never have. Cigarettes here are 12 dollars per packet of 20.

Basket full of supermarket shopping usually comes to 200 to 250 rarely less. We eat about 30 eggs per week.

110k is not that much when you consider that is a gross.

I think there's lots of ways you could save money, but I basically agree that in a wealthy country like the usa, with a 16 trillion dollar a year economy, we can afford to pay a family wage of about 100k per year to our workers. Our median wage right now is about 25k per year, but I think it should be about 100k. Of course that is a problem of distribution, not production. Our global economic leaders seem bent on depriving the general public of decent family wage. So, if you want a family, where mom stays home and you aren't in the top 10% of wage earners in america, you're going to have learn to do it with a lot less money, than would be generally necessary to live like everybody else. You'll have to figure out ways to get things done cheap and you'll probably have to do without a lot of things.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #18 on:** June 05, 2013, 10:07:34 PM »

Quote from: ggreg

Our gas and electric bill is $4000 per year alone. Local taxes police and rubbish collection are another $3800. That's $12000 gross income before we've bought anything just to legally live in your own house and not freeze to death. We keep the temperature at around 65F and at night drop it to 60F

Credit Card bills are 4000-4500 per month. We run two cars, a 1999 Previa and a 2006 Toyota Corolla. I do the maintenance myself. I printed off the bank statements today and for my own curiosity went through the expense we could cut if we needed to without much pain.

Wife has a 60 per month gym membership. She goes 9 times per month so that is about 7 dollars per visit. She has an iPhone costing 45 per month on contract, but she uses it heavily and really enjoys using it. 3 kids go to scouts. Fees are 50 bucks per month. Boy is in an after school soccer club which is 5 dollars per wèek.

Just had the kitchen dining room floor resurfaced in Amtico. Needed a new subfloor too. Builder friends of mine did it, cash in hand. 340 sqft. Vinyl was 30 per square meter, with labour whole thing came to 4200 dollars. Should last 20 years mind you. Every year I spend money on a similar project, decking, boiler, windows, fencing, driveway.

We eat great food admittedly. Lots of ham, beef, chicken, decent veg and there is always a fruit bowl and we eat lots of fruit. Typically, I spend about 7 to 10 dollars per kg on decent pork or beef. For steak, we eat once a month, double that.

We also buy fish and its pretty rare here to have a full vegetarian day.

Even meals like baked potatoes (my favourite) and cheese we will use a dollar of butter, 5 dollars of grated mature English cheddar, 1 dollar of baked beans, 3 dollars of tinned tuna and mayo. The larger spuds that roast well probably cost 5 dollars for 8 of them. I water down a litre of decent fruit juice costing about 2 per carton. So even a 'cheap' lunch costs 17 dollars to feed 8 people.

As a family we eat three Corn fed chickens in one sitting, bought in bulk frozen they cost 5 buckets each, ( at the supermarket they are 12 each). It's rare for a family meal, the main one of the day, not to cost 25 dollars for 8 people. For Sunday lunch it is close to 45 dollars, even more if I invite some people from Church to eat with us. We drink 2 to 3 bottles of wine per week typically they cost about 8 to 10 bucks per bottle. Wife is Russian and they would die of sadness if they were not drinking. Nobody smokes, never have. Cigarettes here are 12 dollars per packet of 20.

Basket full of supermarket shopping usually comes to 200 to 250 rarely less. We eat about 30 eggs per week.

110k is not that much when you consider that is a gross.

That's a hard knock life...

Matthew · « **Reply #19 on:** June 05, 2013, 10:29:47 PM »

Wow is the cost of living ever HIGH in England.

Everything you listed is more expensive than around here. Especially food, energy, taxes.

Zeitun · « **Reply #20 on:** June 05, 2013, 11:30:37 PM »

When I worked I earned around $75K+benefits. We spent every penny I earned (including eating out, gifts, vacations) and my husband's self-esteem was horrible. Now I am a homemaker/homeschool mom and we live on a combination of his wages and a small income I earn on the side. It's a big change but we are all happier. We are broke but I don't really mind. My concern is my marriage being stable and happy.

The hardest part for me is allowing him to make decisions and not countermanding. I'm getting better all the time though.

Iuvenalis · « **Reply #21 on:** June 06, 2013, 02:22:30 AM »

It's a bit of a shocker for me to hear this about *Minneapolis*. I used to live there, and housing, whether purchase or rent, is way cheaper than where I am at. 110K seems pretty livable there from when I lived there.

They must have 2 car payments, I had no car payment then. Gas is also about double what I payed then.

I would also pay a *lot* more in heating there than I do in California. I had an apartment there, but if I lived there now I would have a family, thus a larger space to heat, and I suspect it'd be a few hundred bucks a month to heat right there.

Taxes in that state are huge, I recall that as well. People I worked with used to commute from Wisconsin due to Minnesota's state taxes. Seriously.

110K still sounds livable.

You always have to ignore Texans on these things because they always live in a house that cost them twelve dollars. Housing is huge here in CA for example. My coworker out of Dallas (metro, I think North Dallas) owns her home outright in her 30's, so of course she spends nothing and is pretty obtuse about people who actually have mortgages or rent. Nothing wrong with her paying off her house, but she admits to being 'in the hood'.

My grandpa had a way of putting these lifestyle questions: "It's your time or your money, how you want to pay?"

I pay more for feeding 2 kids and a wife and myself (I'm a chowhound) than most here I would guess. I don't eat fancy, but I' not shopping around town for the cheapest oranges or milk. I just buy the eggs, butter, milk, or oranges at a reasonably price store and I don't buy organic. I've never saved enough to make it worth it by saving a dollar on what potatoes I buy, or buying 20 pounds of hotdogs and filling my freezer with them. I don't buy up all the milk on sale so no one can buy any. All that hassle of bagging things, freezing them ridiculous amount of the same item, shopping at several different stores, and strategy even if it saved 200 bucks a month is still 2400 bucks a year. A lot, but not going to make 80K feel like 160K, or even 100K. I use a freezer, but I'm not buying 30 lbs of ground beef.

We eat out about 3 times a month. If it's a sitdown it is 50 bucks (because of tip). I don't try to be frugal about eating out. If you can't afford to overpay for what you want and feel you could cook it at home so much cheaper so you'll just have the cheapest item on the menu, you shouldn't be eating out. Fast food is 25-30 bucks for us 4 typically.

The mortgage is what kills it for us. But that was a choice. We could rent I guess, but we can afford it. We don't do disney world vacations, we take vacations where we can drive to them, and before last month, hadn't afforded one since last summer.

We keep utilities surprisingly low (to our friends anyway). My toddler wears her sister's old clothes and we kept some toys. She seems fine with it.

More recently, there's been a little fat on the bone, so when my wife asks for a pair of shoes for the baby or a paper cutter on sale for her scrapbooking, I say 'sure'. Things have been too tight for awhile so it is good to enjoy a couple things.

That being said, living on a pittance is not necessarily a virtue. It could reflect laziness, or intellectual torpor, or headstrongedness and getting fired a lot etc.

It also is begging for trouble when a medical, dental, or home repair issue comes up that requires a professional. I recently did a little plumbing job in our shower, but I wasn't in over my head. For a wiring situation in the front of the house I needed a pro.

Some people take a perverse pride in frugality. It can go too far. It also puts a family unecessarily at risk. Saying 'the Lord will provide' is also presumptuous. He may not. He may expect a little financial planning, or other resourcefulness (besides frugality).

If you have 8 kids and you have no choice but to do the grocery store-hopping thing so be it (we started too late to have 8 kids, I wasn't Catholic until I was quite a ways into adulthood). Nothing wrong with it. but choices are choices. Some value homeschool, some value a private parochial school. Some folks are willing to pay more to live in a particular part of the country.

Working to keep your kids in daycare is baffling though.

ggreg · « **Reply #22 on:** June 06, 2013, 02:43:18 AM »

Electricity is somewhere between 15 cents and 25 cents per Kw.

My bill is 70 percent more than the national average energy, (gas and electric) bill of 2400 dollars for a few reasons.

Our full time AuPair lives in an Annex in the Garden. From late October to May this is heated at night, ( on nighttime electric costing around 11 cents per kw). Probably needs 1.5 kw over 9 hours to keep the chill off. So, a dollar per night or 200 dollars.

I heat my garden office during the day, with about 1.5 kw. That costs about 400 per year.

House heated gas, water filled radiators, is six bedrooms and built in the 1930. We insulated but there is only so much you can do cost effectively and without turning the place into a hermetically sealed disease incubator. Roof is well insulated with polyurethane and mineral wool about 12 inches thick. Keeps it cool in summer. Walls are heavy cinder blocks double 4 niche thick with a 1.5 to 2 inch cavity.

I could cut the gas bill currently around 2500 per year to probably 2000 by installing a new boiler, but a decent one costs 1500 even if I fit it myself, and unlike old gas boilers which were simple, they go wrong and need maintenance. My current boiler is 20 years old, but reliable as a train.

ggreg · « **Reply #23 on:** June 06, 2013, 03:01:47 AM »

I pay more for feeding 2 kids and a wife and myself (I'm a chowhound) than most here I would guess. I don't eat fancy, but I' not shopping around town for the cheapest oranges or milk. I just buy the eggs, butter, milk, or oranges at a reasonably price store and I don't buy organic. I've never saved enough to make it worth it by saving a dollar on what potatoes I buy, or buying 20 pounds of hotdogs and filling my freezer with them. I don't buy up all the milk on sale so no one can buy any. All that hassle of bagging things, freezing them ridiculous amount of the same item, shopping at several different stores, and strategy even if it saved 200 bucks a month is still 2400 bucks a year. A lot, but not going to make 80K feel like 160K, or even 100K. I use a freezer, but I'm not buying 30 lbs of ground beef.

If you have 8 kids and you have no choice but to do the grocery store-hopping thing so be it (we started too late to have 8 kids, I wasn't Catholic until I was quite a ways into adulthood). Nothing wrong with it. but choices are choices. Some value homeschool, some value a private parochial school. Some folks are willing to pay more to live in a particular part of the country.

The reason I buy in bulk is that we have a large storeroom off the kitchen and I hate having to remember to get stuff. In addition the bulk stuff is often better quality because it is designed and targeted at restaurants and cafes where commercial buyers know what they are doing.

So for example. Supermarket own brand sugar is about 1.50 per kilo. But in bulk, Tate and Lyle, a decent brand, is $1.

On a 25 kilo bag, not only have I saved 12 dollars but I will not run out of sugar for the next year. Same thing with Basmati rice, ketchup, tinned Tuna, which has doubled in price over the last three years.

Supermarket mince costs about 9 dollars a kilo for the lean stuff. But I can buy chuck steak for 6 dollars a kilo and grind it myself, then freeze it into small and large portions. Once you have the electric mincer out it does not take much longer to do 10kg than 5kg.

Burger and cutlets taste much better with chuck steak. No idea what cuts they use at the supermarket but it is not the same quality of meat.

Recently I ground Brazilian sirloin steak which cost 10 dollars per kg , it was a little tough as steak, and made beef burgers. They were the nicest I have ever had, for not much more than the lean supermarket ground beef.

ggreg · « **Reply #24 on:** June 06, 2013, 04:07:11 AM »

I pay more for feeding 2 kids and a wife and myself (I'm a chowhound) than most here I would guess. I don't eat fancy, but I' not shopping around town for the cheapest oranges or milk. I just buy the eggs, butter, milk, or oranges at a reasonably price store and I don't buy organic. I've never saved enough to make it worth it by saving a dollar on what potatoes I buy, or buying 20 pounds of hotdogs and filling my freezer with them. I don't buy up all the milk on sale so no one can buy any. All that hassle of bagging things, freezing them ridiculous amount of the same item, shopping at several different stores, and strategy even if it saved 200 bucks a month is still 2400 bucks a year. A lot, but not going to make 80K feel like 160K, or even 100K. I use a freezer, but I'm not buying 30 lbs of ground beef.

If you have 8 kids and you have no choice but to do the grocery store-hopping thing so be it (we started too late to have 8 kids, I wasn't Catholic until I was quite a ways into adulthood). Nothing wrong with it. but choices are choices. Some value homeschool, some value a private parochial school. Some folks are willing to pay more to live in a particular part of the country.

The reason I buy in bulk is that we have a large storeroom off the kitchen and I hate having to remember to get stuff. In addition the bulk stuff is often better quality because it is designed and targeted at restaurants and cafes where commercial buyers know what they are doing.

So for example. Supermarket own brand sugar is about 1.50 per kilo. (99pence) But in bulk, Tate and Lyle, a decent brand, is $1 (65pence). For the supermarket shopper they just need to keep it under a pound and people buy it. America is particularly bad for this at least New York and San Francisco are. Most items are rounded up to $X.98 or $X.99. Things that would cost 64c in the UK at just sold at 99c in the US.

On a 25 kilo bag, not only have I saved 12 dollars but I will not run out of sugar for the next year. Same thing with Basmati rice, ketchup, tinned Tuna, which has doubled in price over the last three years. Corn Fed chickens weighing about 2.8 pounds each cost $5 when I buy eight at a time from the meat market. In the supermarket the same chicken is $12. That is a large saving and would justify the gas to visit the meat market once a month if that was all I was buying.

Supermarket mince costs about 9 dollars a kilo for the lean stuff. But I can buy chuck steak for 6 dollars a kilo and grind it myself, then freeze it into small and large portions. Once you have the electric mincer out on the worktop it does not take much longer to do 10kg than 5kg.

Burger and cutlets taste much better with chuck steak. No idea what cuts they use at the supermarket but it is not the same quality of meat and the bolognese sauce or burgers or meatloaf don't taste as good.

Recently I ground Brazilian sirloin steak which cost 10 dollars per kg , it was a little tough as steak, and made beef burgers. They were the nicest I have ever had, for not much more than the lean supermarket ground beef.

TKGS · « **Reply #25 on:** June 06, 2013, 06:40:57 AM »

OK folks. We don't need to see anyone's budget here. It's really not relevant to the topic.

The fact is that a $110K family income is enough to live comfortably anywhere in the United States. Granted that one would not live as comfortably in, say, New York City (though I wonder if anyone can live comfortably in New York City, it's just not a comfortable place) as one would in, say, Minneapolis, but one could still live comfortably. Furthermore, on an income of $110K they should certainly not have any credit card debt.

These people have been living above their means for a long time and the debt is coming due. They are what most American families are and simply cannot imagine how to live without fulfilling their every desire immediately.

The only real question is whether or not they will be able make adjustments or whether they will continue to spiral out of control. The premise of the article is absurd, but its message is clear: Are you sure you want more kids? Very sad indeed.

Tiffany · « **Reply #26 on:** June 06, 2013, 07:15:55 AM »

Quote from: ggreg

I pay more for feeding 2 kids and a wife and myself (I'm a chowhound) than most here I would guess. I don't eat fancy, but I' not shopping around town for the cheapest oranges or milk. I just buy the eggs, butter, milk, or oranges at a reasonably price store and I don't buy organic. I've never saved enough to make it worth it by saving a dollar on what potatoes I buy, or buying 20 pounds of hotdogs and filling my freezer with them. I don't buy up all the milk on sale so no one can buy any. All that hassle of bagging things, freezing them ridiculous amount of the same item, shopping at several different stores, and strategy even if it saved 200 bucks a month is still 2400 bucks a year. A lot, but not going to make 80K feel like 160K, or even 100K. I use a freezer, but I'm not buying 30 lbs of ground beef.

If you have 8 kids and you have no choice but to do the grocery store-hopping thing so be it (we started too late to have 8 kids, I wasn't Catholic until I was quite a ways into adulthood). Nothing wrong with it. but choices are choices. Some value homeschool, some value a private parochial school. Some folks are willing to pay more to live in a particular part of the country.

The reason I buy in bulk is that we have a large storeroom off the kitchen and I hate having to remember to get stuff. In addition the bulk stuff is often better quality because it is designed and targeted at restaurants and cafes where commercial buyers know what they are doing.

So for example. Supermarket own brand sugar is about 1.50 per kilo. (99pence) But in bulk, Tate and Lyle, a decent brand, is $1 (65pence). For the supermarket shopper they just need to keep it under a pound and people buy it. America is particularly bad for this at least New York and San Francisco are. Most items are rounded up to $X.98 or $X.99. Things that would cost 64c in the UK at just sold at 99c in the US.

On a 25 kilo bag, not only have I saved 12 dollars but I will not run out of sugar for the next year. Same thing with Basmati rice, ketchup, tinned Tuna, which has doubled in price over the last three years. Corn Fed chickens weighing about 2.8 pounds each cost $5 when I buy eight at a time from the meat market. In the supermarket the same chicken is $12. That is a large saving and would justify the gas to visit the meat market once a month if that was all I was buying.

Supermarket mince costs about 9 dollars a kilo for the lean stuff. But I can buy chuck steak for 6 dollars a kilo and grind it myself, then freeze it into small and large portions. Once you have the electric mincer out on the worktop it does not take much longer to do 10kg than 5kg.

Burger and cutlets taste much better with chuck steak. No idea what cuts they use at the supermarket but it is not the same quality of meat and the bolognese sauce or burgers or meatloaf don't taste as good.

Recently I ground Brazilian sirloin steak which cost 10 dollars per kg , it was a little tough as steak, and made beef burgers. They were the nicest I have ever had, for not much more than the lean supermarket ground beef.

Ggreg I have to say you are a good shopper, grinding your own meat and buying chickens in bulk. We like Basmati rice too. I was fortunate to find 3 bags at the bent & dent store last September for $5 each.

Tiffany · « **Reply #27 on:** June 06, 2013, 07:35:02 AM »

If they are taxed around 40% that is 66K left right?
Their daycare bill is 18K and that is not including formula, diapers,
They earn too much for WIC, if they were buying their own formula that is big expense x 2. I have no idea how much formula is but I know it's not cheap and it's not something you can wait until next pay period, I could how people charge that. Same thing with diapers, you can't use cloth at daycare.
So they are left with about 4K per month after tax and daycare. not counting formula and diapers, if they were putting some into retirement they don't see that.

I don't see $7K in debt for a couple that earns that much to be that outrageous, especially being blessed with twins in the past year.

Iuvenalis · « **Reply #28 on:** June 06, 2013, 08:24:44 AM »

Quote from: Tiffany

If they are taxed around 40% that is 66K left right?
Their daycare bill is 18K and that is not including formula, diapers,
They earn too much for WIC, if they were buying their own formula that is big expense x 2. I have no idea how much formula is but I know it's not cheap and it's not something you can wait until next pay period, I could how people charge that. Same thing with diapers, you can't use cloth at daycare.
So they are left with about 4K per month after tax and daycare. not counting formula and diapers, if they were putting some into retirement they don't see that.

I don't see $7K in debt for a couple that earns that much to be that outrageous, especially being blessed with twins in the past year.

Close, at their income they are probably 38% federal, at least 32% bracket, then MN state tax (which I mentioned was higher than CA when I lived and worked there) on top. I've no idea what their mortgage or rent is, but they'll pay property tax on top.

I had no idea their daycare added up to that much!! Since their financial planner said they'd stop their retirment savings until their cc bills were paid I suspect they are paying into their 401K's pretax, which is 17K/year *each* maximum. Even if they did half, that's 17 K off the top total (instead of 34K), so they're making, say, 110 gross minus say 17K (combined 401K) = 93K, then taxed on that, then subtract 18K for daycare, then if they have a car payment (or two) that's 400 each (or at least one). Throw in MN utilities of 400/mo heat for 5 months of the year, 100 bucks if they have internet/cable, maybe kids activities, they both work so maybe they don't shop around much because they're tired, and/or cook less than they could so a stiff grocery bill, a hundred bucks a month for car insurance for the 2 cars, 400/mo for gas (which might be a bit low with gas prices), then maybe 100 bucks or 50 bucks a kid like every college educated person thinks is responsible into a college savings account (boy is that a sham!)..

I could see them making 110K/yr a 'scrape'.