Author Topic: Commemorative stamp for ABP. Lefebvre?  (Read 427 times)

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Offline Stands2Reezn

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Commemorative stamp for ABP. Lefebvre?
« on: November 06, 2017, 02:06:59 PM »
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  • Consider...

    Rev. Franz Schmidberger, the German designated by Archbishop Lefebvre to succeed him as head of the dissident order, said, "May God reward him for his life entirely devoted to defend the Catholic faith against heresy." Indeed, the last time this phrase "defend the Catholic faith" was distinguished, was to the honor of schismatic HenryVIII, and we all know the phrase was dirtied by his making it a mockery by assigning it to the Church of England. 
     
    In our long sacred history of our beautiful Faith, we have heard of many who have gone on to glory after a life of duty and faithfulness to our Leader after taking an unpopular moral position despite the odds and risks of where their decisions may lead them. Some even rank with the Saints. Their cases may have created rifts in conscience for their fellow members, such as St. Thomas More's effect on the Bishops when he was called by Christ to hold fast to his beliefs for the sake of the Faith. Many of them decided to save their necks rather than save their standing in the Church. These received empathy of sorts in their case, and the absent lack of excommunications of course were understandable. Some may have thought, "After all, they had their temporal lives to lose" was the justification.
     
    Some may abstract somewhat and wonder about these deviant members of our fourteenth century community. We are in awe for a second in interest, then move on. But in some centuries we are tested by yet another case. Now we are closely being watched again. It would seem we can do nothing to help these people except perhaps a mass offering and fasting.
     
    I present for consideration one man with an exemplary holy career Abp. Marcel LeFebvre. He like Thomas More and others struggled with disobedience for the sake of Truth and conscience. He also hated to say no to this non ex cathedra teaching presented for his signing. In his conversation later in the French media, LeFebvre states how he pleaded for the Pontiff to declare his decision infallible, a most perfect solution to his dilemna, but to no avail.
     
    Anyway, good news. We are in the era of ecumenical reconciliation, and with this honorable standard being applied in that spirit before us every day in the atmosphere of dialogue and commemoration, we have in those examples another yardstick that brings me here to talk to you. These times of commemoration should not pass without speaking of this man's justice by giving his case a closer examination. No doubt a close scrutiny will only have us pick up the honorable literary words out of the dirt after 600 years the words, " Defender of the Faith".
     
    Through communal Sensus Fidelium, we sense the need to honor a true Minister to Our Lord's cause, one who has called to raise his Shield of Defense against inner and outer forces, his Excellency, Archbishop Marcel LeFebvre. We the Common Priesthood of the Faithful*, and in the current ecumenical spirit of reconciliation hereby submit to His Holiness our desire to have a commemorative stamp made and a mass said for the repose of his soul.

    The title should read the deserving "Defender of the Faith". 

    *Ref: Vatican Paper, "Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration Of The Non-Ordained Faithful In The
    Sacred Ministry Of Priest"


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Commemorative stamp for ABP. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #1 on: November 06, 2017, 02:22:56 PM »
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    hereby submit to His Holiness our desire
    I have to say that I would question the honesty of any thinking Catholic that calls Bergolio "His Holiness". 

    I can't deny that he was elected pope, the elections were seen by everyone, so they call can him pope, however, calling him His Holiness or Holy Father, makes me suspicious of the person.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Online Neil Obstat

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    Re: Commemorative stamp for ABP. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #2 on: November 06, 2017, 08:19:46 PM »
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  • I have to say that I would question the honesty of any thinking Catholic that calls Bergolio "His Holiness".

    I can't deny that he was elected pope, the elections were seen by everyone, so they call can him pope, however, calling him His Holiness or Holy Father, makes me suspicious of the person.
    .
    Interestingly, you've passed up other questionable nuances to settle entirely on just one.
    .
    Quote
    Through communal Sensus Fidelium, we sense the need to honor a true Minister to Our Lord's cause, one who has called to raise his Shield of Defense against inner and outer forces, his Excellency, Archbishop Marcel LeFebvre. We the Common Priesthood of the Faithful*, and in the current ecumenical spirit of reconciliation hereby submit to His Holiness our desire to have a commemorative stamp made and a mass said for the repose of his soul.

    The title should read the deserving "Defender of the Faith".  

    *Ref: Vatican Paper, "Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration Of The Non-Ordained Faithful In The
    Sacred Ministry Of Priest"
    .
    The "Common Priesthood of the Faithful" collaborates in the ministry of Priest (so who needs to be ordained then?), and the "mass said" for the repose of his soul would be a Novus Ordo mass, correct? It doesn't say otherwise and that's the so-called Ordinary rite, after all. BTW the so-called mass might be celebrated by a layman if you read between the lines. (Non-ordained faithful = laymen)
    .
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    Offline Stands2Reezn

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    Re: Commemorative stamp for ABP. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #3 on: November 06, 2017, 09:53:30 PM »
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  • .
    Interestingly, you've passed up other questionable nuances to settle entirely on just one.
    ..
    The "Common Priesthood of the Faithful" collaborates in the ministry of Priest (so who needs to be ordained then?), and the "mass said" for the repose of his soul would be a Novus Ordo mass, correct? It doesn't say otherwise and that's the so-called Ordinary rite, after all. BTW the so-called mass might be celebrated by a layman if you read between the lines. (Non-ordained faithful = laymen)
    .
    My approach will always be hope for change in the attitudes of the Magesterium. I am committed to VI, and so far the resistance I have met was only to be ignored. Ignored is OK. I hope to be respectful of their position. We recall our Lord reminded St. Therese de Liseaux, (Pre VII) that she should still respect her confessor, and that He was well aware of his disposition. Nuns had it tough through the ages with priests who did not practice self control. I think we also need to be aware that the Holy Spirit works in them for change, and we have to be patient while He guides them to that end. The Holy Spirit usually doesn't work by our time table. 

    Your right about the Common Priesthood, but it is an independant disitinction and an aspect of the Church.
    From:Conscience in Conflict, Kenneth R Overberg S.J. p54

           "Just as the Church holds that the Spirit infallibly guides  the magisterium so that it does not propose teachings that would lead the whole Church into error, so it also holds that the faithful, as a whole, have an instinct of "sense" about when a teaching is ,or is not, in harmony with the true Faith. This is special sensus fidelium,"consensus of the faithful" is one of the ways the Spirit protects God's people from error."

    It's entrenched in VII. It goes on...

           "Vatican II described this aspect of the Church when it taught: "The whole body of the faithful who have received an annointing which comes from the holy one (John 2:20. 27) cannot be mistaken in belief. It shows this characteristic through the entire people's supernatural sense of faith, when, 'from the bishops to the last of the faithful', it manifests a universal consensus in matters of faith and morals." (Dogmatic constitution of the Church #12) 

     Hence the above emphasizes the Traditional cause.

    "Between the lines". aH-Ah, you caught on! If their is any sincerity at all, it would be a good gesture in the public eyes.

    Masses: Google has an old Secular Franciscan manual of the 14th century,. it has a chapter that reminds the Brothers/Sisters of having masses said for the souls of the deceased. The Great Deposit probably has other ancient teachings as well.

      

    Offline Stands2Reezn

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    Re: Commemorative stamp for ABP. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #4 on: November 06, 2017, 10:08:39 PM »
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  • I have to say that I would question the honesty of any thinking Catholic that calls Bergolio "His Holiness".

    I can't deny that he was elected pope, the elections were seen by everyone, so they call can him pope, however, calling him His Holiness or Holy Father, makes me suspicious of the person.

    The "Seat" and Ministry is Holy. I have known a lot of priests in my life, and some were a bit questionable in habit, but they have always been good priests, but yes, not perfect. But even then God called them to fill the posts of His perfect Ministry.

    When all the dust settles in our disputes, in order to be true Catholics, we will still need to convey respect for the positions they hold, otherwise our arguments are empty, and the church will be just another christian church. There is one priest that doesn't think much of me, but I will always bow when I see him. That too is tradition.


    Online Neil Obstat

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    Re: Commemorative stamp for ABP. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #5 on: November 07, 2017, 11:43:50 AM »
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    When you reply to a post you should put your reply outside the quote box or else readers can't see where your reply starts and where the post you're quoting ends. 
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    Online Neil Obstat

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    Re: Commemorative stamp for ABP. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #6 on: November 07, 2017, 11:57:35 AM »
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  • ..

    Quote
    My approach will always be hope for change in the attitudes of the Magesterium.
    .
    I'll presume you mean Magisterium.
    .
    What do you mean by "the attitudes" of the Magisterium? Since when does the Magisterium have "attitudes?"
    .
    The Magisterium (singular noun, neuter gender, applies to a thing, not to a person, and certainly not to multiple persons!) is the teaching office of the Church, which is not a person, and as such cannot have any "attitudes."
    .
    Quote
    We recall our Lord reminded St. Therese de Liseaux...
    .
    You would be referring to St. Therese de Lisieux, the "Little Flower?"
    .
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    Online Neil Obstat

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    Re: Commemorative stamp for ABP. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #7 on: November 07, 2017, 12:28:15 PM »
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  • .
    Your reply ought to appear something like this:
    .
    Quote
    Posted by: Stands2Reezn
    « on: Yesterday at 08:08:39 PM


    Quote from: Last Tradhican on Yesterday at 12:22:56 PM
    Quote
    I have to say that I would question the honesty of any thinking Catholic that calls Bergolio "His Holiness". 

    I can't deny that he was elected pope, the elections were seen by everyone, so they call can him pope, however, calling him His Holiness or Holy Father, makes me suspicious of the person.

    The "Seat" and Ministry is Holy. I have known a lot of priests in my life, and some were a bit questionable in habit, but they have always been good priests, but yes, not perfect. But even then God called them to fill the posts of His perfect Ministry.

    When all the dust settles in our disputes, in order to be true Catholics, we will still need to convey respect for the positions they hold, otherwise our arguments are empty, and the church will be just another christian church. There is one priest that doesn't think much of me, but I will always bow when I see him. That too is tradition.
    .
    There are some who claim that Jorge Bergoglio was not validly consecrated a bishop, nor was he validly ordained a priest (having used the Newchurch formula which is substantially different from the traditional formula), consequently they consider him a layman. However, according to the screed you posted in the OP (*Ref: Vatican Paper, "Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration Of The Non-Ordained Faithful In The Sacred Ministry Of Priest"), even laymen can participate in the sacred ministry of priests. 
    .
    Are you seeing "between the lines" yet? 
    .
    According to the new ecclesiology of Vatican II, there is no distinction between priests and laymen. We all share in the priesthood of the laity, they say ("the common priesthood of the faithful").
    .
    When you claim, "That too is tradition" you're hearkening back to a time when there was a distinction between laymen and priests and even more so between laymen and bishops. The removal of that distinction has no part with tradition.
    .
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Commemorative stamp for ABP. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #8 on: November 07, 2017, 05:58:41 PM »
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    When all the dust settles in our disputes, in order to be true Catholics, we will still need to convey respect for the positions they hold
    I do not believe he is even a validly ordained priest, let alone a bishop or pope. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Stands2Reezn

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    Re: Commemorative stamp for ABP. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #9 on: November 07, 2017, 06:52:00 PM »
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  • Consider...

    Rev. Franz Schmidberger, the German designated by Archbishop Lefebvre to succeed him as head of the dissident order, said, "May God reward him for his life entirely devoted to defend the Catholic faith against heresy." Indeed, the last time this phrase "defend the Catholic faith" was distinguished, was to the honor of schismatic HenryVIII, and we all know the phrase was dirtied by his making it a mockery by assigning it to the Church of England.  
     
    In our long sacred history of our beautiful Faith, we have heard of many who have gone on to glory after a life of duty and faithfulness to our Leader after taking an unpopular moral position despite the odds and risks of where their decisions may lead them. Some even rank with the Saints. Their cases may have created rifts in conscience for their fellow members, such as St. Thomas More's effect on the Bishops when he was called by Christ to hold fast to his beliefs for the sake of the Faith. Many of them decided to save their necks rather than save their standing in the Church. These received empathy of sorts in their case, and the absent lack of excommunications of course were understandable. Some may have thought, "After all, they had their temporal lives to lose" was the justification.
     
    Some may abstract somewhat and wonder about these deviant members of our fourteenth century community. We are in awe for a second in interest, then move on. But in some centuries we are tested by yet another case. Now we are closely being watched again. It would seem we can do nothing to help these people except perhaps a mass offering and fasting.
     
    I present for consideration one man with an exemplary holy career Abp. Marcel LeFebvre. He like Thomas More and others struggled with disobedience for the sake of Truth and conscience. He also hated to say no to this non ex cathedra teaching presented for his signing. In his conversation later in the French media, LeFebvre states how he pleaded for the Pontiff to declare his decision infallible, a most perfect solution to his dilemna, but to no avail.
     
    Anyway, good news. We are in the era of ecumenical reconciliation, and with this honorable standard being applied in that spirit before us every day in the atmosphere of dialogue and commemoration, we have in those examples another yardstick that brings me here to talk to you. These times of commemoration should not pass without speaking of this man's justice by giving his case a closer examination. No doubt a close scrutiny will only have us pick up the honorable literary words out of the dirt after 600 years the words, " Defender of the Faith".
     
    Through communal Sensus Fidelium, we sense the need to honor a true Minister to Our Lord's cause, one who has called to raise his Shield of Defense against inner and outer forces, his Excellency, Archbishop Marcel LeFebvre. We the Common Priesthood of the Faithful*, and in the current ecumenical spirit of reconciliation hereby submit to His Holiness our desire to have a commemorative stamp made and a mass said for the repose of his soul.

    The title should read the deserving "Defender of the Faith".  

    *Ref: Vatican Paper, "Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration Of The Non-Ordained Faithful In The
    Sacred Ministry Of Priest"
    Thanks all for opinions.  :)
    Do you think it's a good idea ?


     

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