Author Topic: Condolences for non-Catholics  (Read 3453 times)

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Offline Pelele

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Condolences for non-Catholics
« on: December 17, 2013, 01:12:51 PM »
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  • If your whole family is non-Catholic and someone dies, do you have to give your condolences? What can you say?

    From what i have seen this is an ocassion of sin of omission, because when you give your condolences they almost always will say "He/she is resting now" or "He/she is in a better place now" or even "He/she is in Heaven now and with God" and things to that effect, whereas you know that that is not the case, so you will either say "no, that's not true", or remain silent and give the impression you agree with that.

    I know people who are Catholic and that is what has happened to them; some family member dies and they are forced to give condolences and then the other person says those kinds of things, and then the Catholic person doesn't know what to say.

    If you don't say anything when they say the dead person is in Heaven now, you come off as cold and bad and like you don't care, but if you say "yeah" then you lie and sin because you know that is not true, or if you tell them the truth then that will just make them feel worse.

    I think it would be better to just avoid the whole thing and not say anything.

    Offline Mabel

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    Condolences for non-Catholics
    « Reply #1 on: December 17, 2013, 01:31:44 PM »
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  • Catholics don't give those kind of condolences.

    We may pray for the soul of anyone who died a baptized Catholic. I usually tell the relatives of the deceased Catholic that I will pray for their loved one and I will pray for Our Lady to comfort the living.

    In the case of a non-Catholic, I tell the living, "I'm sorry for your loss. I will pray for you."

    When I've been the object of condolences that conflict with the Faith, I just say "Thank you for your thoughtfulness." I'm not acknowledging their false prayers or inane statements, but I'm also not offending people when they are trying to do something naturally good.

    You don't seem to be in the practice of acting as an adult in the world but once you gain experience, you will learn social graces. Social graces stem from kindness, which is a form of charity. Again, if you want to know more, you should really pick up some of St. Francis de Sales' writings, they will teach you everything you need to know about how to treat others.


    Offline Pelele

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    Condolences for non-Catholics
    « Reply #2 on: December 17, 2013, 01:44:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mabel
    Catholics don't give those kind of condolences.

    We may pray for the soul of anyone who died a baptized Catholic. I usually tell the relatives of the deceased Catholic that I will pray for their loved one and I will pray for Our Lady to comfort the living.

    In the case of a non-Catholic, I tell the living, "I'm sorry for your loss. I will pray for you."

    When I've been the object of condolences that conflict with the Faith, I just say "Thank you for your thoughtfulness." I'm not acknowledging their false prayers or inane statements, but I'm also not offending people when they are trying to do something naturally good.


    That's what i wanted to know.

    Quote from: Mabel
    You don't seem to be in the practice of acting as an adult in the world but once you gain experience, you will learn social graces. Social graces stem from kindness, which is a form of charity. Again, if you want to know more, you should really pick up some of St. Francis de Sales' writings, they will teach you everything you need to know about how to treat others.


    The thing is, i was raised in the Novus Ordo and as you know everything has been turned on its head so i have been suspicious of everything since i knew it was all a fraud. I don't trust anything on the face of it and i feel i must verify almost everything. I have had to re-learn almost everything by myself.

    Most of the things i "gave for granted" turned out to be false, wrong, sinful etc. so now, instead of just assuming things, i have to investigate.

    I was merely asking here how this was, and i said what i thought, and i am of course open for correction, and i believe you did correct me.

    I have read most of the Philotea; is there somewhere where St. Francis de Sales deals with this very issue?


    Also, i was just interested to know what would you do if you tell someone, im sorry for your loss, and then they tell you some of the things i said here.

    Offline Dolores

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    Condolences for non-Catholics
    « Reply #3 on: December 17, 2013, 01:47:09 PM »
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  • You could always just say something like "my deepest condolences for your loss."

    Offline clare

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    Condolences for non-Catholics
    « Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 01:49:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mabel
    We may pray for the soul of anyone who died a baptized Catholic.

    We may pray for the soul of anyone at all. We may have Masses said for non-Catholics, as "private intentions".


    Offline Pelele

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    Condolences for non-Catholics
    « Reply #5 on: December 17, 2013, 01:51:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    Quote from: Mabel
    We may pray for the soul of anyone who died a baptized Catholic.

    We may pray for the soul of anyone at all. We may have Masses said for non-Catholics, as "private intentions".


    St. Thomas says otherwise, even for Catholics whom it is clear they died in mortal sin.

    Offline Mabel

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    Condolences for non-Catholics
    « Reply #6 on: December 17, 2013, 02:07:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pelele
    Quote from: Mabel
    Catholics don't give those kind of condolences.

    We may pray for the soul of anyone who died a baptized Catholic. I usually tell the relatives of the deceased Catholic that I will pray for their loved one and I will pray for Our Lady to comfort the living.

    In the case of a non-Catholic, I tell the living, "I'm sorry for your loss. I will pray for you."

    When I've been the object of condolences that conflict with the Faith, I just say "Thank you for your thoughtfulness." I'm not acknowledging their false prayers or inane statements, but I'm also not offending people when they are trying to do something naturally good.


    That's what i wanted to know.

    Quote from: Mabel
    You don't seem to be in the practice of acting as an adult in the world but once you gain experience, you will learn social graces. Social graces stem from kindness, which is a form of charity. Again, if you want to know more, you should really pick up some of St. Francis de Sales' writings, they will teach you everything you need to know about how to treat others.


    The thing is, i was raised in the Novus Ordo and as you know everything has been turned on its head so i have been suspicious of everything since i knew it was all a fraud. I don't trust anything on the face of it and i feel i must verify almost everything. I have had to re-learn almost everything by myself.

    Most of the things i "gave for granted" turned out to be false, wrong, sinful etc. so now, instead of just assuming things, i have to investigate.

    I was merely asking here how this was, and i said what i thought, and i am of course open for correction, and i believe you did correct me.

    I have read most of the Philotea; is there somewhere where St. Francis de Sales deals with this very issue?


    Also, i was just interested to know what would you do if you tell someone, im sorry for your loss, and then they tell you some of the things i said here.


    From what I have read from you, it seems like your foundation is a little off. It sounds to me like you either need more time to build your foundation or to tear down what you have learned an re-build. You seem, from your posts to come across as harsh. You also seem inclined towards Jansenistic ideas. I'm not saying you are that way for certain, it's just that you appear to be that way. The Philothea does deal with general principles on how to relate to people without giving offense that could later harm their conversion, that is a typical fault of a young person or new convert, which is why I suggested you read it. Maybe even chapter by chapter, specifically put things into practice. We all need work, and I'm speaking from experience here because I have pretty much been in your place. I fear for myself for any scandal or harm I may have done in the past, who knows what damage I may have done.

    Anyways, all the best to you as you continue to learn and pray. May the gentleman saint, St. Francis de Sales, be your guide.

    Offline Pelele

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    Condolences for non-Catholics
    « Reply #7 on: December 17, 2013, 02:30:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mabel
    From what I have read from you, it seems like your foundation is a little off. It sounds to me like you either need more time to build your foundation or to tear down what you have learned an re-build. You seem, from your posts to come across as harsh. You also seem inclined towards Jansenistic ideas. I'm not saying you are that way for certain, it's just that you appear to be that way. The Philothea does deal with general principles on how to relate to people without giving offense that could later harm their conversion, that is a typical fault of a young person or new convert, which is why I suggested you read it. Maybe even chapter by chapter, specifically put things into practice. We all need work, and I'm speaking from experience here because I have pretty much been in your place. I fear for myself for any scandal or harm I may have done in the past, who knows what damage I may have done.

    Anyways, all the best to you as you continue to learn and pray. May the gentleman saint, St. Francis de Sales, be your guide.


    Yes, most of the time i am harsh, and say things i shouldn't, i know.

    I have read all the chapters dealing with friendships and rash judgment and detraction etc. and i don't understand how you opposed what i said in another thread about social relations with non Catholics.

    St. Francis clearly implies that we should not socialize or "be friends" with non-Catholics, and that any so-called "friendship" which is sinful or induces to sin is no friendship at all. He says that when the pretended "friend" induces us to sin he is no friend at all and should be cut off.

    I am mostly harsh and upset because sins of omission seem to have been forgotten even by most "traditionalists" and a false non-judgmentalism has been supplanted instead.

    St. Francis clearly says we are to call a spade a spade when appropiate, and even denounce heretics and schismatics constantly.

    What he says is so radically opposed to what is going on right now that a novus ordo version of the book i have even gives clarifications to these chapters; it says that these chapters seem "from another world" compared to how things are now, and the "clarifications" are nothing but pure modernism: they say that "that was in St. Francis' time".


    Offline Mabel

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    Condolences for non-Catholics
    « Reply #8 on: December 17, 2013, 03:07:11 PM »
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  • What you did on the other thread was to ask for advice and then basically say you knew better.

    Living our faith is offensive to the world, we need to take care that we don't give incessant scandal. That is why being harsh does.

    Sins of omission are not always done with words. There are ways to correct people by saying nothing, like doing the right thing anyways before your entire family, without drawing undue attention to yourself.

    Someone recently asked me why my family "dresses so nice" and I didn't tell the person that they dress immodestly. I told them that we try to honor the Mother of Jesus by being like her, to show God how much we love Him. (This was a non-Catholic who made the statement) I didn't take it as a chance to openly correct her, I took it as an opportunity to teach her.

    When you are correcting someone, you have to question first whether it is your place to do so, and evaluate whether they have a good chance of accepting the correction. You shouldn't just go shouting at people and getting emotional, every mistake we make in dealing with souls goes with us to our judgement. For example, correcting a man's wife in most things, is not your place, or mine. Man to man or woman to woman, changes the circumstance. Youngers should be careful to offer correction and admonition to elders, etc. If you are causing misery, contention, and a hatred towards the Catholic Faith, you are usually going to be out of line.

    I've been in situations where I have had to cut off contact with people and family members, but I'm also in a different circumstance than you. I wasn't under the roof or authority of another and I have children entrusted to my care. State in life also matters in such situations. I don't think you are able to see these distinctions, and that is why I did not agree with what you were saying. I wasn't saying that there are not times for open rebuke or to completely avoid sinful people.

    Offline Pelele

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    Condolences for non-Catholics
    « Reply #9 on: December 17, 2013, 05:32:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mabel
    What you did on the other thread was to ask for advice and then basically say you knew better.


    This happens to me often: i ask something to someone or myself and then after deeper reflection i realize that i knew the answer all along and i just had to think about it a little. Doesn't this happen to you as well?

    Quote from: Mabel
    Living our faith is offensive to the world, we need to take care that we don't give incessant scandal. That is why being harsh does.


    You still haven't told me what you mean by incessant scandal or by scandalizing non-Catholics in general. Give specific examples.

    Quote from: Mabel
    Sins of omission are not always done with words. There are ways to correct people by saying nothing, like doing the right thing anyways before your entire family, without drawing undue attention to yourself.


    I wasn't talking about correcting people when i said what i said, but about speaking the truth and professing it.

    Quote from: Mabel
    Someone recently asked me why my family "dresses so nice" and I didn't tell the person that they dress immodestly. I told them that we try to honor the Mother of Jesus by being like her, to show God how much we love Him. (This was a non-Catholic who made the statement) I didn't take it as a chance to openly correct her, I took it as an opportunity to teach her.


    This is the kind of thing i don't agree with. Those kind of answers make it seem like its all a matter of mere preference, a mere suggestion, as i already said before. It makes it seem as if modesty were just a matter of "honoring the Virgin" as opposed to avoiding mortal sin and the ruin of others. The niceness/aesthetics of it is secondary, the main purpose of it is to conceal the body to not make others sin.

    You don't have to be harsh either, and you can tell the truth without being harsh. I would have said "we dress this way because it is a mortal sin to dress immodestly and we cause the ruin of others by it, and also it just so happens that the way we dress is also a million times more attractive and beautiful than wearing pants and dressing immodestly, which doesn't look feminine nor attractive."

    It all boils down to human respect and a false prudence.

    Will the person get offended by that statement? Probably. Will it make her think that maybe she's dressing wrong and make her think about it? Maybe. Either way you said the truth and it's her own problem if she acts upon it or not. If she is damned anyways at least she won't be able to accuse you of not telling her the consequences of her way of dressing.

    You said in the other thread that "Catholics don't shun", but even "Frank the Tank" is a witness that this was the very case before Vatican 2:

    Quote
    “The Christian who would bring the Gospel must go down this road: [must] listen to everyone! But now is a good time in the life of the Church: the last 50 or 60 years have been a good time - for I remember when as a child one would hear in Catholic families, in my family, ‘No, we cannot go to their house, because they are not married in the Church, eh!’. It was as an exclusion. No, you could not go! Neither could we go to [the houses of] socialists or atheists. Now, thank God, people do not says such things, right? [Such an attitude] was a defense of the faith, but it was one of walls: the LORD made bridges. First: Paul has this attitude, because it was the attitude of Jesus. Second, Paul is aware that he must evangelize, not proselytize.


    http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-francis-at-wednesday-mass-build-bridges-not-w

    How bout that eh?

    You should also read this:

    Easier to sin by false prudence than excessive zeal

    Quote from: Mabel
    If you are causing misery, contention, and a hatred towards the Catholic Faith, you are usually going to be out of line.


    Quote
    Matthew 10: [34] Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. [35] For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. [36] And a man' s enemies shall be they of his own household. [37] He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me.


    Quote from: Mabel
    I've been in situations where I have had to cut off contact with people and family members, but I'm also in a different circumstance than you. I wasn't under the roof or authority of another and I have children entrusted to my care. State in life also matters in such situations. I don't think you are able to see these distinctions, and that is why I did not agree with what you were saying. I wasn't saying that there are not times for open rebuke or to completely avoid sinful people.


    I do see the distinctions, and you seem to be suggesting that i never open my mouth nor say anything at all, just because i am living with my parents.

    Well, that is not honoring one's own parents, to remain silent and let them perish in their ignorance.

    Offline Sigismund

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    Condolences for non-Catholics
    « Reply #10 on: December 17, 2013, 07:04:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    Quote from: Mabel
    We may pray for the soul of anyone who died a baptized Catholic.

    We may pray for the soul of anyone at all. We may have Masses said for non-Catholics, as "private intentions".


    Indeed we may.  We are well advised to primarily worry about the salvation of our own souls and leave judgments about the souls of others to the perfect justice and perfect mercy of God.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline Sigismund

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    Condolences for non-Catholics
    « Reply #11 on: December 17, 2013, 07:08:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pelele
    Quote from: clare
    Quote from: Mabel
    We may pray for the soul of anyone who died a baptized Catholic.

    We may pray for the soul of anyone at all. We may have Masses said for non-Catholics, as "private intentions".


    St. Thomas says otherwise, even for Catholics whom it is clear they died in mortal sin.


    Where does St. Thomas say I can't pray for someone.  It is no use praying for the damned, of course, but none of use without some special revelation knows who is and is not damned.  We don't know anyone's subjective culpability for sin, or the presence of absence of invincible ignorance.  We don't know who repented before death.  Padre Pio may have known such things.  No one on this forum does.  

    You may believe in the strictest possible interpretation of EENS.  Fine, but that is a theological opinion.  Belief in implicit baptism of desire is a permissible theological opinion as well.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Mabel

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    Condolences for non-Catholics
    « Reply #12 on: December 17, 2013, 07:25:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    Quote from: clare
    Quote from: Mabel
    We may pray for the soul of anyone who died a baptized Catholic.

    We may pray for the soul of anyone at all. We may have Masses said for non-Catholics, as "private intentions".


    Indeed we may.  We are well advised to primarily worry about the salvation of our own souls and leave judgments about the souls of others to the perfect justice and perfect mercy of God.  


    I don't pray for the souls of the departed who die outside the Church, I don't know if they are damned. We just can't entertain good hope, for me, part of entertaining good hope would be to pray for them. We all know that if a soul is damned, God will take that prayer and the merit/graces will be applied elsewhere.

    Offline Pelele

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    Condolences for non-Catholics
    « Reply #13 on: December 17, 2013, 07:58:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    Where does St. Thomas say I can't pray for someone. It is no use praying for the damned, of course,


    That is what i meant obviously.

    I don't know where exactly it was but it is common teaching to deny Christian burial to unrepentant public sinners even. Maybe someone knows where St. Thomas says it, but he's not the only one.

    Quote from: Sigismund
    but none of use without some special revelation knows who is and is not damned.


    We can and do know that those who die outside the Church and in public and unrepentant sin or heresy etc. are damned.

    Quote from: Sigismund
    We don't know anyone's subjective culpability for sin, or the presence of absence of invincible ignorance. We don't know who repented before death.


    Are you saying that someone you know may be in invincible ignorance?

    I'm not talking about any of this.

    Quote from: Sigismund
    You may believe in the strictest possible interpretation of EENS.  Fine, but that is a theological opinion.


    It is DOGMA, not theological opinion.

    Quote from: Sigismund
    Belief in implicit baptism of desire is a permissible theological opinion as well.


    Says who?


    Offline Mabel

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    Condolences for non-Catholics
    « Reply #14 on: December 17, 2013, 08:30:54 PM »
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  • Pelele,

    I do believe it appears that you may have been out of line with your parents. Not knowing everything, I can tell you this, there are few times when it is necessary to correct our parents verbally. I cannot convince my mother through harsh words or reason that it is a sin to shop on Sunday. I've tried showing her moralists, she doesn't understand why the Church needs moralists to explain things or why they have the authority that the do.

    At some point you have to realize it isn't in the will, it is in the intellect. People can't understand what you are saying to them.

    So, I just remind my mother that we don't shop on Sunday. She already knows why, and I leave it at that.


    Every Catholic knows we avoid houses of scandal, and we would only visit for good reason, which would be trying to convince the dwellers to give up cohabitation and confess their sins. That is not shunning, it is the refusal to acknowledge a sinful situation and give approval. A father might meet up with his son separate from his sinful life at a public place, or make other accommodations for visiting his child, without reference to the live-in. It all depends on the situation.

    As for telling people about why we dress modestly, our main reason is because of our love of God and neighbor. Not because we don't want to sin, obviously we don't want to sin, but if you tell someone we don't do it because it is a sin, you are implying that you might do it otherwise or would like to do it otherwise. Our primary motivation should be to love God perfectly, not hellfire. If you start rattling off to a non-Catholic about mortal and venial sin, you are taking a chance they have no idea what you are talking about. Edification of your neighbor is about teaching them how to love God, not telling them if you don't do xyz, you are going to Hell. At hose strong words are for unrepentant sinners who know better. Like traditional Catholics who turn away from God to a life of sin, or obstinate, relentless heretics who know and understand the teaching of the Church, like Luther, or Arius.

    You have to take people where they are at, work with what you have, and tread carefully. In your case, you aren't making many converts and you causing strife unnecessarily. (Btw, I think I said unnecessarily, but auto correct changed it to incessantly)

     

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