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Author Topic: Catholics Cannot Circuмcise without the Loss of Eternal Salvation  (Read 1767 times)

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Offline happenby

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Circuмcision today is wrong and Catholics should not participate in this rite.  It belongs to the old covenant and as such, is no longer in effect.  People who circuмcise their boys should be aware that the Council of Florence forbids it, even if one puts no faith in it.  

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]"It firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time observe circuмcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors. Therefore, it commands all who glory in the name of Christian, at whatever time, before or after baptism, to cease entirely from circuмcision, since, whether or not one places hope in it, it cannot be observed at all without the loss of eternal salvation."  Council of Florence[/color]

And St. Paul warns that those who observe circuмcision will have no profit in Christ. "Behold, I Paul tell you, that if you be circuмcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."  Galatians 5:2 


The modern nature of circuмcision, unlike the much less invasive form the Hebrews had to practice,  is down right barbaric.  A small tip is not removed, which is bad enough, but they slice and flay leaving a huge and extremely painful wound.  

Warn fellow Catholics, this kind of action on the body is not ok.  It has nothing to do with the Catholic religion or being like Christ.  It does not belong to the parents to mutilate their children.  



Offline Mithrandylan

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Re: Catholics Cannot Circuмcise without the Loss of Eternal Salvation
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2017, 03:48:26 PM »
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  • Circuмcision is utterly unnecessary at its absolute best, but the circuмcision performed by medical professionals is not that of the Old Covenant. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Catholics Cannot Circuмcise without the Loss of Eternal Salvation
    « Reply #2 on: July 06, 2017, 08:07:13 PM »
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  • True, circuмcision is utterly unnecessary, and the modern version isn't supposed to be that of the Old Covenant per se.  But because of the influence of the Freemasonic Jєωs, it remains.  St. Paul forbade it.  The Council of Florence forbade it.  So why do Catholics continue to mutilate their babies?
    I'm sure because the medical community, particularly in past decades, regarded it as necessary for cleanliness and recommended it. Since then, the trend has changed and they've "learned" that there's really no benefit.
    .
    But just to be clear, medical circuмcision is a very, very different thing from the Old Covenant circuмcision. It's not like they're "technically" different-- they're substantially different, and on several levels.
    .
    First, one is a religious ceremony and the other a medical procedure. On those grounds alone they're not the same thing, anymore than baking unleavened bread is the same as a Seder meal. And next, medical circuмcision is a removal of the foreskin entirely (far more barbaric and mutilative), whereas the Old Covenant only removed a very small amount so that the biological design of the male would still be facilitative to the regenerative act (being purposefully vague here, people can look in the details if they want). So they're not even the same procedure, no more than piercing ones ear is the same as cutting it off.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Catholics Cannot Circuмcise without the Loss of Eternal Salvation
    « Reply #3 on: July 07, 2017, 11:53:36 AM »
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  • Indeed, the modern version is truly vicious a very expanded version of what was. God never requested circuмcision like they do today.  But without the ritual background, the history, there is no circuмcision at all.  Its roots are religious only.  Just because they call it a "medical procedure" doesn't mean it is a "medical" procedure.  Circuмcision has no medical purpose whatsoever.  For that reason, intent behind its resurrection (sic) becomes obvious. Circuмcision is a ritualistic, religious practice foisted on us more barbaric than imaginable, and as such, it is an emblem of the power and intent of the Occult Jєωs. Why else would huge percentages of baby boys be circuмcised if it wasn't religious?
    .
    Of course it has religious roots, no argument there.  But at a certain point, the intent behind some action along with the accompanying rituals (or lacktherof) attached to the action make it no longer religious, or at least certainly on a predictable basis make it so emptied of religious content that it is not religious. 
    .
    There are loads and loads of things today that had an initial religious "root" in some way or another that are quite obviously, as usually used, not religious.  Fish fries on Friday in 2017 have virtually nothing at all to do with businesses catering to Catholics who were following Church law; most Catholics today who eat fish on a Friday don't even know they're supposed to be abstaining from meat, so how on earth can we say that if they go to a fish fry they're observing a religious law?  Unleavened bread has its origin at the passover, but you can make unleavened bread without celebrating a Jєωιѕн feast.  So on and so forth.  The Old Covenant rite of circuмcision was a religious ceremony that involved the removal of a small amount of the male child's foreskin.  If you remove the religious ceremony from the event, you're not left with a religious ceremony.  Even if medical circuмcision was the same materially as the Old Covenant form of circuмcision (which it isn't, but supposing it was), medical circuмcision would still be a medical procedure, not a religious ceremony.
    .
    I find it somewhat difficult to buy the idea that Occult Jєωs are behind the medical push for circuмcision, for two main reasons.  First, they don't want the goy, so why on earth would they orchestrate efforts to incorporate him into the Jєωιѕн community?  And secondly, the trend of circuмcision is dying and was, so far as I can tell, relatively short-lived.  Can we name a Jєωιѕн conspiracy that the Jєωs have abandoned as they've apparently abandoned the circuмcision conspiracy (as evidenced by its significant drop in popularity and the virtual wholesale admittance of the medical community that it provides no health advantages)? 
    .
    It's highly objectionable and we agree on that-- and it's definitely something about which the word needs to be spread.  Parents should not be (medically) circuмcising their boys; if anything, the procedure physically disadvantages them and wounds their generative faculties.  I would agree that it is a form of mutilation, and a very sad one at that given the helplessness of the child. I am disagreeing simply with some of the reasons you are putting forth. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Binechi

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    Re: Catholics Cannot Circuмcise without the Loss of Eternal Salvation
    « Reply #4 on: July 07, 2017, 12:02:00 PM »
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  • What does your Traditional Priest say on this ?


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Catholics Cannot Circuмcise without the Loss of Eternal Salvation
    « Reply #5 on: July 07, 2017, 12:07:18 PM »
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  • What does your Traditional Priest say on this ?
    I haven't asked.  I attend a resistance friendly, independent parish and have only recently engaged the priests about various subjects.  Just not this one.  With the Council of Florence weighing in, the subject is not open to a contrary opinion.  I'm hopeful once I've talked to the priests, they'll carry this message along to Catholics because it affects so many people.  

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Catholics Cannot Circuмcise without the Loss of Eternal Salvation
    « Reply #6 on: July 07, 2017, 01:26:26 PM »
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  • All you have to do is trace it back.  Circuмcision was foisted on us in the last 100-150 or so years ago under the guise that it was cleaner, better, safer than leaving things alone.  That is a lie.  The first clue.  But even more ominous is the fact that the Council of Florence forbade it.  Whether or not one put faith in it or not.  Florence makes it clear: unless one recovers (repents) he cannot save his soul, specifically with regard to this matter! A Catholic Council forbade it. Another clue.  Defiance of the Church.  St. Paul forbade it as well, so circuмcision defies the Word of God. Then there's the money trail, debatably not strictly Jєωιѕн, but easily manipulated for profit by 'Jєωs' and like-minded in the industry.  With zero reason to circuмcise medically speaking, or religiously speaking, there is no doubt that this is a cabal, intended to mock God, enrich those who practice and promote it, and to cost people their souls.    
    .
    Well, I think you've already decided its a Jєωιѕн conspiracy and are simply interpreting the history in a way that confirms that.  Also, most of what you have to say here depends on medical circuмcision being one and the same with the Old Covenant religious circuмcision, and that is simply false as evidenced above.  They are substantially different. 
    .
    I'll point out again that it is in the interest of no Jєω to incorporate us into their covenant and is quite oppositely against their interests, which are inordinately tribal and exclusive. And even if it were in their interest to do so, now you must explain how an industry that is absolutely teeming with Jєωs (the medical industry) is now telling everyone that they don't need to get circuмcised.  If it were a Jєωιѕн conspiracy then it would not be a difficult one to maintain at this point, yet it is Jєωs themselves who are instrumentally responsible for medical circuмcision falling out of favor with the general population.  So if anything, the role of Jєωιѕн conspiracy in the equation seems to be against, rather than in favor of medical circuмcision foisted on the general public.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Catholics Cannot Circuмcise without the Loss of Eternal Salvation
    « Reply #7 on: July 07, 2017, 04:27:35 PM »
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  • I am distinguishing because the two are distinct.  
    .
    Florence doesn't anathematize what we're talking about, it's anathematizing the religious observance of circuмcision by Catholics.  Medical circuмcision, so far as I'm aware, wasn't even a thing then.  There was circuмcision full stop: as religious Jєωιѕн observance.  Some parent in 1988 who trusts their doctor that circuмcision is a good thing and lets an Episcopalian nurse circuмcise their boy in the nursery isn't the object of the warning.  If they've sinned in having their child circuмcised (notice I say if because I don't think it follows necessarily that they have) then it's along the lines of negligence, i.e., of making a decision that is detrimental to the child due to not having sufficiently investigated the decision.  But even that charge is difficult to stick carte blanche because appealing to a medical professional as a legitimate authority is not unreasonable.  We might point out that the medical profession has become corrupt, and we would be right in saying that caution is necessary, but we should hesitate to fault people who trust authority, particularly at a time when information was not disseminated as easily as it is in the Internet age.  Fundamentally, that (reliance on authority) is a good intuition and one for which Catholics have not traditionally been rebuked.  If one already knows better then of course it's a different matter, but if one simply places their trust in a professional because they realize their own limitations in assessing some situation or another, blame is difficult to assign.
    .
    Now, I've given you two reasons for the distinction between these two types of circuмcision.  First, in the one instance you have a religious ceremony, and in the other instance you don't.  That alone should render the distinction clear in anyone's mind.  It isn't a question about which is "better" or which is "worse," rather it's simply a question of whether or not they're the same thing.  If they're the same thing, then everything about the one can necessarily be said about the other.  If they're not the same thing, than whatever can be said about one is not necessarily true about the other.  
    .
    The second reason is that the effect is similar but still very different.  The physical effect of religious circuмcision is marginal; there is some loss of blood and skin, but nothing about the male genitalia is so disturbed as to render its function any more or less capable.  This is not true of medical circuмcision, as the removal of the entire foreskin actually renders the genitalia not as facilitative of the generative act.  So there's another substantial difference between the two.
    .
    What you're seeing are two remotely similar effects and then conflating those effects to establish a shared identity between the two acts.  But the effect of the two circuмcisions is actually quite different, about as different from piercing your ear and cutting it off.  You'll be able to hear either way, supposing that the cutting off of the ear leaves intact the hearing faculties (you don't hear through the actual cartilage, skin, and bone), but each act produces a nevertheless very different result to the body, and likewise is facilitated in a very different way, just as these two types of circuмcision are.  It's like you're just seeing two people touching their ears with sharp things and concluding on that fact that they are performing the same act, despite the one is poking a tiny needle through a small part of the ear lobe for the purposes of ornamentation and the other is using a Bowie knife to carve away the entire ear presumably owing to insanity.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Catholics Cannot Circuмcise without the Loss of Eternal Salvation
    « Reply #8 on: July 07, 2017, 10:44:17 PM »
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  • I've read it. I stand by what I said, because it doesn't seem at all possible that Florence is condemning a substantially distinct practice that was developed about five hundred years later by an American Protestant. Find an approved writer (theolgian, doctor, saint, pope, etc.) who supports your interpretation against the odds.  Just one.
    .
    I've gone to considerable length to show that medical circuмcision (i.e., the complete removal of the foreskin bereft of any religious ceremony) is substantially different from the old covenant practice. If you have an actual response to my objections I'd love to hear it. So far you've just denied but not rebutted.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Catholics Cannot Circuмcise without the Loss of Eternal Salvation
    « Reply #9 on: July 07, 2017, 10:56:05 PM »
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  • Mithrandylan has given the Catholic viewpoint on this issue.

    Happenby's "dogmatic" stance on it is a private interpretation of Tradition (in this case, the Council of Florence). And her private interpretation of Tradition is no better or more accurate than your average Protestant's ham-fisted attempts to privately interpret Scripture. Both are wrong.

    We must follow the teaching of the Church.

    Everything Mithrandylan said is correct. He seems to have all the nuances of the argument covered, so I needn't repeat him or elaborate.

    Mithrandylan made a good point though -- there is no way medical circuмcision is a Freemasonic/Jєωιѕн conspiracy. If it were, they wouldn't have dropped it! Because just like breastfeeding, mothers co-sleeping with babies, and eating healthy food has made a comeback, so has "anti-circuмcision" of late. And the Jєωs consider themselves the only real humans (i.e., the only rational creatures with an immortal soul, created in God's image). They consider non-Jєωs to be goyim, which literally means cattle. Why would they want their cattle to resemble themselves and share in their dignity? They wouldn't.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Catholics Cannot Circuмcise without the Loss of Eternal Salvation
    « Reply #10 on: July 07, 2017, 11:00:04 PM »
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  • Ok I'm the Moderator and I'm moderating this thread.

    This thread is closed.

    I leave you with a quote from infallible Sacred Scripture:

    Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith."  But if they would learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church.
    [1 Corinthians 14:34]

    Most women aren't well equipped to preach or be teachers of men. That is not the role for which God designed them.

    God didn't choose men to be priests, bishops, etc. by accident.
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