Author Topic: coptic... (Read 2678 times)

ingenting · « **on:** November 21, 2011, 04:22:33 PM »

What kind of relationship should I have with the amazing Coptic Orthodox Church?

Sigismund · « **Reply #1 on:** November 21, 2011, 07:51:38 PM »

If you are a Catholic, you should recognize their valid sacraments from afar. You could also acknowledge that they are sincere in holding their errors. You should not be receiving their sacraments, save absolution if you are dying.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #2 on:** November 21, 2011, 09:52:56 PM »

There is nothing "amazing" about people who are outside the Church. Basically they are "Old Catholics" who broke away from the Catholic Church after the First Vatican Council. They reject Dogma on Mary and also believe Saturday to be the Sabbath.

You should not receive any of the Sacraments from them or attend any of their services.

ingenting · « **Reply #3 on:** November 22, 2011, 06:38:41 AM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

There is nothing "amazing" about people who are outside the Church. Basically they are "Old Catholics" who broke away from the Catholic Church after the First Vatican Council.

they are not old catholics they are coptic orthodox. unfortently they are not coptic catholic but coptic orthodox.

but do you really say that they are not amazing after watchig this video?

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

They reject Dogma on Mary and also believe Saturday to be the Sabbath..

i don't think all of them reject the dogma of mary. i mean in their heart they may belive in the dogmas even though it's not something official in the church.
and they celebrate sabbath on sundays.

Quote from: Sigismund

you should recognize their valid sacraments from afar.

?

Quote from: Sigismund

You could also acknowledge that they are sincere in holding their errors.

?

s2srea · « **Reply #4 on:** November 22, 2011, 09:38:55 AM »

Quote from: ingenting

they are not old catholics they are coptic orthodox. unfortently they are not coptic catholic but coptic orthodox.

but do you really say that they are not amazing after watchig this video?

Yes. They have removed themselves from the Church, and her teachings. Nothing but shamefulness about it. Do you propose one accept schism based on a video that is made to look nice?

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i don't think all of them reject the dogma of mary. i mean in their heart they may belive in the dogmas even though it's not something official in the church and they celebrate sabbath on sundays.

Quote

?......

?

Are you a practicing Roman Catholic Ingenting, or a Coptic Orthodox on a mission here?

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #5 on:** November 22, 2011, 09:03:27 PM »

So what you're telling me, ingenting, is that I should think a church not founded by Christ is amazing? Christ started ONE Church, that being the Catholic Church. Every other church is heretical and should not be attended (the Bogus Ordo included).

Sigismund · « **Reply #6 on:** November 22, 2011, 09:53:37 PM »

I don't think the Copts observe Saturday as the Sabbath.

They reject the Council of Chalcedon, and the Orthodox Churches regard them as schismatic as a result. It is very likely that this rejection was based on misunderstanding and there is some hope that this may be resolved. However, I think most of the people who are called Coptic Orthodox now will resolve it by simply being Orthodox, not Catholic.

By recognizing their sacraments as valid from afar, I mean that of course you should acknowledge that they have valid orders. They do. By afar, I mean that you should not be participating in their liturgies and certainly should not be receiving the Sacrament in their churches. I doubt that they would give you the communion if they knew you were a Catholic. Assuming that your are.

By stating that you could also acknowledge that they are sincere in holding their errors, I mean exactly what I said. You don't have to impute bad faith or dishonesty to them. I certainly don't. But it you are a Catholic, you necessarily believe that they hold to theological errors.

ingenting · « **Reply #7 on:** November 23, 2011, 11:06:54 AM »

Quote from: Sigismund

But it you are a Catholic, you necessarily believe that they hold to theological errors.

i personaly think their church should officialy accept the dogma of immaculate conception. now I don't want to judge the people in the coptic orthodox church. I know that many of them say that mary became immaculate only after the the crucifixion but i don't know what they say in their hearts. Maybe some of them belive in this dogma in a mystical way although they say they don't. I am not an expert in mysticism. What do you think?

Quote from: s2srea

Are you a practicing Roman Catholic Ingenting, or a Coptic Orthodox on a mission here?

I am not a Catholic yet but I will be Confirmed soon.

s2srea · « **Reply #8 on:** November 23, 2011, 11:21:58 AM »

Quote from: ingenting

I am not a Catholic yet but I will be Confirmed soon.

Congratulations I will try to say a few prayers for you today. Where are you being confirmed? By which bishop?

s2srea · « **Reply #9 on:** November 23, 2011, 11:26:17 AM »

Quote from: ingenting

i personaly think their church should officialy accept the dogma of immaculate conception. now I don't want to judge the people in the coptic orthodox church. I know that many of them say that mary became immaculate only after the the crucifixion but i don't know what they say in their hearts. Maybe some of them belive in this dogma in a mystical way although they say they don't. I am not an expert in mysticism. What do you think?

You're right to say we can not judge what is in their hearts. But we can judge their actions. And the fact that they've declared themselves apart from the Chair of Peter is a very grievous action, with grievous consequences; though our modern state of affairs would sadly downplay this fact. While we may assume people to be good-willed, this doesn't excuse one from making clear their error to them; that is true Christian Charity.

Archbishop Lefebvre said: "The nonsensical “everyone to his own truth” has become the rule; dialogue has become the highest cardinal virtue, dialogue which necessarily leads to concessions. Through misplaced charity the Christian has come to think that he must go one step further than his interlocutors; he is usually the only one to do so. He no longer sacrifices himself for the truth, as the martyrs did. Instead, he sacrifices the truth. "

Sigismund · « **Reply #10 on:** November 23, 2011, 10:35:21 PM »

Quote from: ingenting

Quote from: Sigismund
But it you are a Catholic, you necessarily believe that they hold to theological errors.

i personaly think their church should officialy accept the dogma of immaculate conception. now I don't want to judge the people in the coptic orthodox church. I know that many of them say that mary became immaculate only after the the crucifixion but i don't know what they say in their hearts. Maybe some of them belive in this dogma in a mystical way although they say they don't. I am not an expert in mysticism. What do you think?

Quote from: s2srea

Are you a practicing Roman Catholic Ingenting, or a Coptic Orthodox on a mission here?

I am not a Catholic yet but I will be Confirmed soon.

I am delighted that you will be confirmed soon. Congratulations!.

I am actually not sure where the Copts stand on the Immaculate Conception. If they are like the "Canonical" Orthodox, they believe that Mary never committed personal sin, but since they don't really believe in original sin, certainly not as the Catholic Church does, The Immaculate Conception is not really an issue for them. They describe Our Lady as "All Holy" repeatedly in the Liturgy. I expect the Copts do as well.
The theological problem with Coptic and Ethiopian Orthdox Churches is more fundamental than that. They reject the Council of Chalcedon, which stated that Our Lord was true God and true Man. It seems that this may have been because the people who became the Coptic Orthodox did not really understand the Catholic position and thought that the Church through Chalcedon had embraced the Nestorian heresy. Once the actual teaching of the Church is explained to them, they often have no problems with it. There are both Coptic and Ethiopian rite Catholics as a result.

ingenting · « **Reply #11 on:** November 24, 2011, 04:26:20 AM »

Quote from: s2srea

Congratulations I will try to say a few prayers for you today. Where are you being confirmed? By which bishop?

I think I will be Confirmed here in Stockholm and I don't think the Bishop of Stockholm will do it. My friend only got a Priest at his Confirmation. But I do think the Bishop of Stockholm or the Papal Nuncio should Confirm people in the Traditional Rite.

ingenting · « **Reply #12 on:** November 24, 2011, 04:42:17 AM »

Quote from: Sigismund

I am delighted that you will be confirmed soon. Congratulations!.

then I will be able to recive the Body and Blood of :king:

Quote from: Sigismund

I am actually not sure where the Copts stand on the Immaculate Conception. If they are like the "Canonical" Orthodox, they believe that Mary never committed personal sin, but since they don't really believe in original sin, certainly not as the Catholic Church does, The Immaculate Conception is not really an issue for them. They describe Our Lady as "All Holy" repeatedly in the Liturgy. I expect the Copts do as well.
The theological problem with Coptic and Ethiopian Orthdox Churches is more fundamental than that. They reject the Council of Chalcedon, which stated that Our Lord was true God and true Man. It seems that this may have been because the people who became the Coptic Orthodox did not really understand the Catholic position and thought that the Church through Chalcedon had embraced the Nestorian heresy. Once the actual teaching of the Church is explained to them, they often have no problems with it. There are both Coptic and Ethiopian rite Catholics as a result.

If Mary never commited any sin then she was Immaculate from the beginning. I mean, if she became Immaculate only after the Crucifixion she actually must have commited (venial) sins before that. Am I right?
and the Coptic Catholic Rite is very strange. The little information I have about it tell that it is anti-traditional. The Coptic Orthodox Church and the Coptic Catholic Chuch do celebrate two very different kinds of liturgies. I've never attended a Coptic Catholic Liturgy but I did attend an Ethiopian/Eritrean Catholic Liturgy.

copticruiser · « **Reply #13 on:** November 25, 2011, 01:48:17 AM »

Well I use to be Coptic myself before I became Catholic (Hence my handle name)

I can tell you that God allowed for me to be raised coptic and I was extremely grateful for it. We often would make fun of the NO's and didnt think they even compared to our ancient church which I believe was founded around 400ad.

Coptics believe it was the apostle St.Mark in Alexiandria that started it all.
The mass we use is Saint Basils Liturgy.

I am currently Ukrainian Catholic and we use St. John Chrystosms Divine Liturgy and my bishop informed me that they also use from time to time St. Basils Liturgy which is used in the coptic orthodox.

I do miss their strong reverence but I do not miss their vanity. It seems when they come to a rich country like Canada they get all caught up in material wealth and they rarely have more than 2 kids.

Im from Egypt personally (bad place to be right now) and in that part of the world gold is highly esteemed as well as class and connections. The last time I was there it was 1998 and poverty was high and the gap between rich and poor vast.

Im getting off topic (sorry) anyways when I attened mass women were on the right men on the left all women had their heads covered it was either kneeling or standing and when you received holy communion it was a room off the altar and both the men and women had to remove their shoes to enter.

The churches are beautiful with their domes and art work. Mary is the highest saint and we give honour and praise to her. The mass consists of coptic lang, arabic, and greek and latin (kiera elison)(cant spell)

This religion safeguarded my conservative attitude and kept me far away from any hope of attending or being apart of the NO. I will always be grateful for the foundation this religion gave me. Unfortunately they are not in union with Christs Church but there are Catholic Coptics which I know nothing about.

Gotta end here Im soooo tired and recently had a new born and have way too many farm animals and chores to do each day.

Imagine an Egyptian farmer homeschooling in Northern Canada??? God has a great sense of humour.

Night night. Annie

Nishant · « **Reply #14 on:** November 25, 2011, 01:51:46 PM »

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If Mary never commited any sin then she was Immaculate from the beginning. I mean, if she became Immaculate only after the Crucifixion she actually must have commited (venial) sins before that. Am I right?

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“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” St.Ephraem the Syrian, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8

St.Ephraem is but one of the patristic witnesses to the Immaculate purity of the Blessed Virgin, St.Ambrose, St.Hippolytus and many others come to mind, although some of the Copts today err on this point, because they are estranged from the one sheepfold of Christ under the supreme pastor He appointed . By the way, as you may know, "stain of sin" in the Fathers refers to "original sin", transmitted through natural generation, so that children are born deprive of sanctifying grace. And even shortly after Apostolic times, there is clear testimony to the faith that infants are baptized precisely for the removal of this sin, and that they may receive indwelling grace through this sacrament, though this sin is denied, or at very best, misunderstood, by those in schism.

Eve was created without original sin. Similarly, Mother Mary, the New Eve, who according to the testimony of Scripture, along with her Son, has a unique enmity with the devil, (Gen 3:15, Rev 12:17) at her creation, which for her was her conception, was preserved from all stain of sin.

In St.Luke 1:28, the evangelist who often gives attention to her Heart, and who almost certainly based part of his record on her own testimony, Mother Mary is hailed and saluted as “kecharitomene”, for the Angel knew his Queen. This often translated "full of grace" means, in more depth, “completely, perfectly enduringly endowed with grace” showing a clear heavenly pronouncement on her, the Ark of the New Covenant, being preserved Immaculate even before the Annunciation.

Congratulations on your confirmation. Blessings.