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Author Topic: Converts to oriental schismatic churches  (Read 2689 times)

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Offline Mabel

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Converts to oriental schismatic churches
« on: April 16, 2014, 12:39:04 PM »
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  • Lately, I have encountered several different scenarios, multiple times:

    1. Non-Catholics, especially conservative protestants, choosing Eastern Schismatic churches over Catholicism
    2. Catholics, both traditional and NO leaving the Church to join schismatic churches
    3. Catholics who switch between being Catholic and Oriental Schismatic based on where they are living
    4. Catholics who don't see anything wrong with this.

    I know this is, in part, the fault of the anti-Church, but I've just been astounded by the numbers.

    What is attracting them outside the Church? How I can I respond in a fruitful way, without increasing their resolve to join? Are there any good resources for dealing with these types of situations?


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    « Reply #1 on: April 16, 2014, 02:11:26 PM »
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  • With the Protestants, I'm fairly certain it's an issue with the Papacy. It's one of the main anti-Catholic arguments they have against us. like, it's to the point in certain Anglican and Lutheran circles, that the belief in the Papacy is the only thing stopping them from submitting to Rome.

    With the Catholics, I'm also fairly certain it's the Papacy. There's no other way.

    For the third one, there's probably no other option.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...


    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #2 on: April 16, 2014, 02:23:54 PM »
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  • I agree that there is the issue with the Papacy mainly and the beauty and pomp of the Eastern liturgy that attracts them. Also, the Orthodox may claim apostolic succession.

    People have a hard time separating what is divine and what is human in the Catholic Faith. Because of mismanagement and problems with the Ecclesiastical authorities and recent scandals, some people are ready to condemn Catholicism as a whole. From their point of view, the closest second thing to the original Christianity is the Orthodox Church, which keeps most of the purity of the Faith intact (prior to the Council of Nicaea) without being subject to Rome.

    These people seek the "basic" Christianity, the very roots of it, as to being closer to the Truth. They fail to see and recognize that Our Lord Christ founded one Church under PETER and promised to leave us the Holy Ghost until the end of time.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    « Reply #3 on: April 16, 2014, 03:03:48 PM »
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  • With the third option, it's probably some sedes that can't go to a sedevacantist chapel because the nearest one is nowhere near them, so they go to an Orthodox service as to avoid worship that venerates the Pope.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline ancien regime

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    « Reply #4 on: April 16, 2014, 03:49:22 PM »
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  • I can full well understand the attraction.

    Which one would you be attracted to:

    No. 1):


    or

    No. 2):




    We live in such confusing times, I'm not surprised at all that people would find the Eastern Orthodox Churches to be more attractive than the occupied Roman Catholic (Conciliar) Church.



    Offline Matto

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    « Reply #5 on: April 16, 2014, 03:54:14 PM »
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  • I know they are in schism and it is a sin to attend their services, but I think the schismatic "orthodox" are more Catholic than the Novus Ordo so I am not surprised that many would convert to them instead of the Novus Ordo.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Mabel

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    « Reply #6 on: April 16, 2014, 03:56:22 PM »
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  • Well, I'm not surprised by that. What surprises me is that people who know better are doing this like it is nothing. Others are not even batting an eye.

    What I'm particularly wondering is if there is anything I should know, or a better way to deal with these situations when they come about, or what to say to sway people away from schism.


    FTR, I know a lot of sedevacantists all over the globe, I've only known of one to go ES, but it wasn't due to the false "una cuм" issue. If that issue is driving people to the ES, we need to call attention to it, that it is a bad fruit and the idea is harming souls.

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    « Reply #7 on: April 16, 2014, 03:59:01 PM »
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  • EDIT: never mind
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...


    Offline Mabel

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    « Reply #8 on: April 16, 2014, 03:59:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    I know they are in schism and it is a sin to attend their services, but I think the schismatic "orthodox" are more Catholic than the Novus Ordo so I am not surprised that many would convert to them instead of the Novus Ordo.


    I talk to them and when you get down to it, their outward practices are beautiful and ancient but much of their theology is fluff and modernist.

    Recently, I had a discussion about what is permitted and forbidden on Sundays as a day of rest. It was like talking to a NO priest. No real answer and no real, solid principles behind it.


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    « Reply #9 on: April 16, 2014, 04:01:50 PM »
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  • If people want reverence and ancient worship, they can go to an Eastern Catholic church. Most of them avoid vernacular, NO-like worship.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline Mabel

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    « Reply #10 on: April 16, 2014, 04:02:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: JezusDeKoning
    They can do that at an Eastern Catholic parish!


    I'd love to direct to Eastern rites but some are just really bad. We've looked into them when we've traveled and there is no Latin mass. I almost need a checklist or a directory of better Eastern rite churches to refer people to, someone should rate them and make one for me!


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    « Reply #11 on: April 16, 2014, 04:20:46 PM »
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  • Look into the Ukrainian & Byzantine Rites if you're looking for one without much vernacular or NO malarkey.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #12 on: April 16, 2014, 04:31:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mabel


    I talk to them and when you get down to it, their outward practices are beautiful and ancient but much of their theology is fluff and modernist.




    This is true. Anyone that goes beyond the beauty of the Liturgy, will realize that their theology is incomplete at best. Most Easter Orthodox churches have fallen into Modernism also, even though they want to pretend ancient rites. Even the most conservative of all, the ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia) which I am familiar with, have fallen into the modernist trap. Nothing but the Holy Roman Church contains the Truth in its entirety.

    Here is an interesting video comparing the Orthodox Liturgy with a Novus Ordo Mass



    It is sad but true and quite embarrassing  :facepalm:
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Mabel

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    « Reply #13 on: April 16, 2014, 04:42:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Mabel


    I talk to them and when you get down to it, their outward practices are beautiful and ancient but much of their theology is fluff and modernist.




    This is true. Anyone that goes beyond the beauty of the Liturgy, will realize that their theology is incomplete at best. Most Easter Orthodox churches have fallen into Modernism also, even though they want to pretend ancient rites. Even the most conservative of all, the ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia) which I am familiar with, have fallen into the modernist trap. Nothing but the Holy Roman Church contains the Truth in its entirety.

    Here is an interesting video comparing the Orthodox Liturgy with a Novus Ordo Mass



    It is sad but true and quite embarrassing  :facepalm:


    I will have to watch that later, but hopefully I can gain better insight.

    Maybe I need to pray to St. Josaphat for help when dealing with these people.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #14 on: April 16, 2014, 04:58:08 PM »
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  • I think in a lot of cases, the person never really had the faith to begin with.  

    I've seen, especially on FE and SD, quite a few different posters either announce their abandoning of the Catholic religion, entertain it or say they "understand" it, even if they're not "personally there themselves."  What has shocked me is that for the most part, such posters aren't met with any serious resistance-- if addressed at all, they're told to stick their head in the sand.

    This is actually a fruit of dogmatic R&Rism, as well as Reform of the Reformism.  The principles of such theories are so shaky and cannot withstand the indefiniteness of our current situation that without an alternative (you guessed it, sedevacantism!) they abandon the faith altogether.  

    It's really quite sad.  It's ultimately the apostate's own fault, but the insistent R&R clergy contribute to this.  Their incessant, brainless and political anti-sedevacantism leaves tormented souls with no other option.  They eventually come to despise the Catholic Church and the Successors of the Apostles, because their clergy and polemicists insist on telling them they have to believe their Church is a whore and their hierarchy a conglomeration of fαɢɢօt pimps.  

    The Orthodox is a nice solution to such a destroyed soul because you retain the ceremonial pomp and circuмstance, but they don't claim any sort of infallibility so if they are taught the wrong thing or their leaders are a bunch of heretics, it really doesn't have any implications like it does in Roman Catholicism.  



    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).