Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Adesto on November 09, 2007, 03:24:11 PM
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Apologies if this thread already exists in another form, I couldn't find it...
How far does charity extend when it comes to questionable companions?
The first idea is that Christ came for the sinners, not the saints. If we shun people because they do not meet with our personal standards (which we may or may not always adhere to ourselves) how are they ever to get an idea of what a Catholic is? How can we convert by example if we If we are not "all things to all men", how are we to be "apostolic"? Isn't it rather like barricading oneself in with all the medicine in the time of an epidemic?
On the other hand, there's the idea that if certain people are occasions of sin for us, we are told we must avoid them. People who lead openly immoral lives and who spout all kinds of dangerous ideas cannot be a good influence on us.
I'm just opening this topic up for discussion. I have my own views on who I chose as friends. I'm interested in hearing what others say.
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I think it's definitely wise to avoid those who are an occasion of sin for you. I have quite a few secular friends who lead sinful lives or simply have no faith. I've found that I've had to teach them how to respect my faith. For example, I let them know gently not to take the Lord's name in vain. I usually do this by asking them if they're praying whenever they do it, or something like that. They get it after awhile.
I try to keep it light, so I don't come across as mean or judgemental. Some of the main issues seem to be stuff about pornography and birth control. If these things come up, I calmly state my disapproval, and then we just move on to another subject. After awhile, my friends seem to learn not to mention things like that around me.
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I thought I'd add another anecdote here. My brother's girlfriend, a completely fallen away Catholic was making jokes about how when she was a kid, and took communion, that it tasted bad. She was joking around about how they should use ritz or something.
I don't think she realized that what she was saying was so hurtful. I just got all serious and said "You're talking about the Body of Our Lord". It was a little awkward and uncomfortable for a second, but I'm so glad I said something. I think after that, it was pretty clear that those kind of jokes aren't okay with me.
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It probably depends. If some would be a bad influence, then it would be better to stay away from them. For some people, all one can do is pray. Others the same as well as be charitable.
When some could be of good will, one might have to be careful what to say to them if they find some element of truth at first to be too strong to handle. It depends on the situation, of course.
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What about friends who are gαy? Has anyone found that a real problem i.e. things get nasty whenever you talk about the Catholic stance on ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity?
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I think it's not so much a matter of how objectively "bad" (non-Catholic) your friends are, but rather how brazenly evil they are.
If there is a good chance that you can influence them -- then why not be a good influence on them?
But if you have friends who seem to drag you lower than you could EVER hope to "raise" them -- then it's a losing proposition for you, and you might as well "shake the dust off your feet" and move on.
The latter quote is a reference to Our Lord's admonition to His disciples. They were to go to every town, but when they wouldn't accept the Gospel (=bad will), then it's time to move on and waste no more time with them.
There are plenty of confused/good people among non-Catholics that are more worthy of your time -- and you'll never find them unless you cut your losses with regards to (give up on) the "incorrigibly wicked".
Largely it's a matter of prudence, and not presuming on the strength of one's faith. Remember, stronger faith than yours has been lost -- many times. Why presume you're strong enough?
Matthew
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Why would you be friends with a unrepentant sodomite, let alone one who openly attacks the Catholic Faith, if ever there was a case of keeping bad comapny I would think this would be it
It is not a question of whether they meet our standards it is a question of whether they respect who you are, your standards, your faith and don't try and bring you down to their level or attack you because of it, if they do this you should recognise they are your enemy, they are actively trying to damn you to hell, they are the servants of the devil.
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I have a couple of lesbian friends. In the past I've had many gαy male friends as well, and I don't think I could keep them as a Catholic. I think it's easier with lesbians as they don't blab about their sɛҳuąƖity constantly like gαy men seem to.
I certainly never try to convert them. But I am very open about my faith. If the conversation goes towards the fact that my religion finds fault with their sɛҳuąƖ practices, I acknowledge that indeed it does. But then I make a point to say that I am a sinner too, and so I am in no position to judge them.
Are you asking because you have ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ friends that you're having difficulty getting along with?
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Perhaps I should stress that "friend" is one word to cover a multitude of meanings.
When I say gαy friends, I don't necessarily mean nearest and dearest. It could be someone in a group of friends, or in a wider social circle, or at work.
The question still stands though. How would others deal with making the Catholic stance on ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity known, when the occasion calls for it?
Edit: No, I haven't got problems getting along with them as such. I get along with everyone :smile: I mean that while I condemn their behavior I can still get along with them, otherwise I'd never have friends who were divorced or co-habiting either.
Its not an easy thing to discern when one is dealing with all sorts of people every day. If everyone I know knows me as a friendly, happy, devout Catholic, I'm not going to act different around gαy people.
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It would depend on the situation and who it was imo.
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Are you asking because you have ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ friends that you're having difficulty getting along with?
I'm not asking specifically for advice, I'm just throwing the topic open. I'm interested in what other views are :)
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I think it's just one of those things that you have to "be there" for. There's no reason to go around correcting people on their morals unless they're receptive to change, or at least to listening.
If it comes up, and they seem open to hearing the truth, go for it. I think it always helps to cushion what you're saying with a "I'm a sinner too" kind of statement. Also, it's good to somehow convey that you have their own best interests in mind. How living a life of sin causes them needless suffering, that sort of thing. But again, if they don't even have faith, there's kind of no point. Denial of the truth of God and His Church is probably a bigger deal than the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.
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Denial of the truth of God and His Church is probably a bigger deal than the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.
Agreed.
I've always considered that if our religion doesn't stand up to being challenged in debate then its not worth having. I've had seriously intense debates about Catholicism vs Protestant, or Atheist, or Muslim. I'm learning Arabic in my spare time so Christian vs Muslim debates naturally come up a lot. Yet I've read that engaging in debate about matters of Faith is dangerous because it can cause one to doubt? How else are we supposed to tell others about the faith?
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I think the thing is, there's no point in arguing with someone about it. If someone is just trying to convert you to their religion, then it's better to just drop it.
Conversion happens through grace, we mostly have to show our faith by example. Then, when someone begins to open up to it, that's when we start sharing the truth with them. At least, that's how I handle it.
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Conversion happens through grace, we mostly have to show our faith by example. Then, when someone begins to open up to it, that's when we start sharing the truth with them. At least, that's how I handle it.
This is a pretty important point. We ourselves cannot "convert" anyone, because that is something only God can do in the soul of another. In other words, we can't change peoples minds just by words, or even actions. If their free will is set against it, only God's grace can move it. We can be instrumental in that, absolutely, but conversion is a great grace, and I've seen it happen before that someone I knew more or less roped someone into nearly converting, who later threw the idea off and went rather wild. We cannot change people that way, because grace does not come from us. It's God's to give to whom He will.
It is important that if we have such friends, however, to openly practice our faith and not back down on matters of faith and morals. We don't have to be obnoxious about it or condemn others, but (especially if asked) we must speak the truth and not be ashamed of it, either.
Sometimes it happens that we ourselves haven't started out with a very good life, and we feel like the crowd we meet in the traditional chapel on Sunday is coming at life from a totally different plain. When you've begun by living a worldly life, it's difficult to throw yourself in with lifelong devout Catholics, who can hardly understand where you are coming from, and how hard it is for you to get where you know you need to be in terms of morality.
This has been my story, for example. Being around people who have never betrayed their baptismal vows by embracing worldly behavior or ideas just made me feel like dirt, when I already felt that way because I had begun to realize I'd been living with a not-so-Catholic mindset. They were a living slap in the face which I well deserved, but which I had little courage to face. Around the non-Catholics I know, I feel I can be a good influence on them, and also be reminded of what I'm trying to leave behind, how far I still have to go, and try to encourage them to go the same way. Because I didn't have a holy, pius childhood and teen life, I will probably always feel grossly foreign around my Catholic peers in everything but matters of faith and morals. For me, I feel trying to associate personally with those who will raise an eyebrow at what I call progress, but which they lived (or did far better still) from their youth, would only make me feel more horrible than I already do about my past (and perhaps even present life). The example I know that I am to the few non-Catholic friends I have, also keeps me mindful that I need to continue to do better in the future, in order not to scandalize them.
Call me seriously insecure, but that's how it is for me. But having been around that particular "crowd" and in turn, their "crowds" (sometimes even to the third degree), I can certainly testify that depending on how one conducts oneself socially, you can quickly and easily end up in situations dangerous in themselves, let alone to morals. The problem with the "everybody's fine" attitude shared by the worldly, is that there is little distance between the "pretty good" and the "really bad". Going out with one of my friends in our teen years, had she not known my morals (or had I not made them known), I could have easily ended up in some unsavory parties before I even knew where we were going that evening. Whether or not the friend engages in really bad behavior, they may have no problem if others want to in the same room with them. I was lucky. The friend I was with (who had the car), actually asked me if I wanted to go here or there before just driving there. A lot of teens might not be so considerate.
I think one has to consider a lot of factors here, not the least of which is the maturity and solidness of the faith of the person with the non-Catholic friends. Then the friends themselves should be considered. Do they simply lead one into sin? Are they a bad influence? etc... Will they be constantly blaspheming Our Lord? Or will they respect the views of the Catholic party? If not in speech, then why would they in their actions or decisions?
Friendship is a pretty tough topic, precisely because we don't really choose who we identify with. Either you feel that a person will understand you and that you will be comfortable with them, or not. We do have an obligation to protect ourselves and our souls, and there is a lot of danger to both especially in the teen/early twenty-something scene. However there is a chance that we may become a very powerful force for good in the life of someone who shows promise in that direction.
Finally, we are born in this age into a very, very immoral world, wherein more or less everything around us is stacked against the salvation of our souls. We are lucky anymore to be born into a Catholic family. Because of this, I'm sure I'm not alone. There are probably many other Catholics who just cringe with shame when they meet people who have been living it from birth, but who never could feel comfortable enough with them or understood by them well enough to confide in them or really connect with them. That is an unhappy reality of this immoral world. I continue to be drawn to people who are, like me, full of problems and still in need of working on themselves. Life has been pretty humbling for me in the last several years, and I don't mind stooping to the dirt to pass on a little light to a few souls gravely in need of it. But I also know enough not to step into the mud. Dirt you can brush off. Mud leaves stains.
Those who have been fortunate enough to live a totally Catholic life from the cradle, probably are in a lot more danger here than they may do good, depending on themselves. For those of us just climbing up the ladder, we've just come from the pit those people are in. Because perhaps we've been weak in our own lives and not done so well, we understand how important it is to be encouraged and not condemned. Perhaps more than that, those coming up from the bottom of perfection's ladder, understand a lot better why those who are at the bottom haven't started climbing, and more importantly, the endless frustrations and pain that they will suffer the longer they stay where they are. That kind of understanding, I think, can't come from the people who have never been down there. But it makes those of us who have (and who have a faith strong enough and prudence enough to not get pulled down) a vital stepping stone. To ask the non-Catholics to make a step from vice, sin and worldliness to perfection is far to great a distance for those souls who are still in their spiritual coma and whose wills have long since atrophied. But when they see someone who was like them starting up toward something better... I think that's worth a thousand words to some of those lost souls. And it speaks volumes about what's waiting at the top.
I would say having non-Catholic friends can be very dangerous. I would say it's certainly not ideal, and perhaps not even advisable. (Just so everyone understands, I'm saying the words in bold are the RULE, not the exception to it.) But I think there is room in God's plan for those who aren't perfect yet (but who are trying to get there), to act like stepping stones for those who otherwise might never have the heart to try.
I would say, then, let the more perfect and the saintly be the light for those only halfway up perfection's ladder, and let those who aren't in danger of falling from the middle of it, be the light to those at the bottom, or who haven't even started yet. We are the light of the world. If we all go into the closet and shut the door, the closet will be nice and bright, but the world outside will be a lot darker. And those in the darkness, if they came into perfect light, would hardly have the eyes to take it in.
Happily, I have found God can use the imperfect Catholics as well as the perfect, to call to His lost sheep who are outside of the fold. But to others, non-Catholic friends (or the wrong kinds of them) are a serious stumbling block, and perhaps a threat to their faith (if not other well being) in general. Such souls who find themselves going to confession more (or confessing more) when they've been with their non-Catholic friends, would probably do well to avoid them.
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I could be friendly with a person who is an obstinant sinner (I'm talking, unrepentant mortal sinner), but I couldn't count them as a friend. Our Lord had dinner with sinners, but those he said were close to him were those who were repentant, and did the will of the Father.
Friends are people who I can also admire, but I can not admire an unrepentant sinner. Jesus comes first.