Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Pelele on December 17, 2013, 01:12:51 PM
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If your whole family is non-Catholic and someone dies, do you have to give your condolences? What can you say?
From what i have seen this is an ocassion of sin of omission, because when you give your condolences they almost always will say "He/she is resting now" or "He/she is in a better place now" or even "He/she is in Heaven now and with God" and things to that effect, whereas you know that that is not the case, so you will either say "no, that's not true", or remain silent and give the impression you agree with that.
I know people who are Catholic and that is what has happened to them; some family member dies and they are forced to give condolences and then the other person says those kinds of things, and then the Catholic person doesn't know what to say.
If you don't say anything when they say the dead person is in Heaven now, you come off as cold and bad and like you don't care, but if you say "yeah" then you lie and sin because you know that is not true, or if you tell them the truth then that will just make them feel worse.
I think it would be better to just avoid the whole thing and not say anything.
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Catholics don't give those kind of condolences.
We may pray for the soul of anyone who died a baptized Catholic. I usually tell the relatives of the deceased Catholic that I will pray for their loved one and I will pray for Our Lady to comfort the living.
In the case of a non-Catholic, I tell the living, "I'm sorry for your loss. I will pray for you."
When I've been the object of condolences that conflict with the Faith, I just say "Thank you for your thoughtfulness." I'm not acknowledging their false prayers or inane statements, but I'm also not offending people when they are trying to do something naturally good.
You don't seem to be in the practice of acting as an adult in the world but once you gain experience, you will learn social graces. Social graces stem from kindness, which is a form of charity. Again, if you want to know more, you should really pick up some of St. Francis de Sales' writings, they will teach you everything you need to know about how to treat others.
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Catholics don't give those kind of condolences.
We may pray for the soul of anyone who died a baptized Catholic. I usually tell the relatives of the deceased Catholic that I will pray for their loved one and I will pray for Our Lady to comfort the living.
In the case of a non-Catholic, I tell the living, "I'm sorry for your loss. I will pray for you."
When I've been the object of condolences that conflict with the Faith, I just say "Thank you for your thoughtfulness." I'm not acknowledging their false prayers or inane statements, but I'm also not offending people when they are trying to do something naturally good.
That's what i wanted to know.
You don't seem to be in the practice of acting as an adult in the world but once you gain experience, you will learn social graces. Social graces stem from kindness, which is a form of charity. Again, if you want to know more, you should really pick up some of St. Francis de Sales' writings, they will teach you everything you need to know about how to treat others.
The thing is, i was raised in the Novus Ordo and as you know everything has been turned on its head so i have been suspicious of everything since i knew it was all a fraud. I don't trust anything on the face of it and i feel i must verify almost everything. I have had to re-learn almost everything by myself.
Most of the things i "gave for granted" turned out to be false, wrong, sinful etc. so now, instead of just assuming things, i have to investigate.
I was merely asking here how this was, and i said what i thought, and i am of course open for correction, and i believe you did correct me.
I have read most of the Philotea; is there somewhere where St. Francis de Sales deals with this very issue?
Also, i was just interested to know what would you do if you tell someone, im sorry for your loss, and then they tell you some of the things i said here.
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You could always just say something like "my deepest condolences for your loss."
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We may pray for the soul of anyone who died a baptized Catholic.
We may pray for the soul of anyone at all. We may have Masses said for non-Catholics, as "private intentions".
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We may pray for the soul of anyone who died a baptized Catholic.
We may pray for the soul of anyone at all. We may have Masses said for non-Catholics, as "private intentions".
St. Thomas says otherwise, even for Catholics whom it is clear they died in mortal sin.
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Catholics don't give those kind of condolences.
We may pray for the soul of anyone who died a baptized Catholic. I usually tell the relatives of the deceased Catholic that I will pray for their loved one and I will pray for Our Lady to comfort the living.
In the case of a non-Catholic, I tell the living, "I'm sorry for your loss. I will pray for you."
When I've been the object of condolences that conflict with the Faith, I just say "Thank you for your thoughtfulness." I'm not acknowledging their false prayers or inane statements, but I'm also not offending people when they are trying to do something naturally good.
That's what i wanted to know.
You don't seem to be in the practice of acting as an adult in the world but once you gain experience, you will learn social graces. Social graces stem from kindness, which is a form of charity. Again, if you want to know more, you should really pick up some of St. Francis de Sales' writings, they will teach you everything you need to know about how to treat others.
The thing is, i was raised in the Novus Ordo and as you know everything has been turned on its head so i have been suspicious of everything since i knew it was all a fraud. I don't trust anything on the face of it and i feel i must verify almost everything. I have had to re-learn almost everything by myself.
Most of the things i "gave for granted" turned out to be false, wrong, sinful etc. so now, instead of just assuming things, i have to investigate.
I was merely asking here how this was, and i said what i thought, and i am of course open for correction, and i believe you did correct me.
I have read most of the Philotea; is there somewhere where St. Francis de Sales deals with this very issue?
Also, i was just interested to know what would you do if you tell someone, im sorry for your loss, and then they tell you some of the things i said here.
From what I have read from you, it seems like your foundation is a little off. It sounds to me like you either need more time to build your foundation or to tear down what you have learned an re-build. You seem, from your posts to come across as harsh. You also seem inclined towards Jansenistic ideas. I'm not saying you are that way for certain, it's just that you appear to be that way. The Philothea does deal with general principles on how to relate to people without giving offense that could later harm their conversion, that is a typical fault of a young person or new convert, which is why I suggested you read it. Maybe even chapter by chapter, specifically put things into practice. We all need work, and I'm speaking from experience here because I have pretty much been in your place. I fear for myself for any scandal or harm I may have done in the past, who knows what damage I may have done.
Anyways, all the best to you as you continue to learn and pray. May the gentleman saint, St. Francis de Sales, be your guide.
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From what I have read from you, it seems like your foundation is a little off. It sounds to me like you either need more time to build your foundation or to tear down what you have learned an re-build. You seem, from your posts to come across as harsh. You also seem inclined towards Jansenistic ideas. I'm not saying you are that way for certain, it's just that you appear to be that way. The Philothea does deal with general principles on how to relate to people without giving offense that could later harm their conversion, that is a typical fault of a young person or new convert, which is why I suggested you read it. Maybe even chapter by chapter, specifically put things into practice. We all need work, and I'm speaking from experience here because I have pretty much been in your place. I fear for myself for any scandal or harm I may have done in the past, who knows what damage I may have done.
Anyways, all the best to you as you continue to learn and pray. May the gentleman saint, St. Francis de Sales, be your guide.
Yes, most of the time i am harsh, and say things i shouldn't, i know.
I have read all the chapters dealing with friendships and rash judgment and detraction etc. and i don't understand how you opposed what i said in another thread about social relations with non Catholics.
St. Francis clearly implies that we should not socialize or "be friends" with non-Catholics, and that any so-called "friendship" which is sinful or induces to sin is no friendship at all. He says that when the pretended "friend" induces us to sin he is no friend at all and should be cut off.
I am mostly harsh and upset because sins of omission seem to have been forgotten even by most "traditionalists" and a false non-judgmentalism has been supplanted instead.
St. Francis clearly says we are to call a spade a spade when appropiate, and even denounce heretics and schismatics constantly.
What he says is so radically opposed to what is going on right now that a novus ordo version of the book i have even gives clarifications to these chapters; it says that these chapters seem "from another world" compared to how things are now, and the "clarifications" are nothing but pure modernism: they say that "that was in St. Francis' time".
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What you did on the other thread was to ask for advice and then basically say you knew better.
Living our faith is offensive to the world, we need to take care that we don't give incessant scandal. That is why being harsh does.
Sins of omission are not always done with words. There are ways to correct people by saying nothing, like doing the right thing anyways before your entire family, without drawing undue attention to yourself.
Someone recently asked me why my family "dresses so nice" and I didn't tell the person that they dress immodestly. I told them that we try to honor the Mother of Jesus by being like her, to show God how much we love Him. (This was a non-Catholic who made the statement) I didn't take it as a chance to openly correct her, I took it as an opportunity to teach her.
When you are correcting someone, you have to question first whether it is your place to do so, and evaluate whether they have a good chance of accepting the correction. You shouldn't just go shouting at people and getting emotional, every mistake we make in dealing with souls goes with us to our judgement. For example, correcting a man's wife in most things, is not your place, or mine. Man to man or woman to woman, changes the circuмstance. Youngers should be careful to offer correction and admonition to elders, etc. If you are causing misery, contention, and a hatred towards the Catholic Faith, you are usually going to be out of line.
I've been in situations where I have had to cut off contact with people and family members, but I'm also in a different circuмstance than you. I wasn't under the roof or authority of another and I have children entrusted to my care. State in life also matters in such situations. I don't think you are able to see these distinctions, and that is why I did not agree with what you were saying. I wasn't saying that there are not times for open rebuke or to completely avoid sinful people.
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What you did on the other thread was to ask for advice and then basically say you knew better.
This happens to me often: i ask something to someone or myself and then after deeper reflection i realize that i knew the answer all along and i just had to think about it a little. Doesn't this happen to you as well?
Living our faith is offensive to the world, we need to take care that we don't give incessant scandal. That is why being harsh does.
You still haven't told me what you mean by incessant scandal or by scandalizing non-Catholics in general. Give specific examples.
Sins of omission are not always done with words. There are ways to correct people by saying nothing, like doing the right thing anyways before your entire family, without drawing undue attention to yourself.
I wasn't talking about correcting people when i said what i said, but about speaking the truth and professing it.
Someone recently asked me why my family "dresses so nice" and I didn't tell the person that they dress immodestly. I told them that we try to honor the Mother of Jesus by being like her, to show God how much we love Him. (This was a non-Catholic who made the statement) I didn't take it as a chance to openly correct her, I took it as an opportunity to teach her.
This is the kind of thing i don't agree with. Those kind of answers make it seem like its all a matter of mere preference, a mere suggestion, as i already said before. It makes it seem as if modesty were just a matter of "honoring the Virgin" as opposed to avoiding mortal sin and the ruin of others. The niceness/aesthetics of it is secondary, the main purpose of it is to conceal the body to not make others sin.
You don't have to be harsh either, and you can tell the truth without being harsh. I would have said "we dress this way because it is a mortal sin to dress immodestly and we cause the ruin of others by it, and also it just so happens that the way we dress is also a million times more attractive and beautiful than wearing pants and dressing immodestly, which doesn't look feminine nor attractive."
It all boils down to human respect and a false prudence.
Will the person get offended by that statement? Probably. Will it make her think that maybe she's dressing wrong and make her think about it? Maybe. Either way you said the truth and it's her own problem if she acts upon it or not. If she is damned anyways at least she won't be able to accuse you of not telling her the consequences of her way of dressing.
You said in the other thread that "Catholics don't shun", but even "Frank the Tank" is a witness that this was the very case before Vatican 2:
“The Christian who would bring the Gospel must go down this road: [must] listen to everyone! But now is a good time in the life of the Church: the last 50 or 60 years have been a good time - for I remember when as a child one would hear in Catholic families, in my family, ‘No, we cannot go to their house, because they are not married in the Church, eh!’. It was as an exclusion. No, you could not go! Neither could we go to [the houses of] socialists or atheists. Now, thank God, people do not says such things, right? [Such an attitude] was a defense of the faith, but it was one of walls: the LORD made bridges. First: Paul has this attitude, because it was the attitude of Jesus. Second, Paul is aware that he must evangelize, not proselytize.
http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-francis-at-wednesday-mass-build-bridges-not-w
How bout that eh?
You should also read this:
Easier to sin by false prudence than excessive zeal (http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/n027rp_FalsePrudence.htm)
If you are causing misery, contention, and a hatred towards the Catholic Faith, you are usually going to be out of line.
Matthew 10: [34] Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. [35] For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. [36] And a man' s enemies shall be they of his own household. [37] He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me.
I've been in situations where I have had to cut off contact with people and family members, but I'm also in a different circuмstance than you. I wasn't under the roof or authority of another and I have children entrusted to my care. State in life also matters in such situations. I don't think you are able to see these distinctions, and that is why I did not agree with what you were saying. I wasn't saying that there are not times for open rebuke or to completely avoid sinful people.
I do see the distinctions, and you seem to be suggesting that i never open my mouth nor say anything at all, just because i am living with my parents.
Well, that is not honoring one's own parents, to remain silent and let them perish in their ignorance.
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We may pray for the soul of anyone who died a baptized Catholic.
We may pray for the soul of anyone at all. We may have Masses said for non-Catholics, as "private intentions".
Indeed we may. We are well advised to primarily worry about the salvation of our own souls and leave judgments about the souls of others to the perfect justice and perfect mercy of God.
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We may pray for the soul of anyone who died a baptized Catholic.
We may pray for the soul of anyone at all. We may have Masses said for non-Catholics, as "private intentions".
St. Thomas says otherwise, even for Catholics whom it is clear they died in mortal sin.
Where does St. Thomas say I can't pray for someone. It is no use praying for the damned, of course, but none of use without some special revelation knows who is and is not damned. We don't know anyone's subjective culpability for sin, or the presence of absence of invincible ignorance. We don't know who repented before death. Padre Pio may have known such things. No one on this forum does.
You may believe in the strictest possible interpretation of EENS. Fine, but that is a theological opinion. Belief in implicit baptism of desire is a permissible theological opinion as well.
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We may pray for the soul of anyone who died a baptized Catholic.
We may pray for the soul of anyone at all. We may have Masses said for non-Catholics, as "private intentions".
Indeed we may. We are well advised to primarily worry about the salvation of our own souls and leave judgments about the souls of others to the perfect justice and perfect mercy of God.
I don't pray for the souls of the departed who die outside the Church, I don't know if they are damned. We just can't entertain good hope, for me, part of entertaining good hope would be to pray for them. We all know that if a soul is damned, God will take that prayer and the merit/graces will be applied elsewhere.
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Where does St. Thomas say I can't pray for someone. It is no use praying for the damned, of course,
That is what i meant obviously.
I don't know where exactly it was but it is common teaching to deny Christian burial to unrepentant public sinners even. Maybe someone knows where St. Thomas says it, but he's not the only one.
but none of use without some special revelation knows who is and is not damned.
We can and do know that those who die outside the Church and in public and unrepentant sin or heresy etc. are damned.
We don't know anyone's subjective culpability for sin, or the presence of absence of invincible ignorance. We don't know who repented before death.
Are you saying that someone you know may be in invincible ignorance?
I'm not talking about any of this.
You may believe in the strictest possible interpretation of EENS. Fine, but that is a theological opinion.
It is DOGMA, not theological opinion.
Belief in implicit baptism of desire is a permissible theological opinion as well.
Says who?
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Pelele,
I do believe it appears that you may have been out of line with your parents. Not knowing everything, I can tell you this, there are few times when it is necessary to correct our parents verbally. I cannot convince my mother through harsh words or reason that it is a sin to shop on Sunday. I've tried showing her moralists, she doesn't understand why the Church needs moralists to explain things or why they have the authority that the do.
At some point you have to realize it isn't in the will, it is in the intellect. People can't understand what you are saying to them.
So, I just remind my mother that we don't shop on Sunday. She already knows why, and I leave it at that.
Every Catholic knows we avoid houses of scandal, and we would only visit for good reason, which would be trying to convince the dwellers to give up cohabitation and confess their sins. That is not shunning, it is the refusal to acknowledge a sinful situation and give approval. A father might meet up with his son separate from his sinful life at a public place, or make other accommodations for visiting his child, without reference to the live-in. It all depends on the situation.
As for telling people about why we dress modestly, our main reason is because of our love of God and neighbor. Not because we don't want to sin, obviously we don't want to sin, but if you tell someone we don't do it because it is a sin, you are implying that you might do it otherwise or would like to do it otherwise. Our primary motivation should be to love God perfectly, not hellfire. If you start rattling off to a non-Catholic about mortal and venial sin, you are taking a chance they have no idea what you are talking about. Edification of your neighbor is about teaching them how to love God, not telling them if you don't do xyz, you are going to Hell. At hose strong words are for unrepentant sinners who know better. Like traditional Catholics who turn away from God to a life of sin, or obstinate, relentless heretics who know and understand the teaching of the Church, like Luther, or Arius.
You have to take people where they are at, work with what you have, and tread carefully. In your case, you aren't making many converts and you causing strife unnecessarily. (Btw, I think I said unnecessarily, but auto correct changed it to incessantly)
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Pelele,
I do believe it appears that you may have been out of line with your parents. Not knowing everything, I can tell you this, there are few times when it is necessary to correct our parents verbally.
Yes, it has gotten out of hand many times, but what happens is that i start out telling them something nicely or calmly and then they start screaming and yelling and saying where is that in the Bible etc.
They are novus ordo liberals who were indoctrinated in this new religion. I have tried to make them see that, that this is a new religion and that it is fake. But they are not "religious" in the sense that they don't really take God and religion seriously. They pray from time to time and have God and the Virgin on their lips but are not committed or anything of course, they are indifferent, and that is harder than someone who is not indifferent.
I tell them how opposed these religions are and i tell them all about the apostasy etc. and they just say "oh ok" and carry on like if i told them what time it was.
When i say something they don't care, but when they tell me things, because i don't socialize with them or the other family members etc., then they get upset and make a fuss.
They contradict themselves of course but they can't see it. On the one hand they don't care what i tell them but on the other hand they do in certain cases.
And also, my parents are the type of persons who yell at each other and raise their voices a lot, and even we their children treat them like that, we raise their voices at them and even say adjectives like "you're crazy" etc. I have told them they are pagans and atheists several times. But there has never been violence of course. I know this is bad and i haven't done this in a while but this is just the way i was raised and the way they are.
So in my house there certainly isn't that reverential type of respect towards parents that there is in other houses and families. Of course we respect them but it is very casual and like i said we yell at each other and there are a lot of heated arguments etc.
I cannot convince my mother through harsh words or reason that it is a sin to shop on Sunday. I've tried showing her moralists, she doesn't understand why the Church needs moralists to explain things or why they have the authority that the do.
At some point you have to realize it isn't in the will, it is in the intellect. People can't understand what you are saying to them.
So, I just remind my mother that we don't shop on Sunday. She already knows why, and I leave it at that.
Yes i know and this is what i have done lately, i have not told them anything at all.
The last thing that happened was that they asked me about a certain saint or something like that, and i said, why are you asking me if you don't even believe in the Saints to begin with? And they got upset and that was it.
Every Catholic knows we avoid houses of scandal, and we would only visit for good reason, which would be trying to convince the dwellers to give up cohabitation and confess their sins. That is not shunning, it is the refusal to acknowledge a sinful situation and give approval.
Well that's what i considered shunning. What do you consider as shunning then?
A father might meet up with his son separate from his sinful life at a public place, or make other accommodations for visiting his child, without reference to the live-in. It all depends on the situation.
Yes this is what the articles Fr. Sretenovic wrote say, and what i regard shunning.
But this doesn't exist in the novus ordo and the people here know nothing about this. There are illicit unions and adultery all over the place and they are all like nothing.
As for telling people about why we dress modestly, our main reason is because of our love of God and neighbor. Not because we don't want to sin, obviously we don't want to sin, but if you tell someone we don't do it because it is a sin, you are implying that you might do it otherwise or would like to do it otherwise.
I know and if the person didn't know i would say that too.
Our primary motivation should be to love God perfectly, not hellfire. If you start rattling off to a non-Catholic about mortal and venial sin, you are taking a chance they have no idea what you are talking about. Edification of your neighbor is about teaching them how to love God, not telling them if you don't do xyz, you are going to Hell. Those strong words are for unrepentant sinners who know better. Like traditional Catholics who turn away from God to a life of sin, or obstinate, relentless heretics who know and understand the teaching of the Church, like Luther, or Arius.
Only for unrepentant sinners? You must be joking.
How in the world will you teach only the "good" things without mentioning the bad?
People already know this anyways. Everybody has some idea that if you disobey God and you sin, you will go to Hell, what happens is that now what used to be sin is not sinful anymore and now people think that they aren't sinning or doing anything wrong.
What the world needs today more than ever is judgment, not mercy.
You have to take people where they are at, work with what you have, and tread carefully. In your case, you aren't making many converts and you causing strife unnecessarily. (Btw, I think I said unnecessarily, but auto correct changed it to incessantly)
I don't like to say "I" converted anyone, because it is God, but so far at least 6 people have been converted from me telling them what is going on, and i haven't even gone out like in a campaign or something.
Like i said, i have been taking my time for now and have been just gathering info. I haven't said anything to anyone.
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You could give them a mass card
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I think Mabel has some good advice here.
I am surrounded by NO and it is very hard. A priest once told me that you have to weigh up how your information would be received by a non believer or a NO. If what you say would be totally rejected as being 'mad' then you would use example as a means to let them know.
Mabel had the right answer to the person asking about their modest dressing. This could have sparked a curiosity on that person which may not manifest to anything immediately but some time down the line.
Your parents asked you about a Saint and you lost an opportunity to tell them about this saint because of your own frustration with them which is understandable but a little rash I think. Talking about this Saint could have stirred up an interest or a curiosity of the faith.
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I sometimes say, "Our thoughts and prayers go with you."
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If your whole family is non-Catholic and someone dies, do you have to give your condolences? What can you say?
From what i have seen this is an ocassion of sin of omission, because when you give your condolences they almost always will say "He/she is resting now" or "He/she is in a better place now" or even "He/she is in Heaven now and with God" and things to that effect, whereas you know that that is not the case, so you will either say "no, that's not true", or remain silent and give the impression you agree with that.
I know people who are Catholic and that is what has happened to them; some family member dies and they are forced to give condolences and then the other person says those kinds of things, and then the Catholic person doesn't know what to say.
If you don't say anything when they say the dead person is in Heaven now, you come off as cold and bad and like you don't care, but if you say "yeah" then you lie and sin because you know that is not true, or if you tell them the truth then that will just make them feel worse.
I think it would be better to just avoid the whole thing and not say anything.
Condolence is an expression of sympathy, especially on the occasion of the death of a person's relative or close friend or sympathy with a person who has experienced pain, grief, or misfortune.
It is simple act of kindness. There is no reason not to offer condolences to a non-Catholic person. After all they too feel grief and would appreciate knowing that you are praying for them in their distress. You can also say that you are praying for the dead person.
2 Machabees 12:46 tells us: It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
You see, these people were Hebrews.
Even if the person responds by saying "He/she is resting now" or "He/she is in a better place now" or even "He/she is in Heaven now and with God"
well the first might well be true. We pray for the dead "May he rest in peace".
It is not for us to decide the destination of the person who has died. We leave that up to God, and as Mabel said, God will use our prayers as needed.
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What the world needs today more than ever is judgment, not mercy.
Jesus did say that we need to be merciful if we want God to be merciful to us, and warned that judging others would get us judged more severely.
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Your parents asked you about a Saint and you lost an opportunity to tell them about this saint because of your own frustration with them which is understandable but a little rash I think. Talking about this Saint could have stirred up an interest or a curiosity of the faith.
Trust me, it wouldn't have. Nothing interests them at all.
Like i said, they are liberals, and they have a really corrupted idea of what free will and how life is.
They think free will means that they can do whatever they want, perhaps except murder, rape, theft and the like, and that they will be ok.
They think it ridiculous that God will hold you accountable for every little thing and every little detail. "God doesn't go around looking at every little thing you do and writing it all down" they say. The notion completely baffles them.
They have no concept of venial or mortal sin. They put the health of the body above everything. "It's good to exercise" they say. They live by the "healthy body healthy mind" kind of mantras.
They think modesty is ridiculous and they have attacked me severely on this point because my mother, who is almost 60, still uses really small shorts and dresses very immodestly. They think if you have an attractive body you should show it around. They are ok with Miss Universe and those kinds of "beauty competitions".
In short they are just faith-alone Protestants.
They love the Beatles and all the "music" from the 60's and 70's and onwards. They are baby boomers who stayed in those times.
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Ah that is so hard for you. I will include you and your family in my next rosary.
Keep trudging ahead anyway...as one priest said, perseverance perseverance perseverance
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Where does St. Thomas say I can't pray for someone. It is no use praying for the damned, of course,
That is what i meant obviously.
I don't know where exactly it was but it is common teaching to deny Christian burial to unrepentant public sinners even. Maybe someone knows where St. Thomas says it, but he's not the only one.
but none of use without some special revelation knows who is and is not damned.
We can and do know that those who die outside the Church and in public and unrepentant sin or heresy etc. are damned.
We don't know anyone's subjective culpability for sin, or the presence of absence of invincible ignorance. We don't know who repented before death.
Are you saying that someone you know may be in invincible ignorance?
I'm not talking about any of this.
You may believe in the strictest possible interpretation of EENS. Fine, but that is a theological opinion.
It is DOGMA, not theological opinion.
Belief in implicit baptism of desire is a permissible theological opinion as well.
Says who?
I'm sorry, but if you don't understand that believing in baptism of desire is perfectly I don't have the time to try to convince you of it. In my experience nothing good ever comes of discussion on this topic on this forum anyway.
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The above post should read:
I'm sorry, but if you don't understand that believing in baptism of desire is perfectly Catholic I don't have the time to try to convince you of it. In my experience nothing good ever comes of discussion on this topic on this forum anyway.
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The above post should read:
I'm sorry, but if you don't understand that believing in baptism of desire is perfectly Catholic I don't have the time to try to convince you of it. In my experience nothing good ever comes of discussion on this topic on this forum anyway.
I accept BOD/BOB yes, as the Saints taught them, only explicit and for catechumens, but i don't believe in the modern version of it, wherein heathens and all kinds of heretics and pagans, Buddhists, Hindus etc. are "saved" in their false religions but not "by" their religions, without the Catholic faith etc.
This is one of the main things the future Pope, if there is to be one that is, has to clear up once and for all.
The whole implicit bod deal is just so murky and vague that i don't see how it isn't any more than mere speculation and wishful thinking.
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Pelele, you seem to be confusing Baptism of desire with ecuмenism. Two different issues.
Anyway, it's a bit off-topic. We were talking about condolences.
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Pelele, you seem to be confusing Baptism of desire with ecuмenism. Two different issues.
Why do you say that?
Anyway, it's a bit off-topic. We were talking about condolences.
I think there's enough about that already and it's been covered.
Now i am wondering whether you could give your obstinate, publicly immoral non-Catholic family members presents.
I see giving them presents as nothing else but confirming them in their errors and giving them the impression that you can put Catholic doctrine and morals aside for a moment and pretend nothing's going on.
I don't feel capable of putting the Faith aside for a moment and joining them in their soiree.
I would rather they ask me why i didn't give them anything, and tell them it's because of the situation they're in. Maybe then they will see im serious about the Faith.
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I say it because it's true. These are two different issues. It shows confused thinking to act as if they are one issue. There's been plenty on both topics , if you want to search them out.
As to the second quote: it depends on why you give presents. Most people would say that you give because you love the person to whom you give. It is so for me, anyway.
But you seem to regard gifts as some sort of a reward system.
It makes me think of parents who say to their children "If you're not good, Santa won't bring you anything" or "if you're good Santa will bring you such and such".
I don't operate in that way, so maybe I'm not the one to be answering this.
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I say it because it's true. These are two different issues. It shows confused thinking to act as if they are one issue. There's been plenty on both topics , if you want to search them out.
I still don't know what you're talking about. Just explain what you mean.
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A Catholic is supposed to say in a non-Catholic setting:
"I will pray for so and so's soul. Only God knows if he/she is going to Hell".
Cut and dry.
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Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04653a.htm)
Church laws regarding public offices for the dead
There is no restriction by Divine or ecclesiastical law as to those of the dead for whom private prayer may be offered — except that they may not be offered formally either for the blessed in heaven or for the damned. Not only for the faithful who have died in external communion with the Church, but for deceased non-Catholics, even the unbaptized, who may have died in the state of grace, one is free to offer his personal prayers and good works; nor does the Church's prohibition of her public offices for those who have died out of external communion with her affect the strictly personal element in her minister's acts. For all such she prohibits the public offering of the Sacrifice of the Mass (and of other liturgical offices); but theologians commonly teach that a priest is not forbidden to offer the Mass in private for the repose of the soul of any one who, judging by probable evidence, may be presumed to have died in faith and grace, provided, at least, he does not say the special requiem Mass with the special prayer in which the deceased is named, since this would give the offering a public and official character. This prohibition does not extend to catechumens who have died without being able to receive baptism (see, v.g., Lehmkuhl, "Theol. Moralis", II, n. 175 sq.). For other cases in which the Church refuses her public offices for the dead, the reader is referred to the article CHRISTIAN BURIAL. (See also MASS; INDULGENCE; PURGATORY.)
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Have you read Liberalism is a Sin, Mabel? In particular, chapters 19-21?
From what you have said, it would seem you would think Fr. Felix didn't know what he was doing when he named his book Liberalism is a Sin.
The book says that it was actually published as "What is Liberalism?" in the first english edition, by someone with similar sentiments as yours i would think, since that is "non-offensive" to people.
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Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04653a.htm)
Church laws regarding public offices for the dead
There is no restriction by Divine or ecclesiastical law as to those of the dead for whom private prayer may be offered — except that they may not be offered formally either for the blessed in heaven or for the damned. Not only for the faithful who have died in external communion with the Church, but for deceased non-Catholics, even the unbaptized, who may have died in the state of grace, one is free to offer his personal prayers and good works; nor does the Church's prohibition of her public offices for those who have died out of external communion with her affect the strictly personal element in her minister's acts. For all such she prohibits the public offering of the Sacrifice of the Mass (and of other liturgical offices); but theologians commonly teach that a priest is not forbidden to offer the Mass in private for the repose of the soul of any one who, judging by probable evidence, may be presumed to have died in faith and grace, provided, at least, he does not say the special requiem Mass with the special prayer in which the deceased is named, since this would give the offering a public and official character. This prohibition does not extend to catechumens who have died without being able to receive baptism (see, v.g., Lehmkuhl, "Theol. Moralis", II, n. 175 sq.). For other cases in which the Church refuses her public offices for the dead, the reader is referred to the article CHRISTIAN BURIAL. (See also MASS; INDULGENCE; PURGATORY.)
I have apparently given Clare too many up thumbs, but I would certainly up thumb this if I could.
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Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04653a.htm)
Church laws regarding public offices for the dead
There is no restriction by Divine or ecclesiastical law as to those of the dead for whom private prayer may be offered — except that they may not be offered formally either for the blessed in heaven or for the damned. Not only for the faithful who have died in external communion with the Church, but for deceased non-Catholics, even the unbaptized, who may have died in the state of grace, one is free to offer his personal prayers and good works; nor does the Church's prohibition of her public offices for those who have died out of external communion with her affect the strictly personal element in her minister's acts. For all such she prohibits the public offering of the Sacrifice of the Mass (and of other liturgical offices); but theologians commonly teach that a priest is not forbidden to offer the Mass in private for the repose of the soul of any one who, judging by probable evidence, may be presumed to have died in faith and grace, provided, at least, he does not say the special requiem Mass with the special prayer in which the deceased is named, since this would give the offering a public and official character. This prohibition does not extend to catechumens who have died without being able to receive baptism (see, v.g., Lehmkuhl, "Theol. Moralis", II, n. 175 sq.). For other cases in which the Church refuses her public offices for the dead, the reader is referred to the article CHRISTIAN BURIAL. (See also MASS; INDULGENCE; PURGATORY.)
For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.
The Catholic Encyclopedia is already Modernist.
I have apparently given Clare too many up thumbs, but I would certainly up thumb this if I could.
Yeah, no surprises in you agreeing with that.
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I say it because it's true. These are two different issues. It shows confused thinking to act as if they are one issue. There's been plenty on both topics , if you want to search them out.
I still don't know what you're talking about. Just explain what you mean.
I suggeast that you do a bit more study. It's like apples and elephants.
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Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04653a.htm)
Church laws regarding public offices for the dead
I have apparently given Clare too many up thumbs, but I would certainly up thumb this if I could.
Picked it up for you; I keep getting those error messages, too. I don't keep count of who I thumb up :laugh1: In fact, I got an error trying to thumb you up sigis so somewhere in here is a message you wrote with no upvotes because I'd done it too much.
Good post to upvote, too, Clare.
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Thank you.