Author Topic: Catholic Morality on Marijuana (Read 8109 times)

Ladislaus · « **on:** October 27, 2015, 09:30:05 AM »

I have generally been opposed in principle to marijuana use. And the moral principle doesn't derive from Puritanical / Prot neocon sensitivities but from the understanding that marijuana always impairs the higher faculties. But someone I know who has used marijuana asserts that the effect isn't necessarily different than that of alcohol (depending on the individual, the amount, the type, etc.). We know that alcohol is permitted so long as the higher faculties are not compromised. Sacred Scripture even states that "wine brings joy to man's heart".

I ask because in Ohio there's a ballot measure to legalize marijuana and I'm trying to determine which way I should vote on this as a Catholic. I've long been against the criminalization of marijuana ... largely for pragmatic reasons. We pay too much in tax money to incarcerate every petty pot user. If one wants to deter its use, just give people fines, like speeding tickets. Just as speeding tickets can deter speeding, so can fines on marijuana possession deter its use.

But the Ohio ballot measure actually entails the state being actively involved in the growing, sales, distribution of marijuana and so I wouldn't be able to vote for the measure if marijuana use is intrinsically sinful.

So does marijuana always entail a sinful compromise of the higher faculties that would be experienced in the kind of heavy drinking that would render the latter sinful? Does this vary by individual (as it might in drinking)? In other words, is marijuana use inherently sinful or not inherently sinful? I would be completely against the criminalization of alcohol (in fact nothing less than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass uses alcoholic drink). Are there any morally relevant principles involved in marijuana use that would make it different than the consumption of alcohol?

I know that the knee-jerk reaction of many would be an unthinking, "Are you kidding?" But that's due to the conditioning we've receive from a society dominated by Prot/Puritanical sensibilities. I want to consider the question objectively and from the standpoint of Catholic moral principles only.

roscoe, would you care to chime in?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #1 on:** October 27, 2015, 09:37:38 AM »

This is from a Novus Ordo survey of the subject:

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/to-puff-or-not-to-puff/

Quote

Is Moderate Use Acceptable?

Pot advocates may argue their intention is to relax at home after work, not to get high. If pot is akin to alcohol and can be used temperately, is it morally acceptable?

De Solenni said, no, it cannot be used moderately.

“Once you’ve gone beyond the buzz, you actually lose control over your rational functions — it’s wrong. It goes against our nature and who we’re supposed to be.”

Brugger said it may be.

“I think, ordinarily, if it’s not a near occasion of sin for you, if you’re not inclined to alcoholism, having a beer when you come home from work is not a bad thing. It can be good thing,” he said. “(Likewise), if one kept pot in strict moderation, it seems to me, it need not always be immoral. But there are other things bearing upon the question.”

Even the first person cited here makes the caveat "Once you've gone beyond the buzz...". Does everyone always necessarily go "beyond the buzz" into the point of losing control over the rational faculties?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #2 on:** October 27, 2015, 10:00:36 AM »

Zuhlsdorf's answer borders on the idiotic. He never answer the chief argument, an analogy between alcohol and marijuana. Instead, he keeps making puerile cracks about twinkies, chips, and fudge brownies. Moronic.

Quote

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2015/02/ask-father-can-i-smoke-marijuana/

Ladislaus · « **Reply #3 on:** October 27, 2015, 10:13:03 AM »

Someone responded to "Z" with a post from Jone:

Quote

Since morpine, opium, chloroform and similar drugs can also deprive one of the use of his reason temporarily, that which was said of intoxicating drinks holds true also for narcotics (Cf. 165, 4).

a) To use narcotics in small quantities and only occasionally, is a venial sin if done without a sufficient reason. Any proportionately good reason justifies their use, e.g., to calm the nerves, dispel insomnia, etc.

Such use becomes gravely sinful if it creates an habitual craving for “dope” which is more difficult to overcome than dipsomania and more injurious to health.

Jone/Adelman, “Moral Theology,” p. 110.

I would think that which applies to narcotics would also apply to marijuana, since narcotics in general are more dangerous, addictive, etc.

It sounds to me that, just as with alcohol, there's no intrinsic evil here. Sounds like it involves weighing a number of considerations ... just as with alcohol. Proportionately good reasons seem to be able to justify it use. So it becomes a question of weighing in on the proportionality between the two. So, for instance, the use of a higher amount of morphine would be justified, for instance, if someone were in extreme pain. And, here, Jone states that the use of a small amount (and occasionally) might be justified by a lower threshold of proportionate good (calming the nerves). Now if in having even a small amount to drink I know that I will become violent or lose moral inhibition, then it would be forbidden for me to drink even a small amount (due to the potential outcome). But someone else could easily drink a small amount without any harmful effects whatsoever.

Of course, the other consideration is that it's wrong to violate a just law. But I'm talking now of a situation where Ohio will be VOTING on the law itself.

PS -- I have never used marijuana and don't intend to. Nor could I. In my case, they do random drug testing at work and I would be fired immediately if it were detected in my system. Consequently, it would for that reason alone be sinful for me to use it.

Can anyone refute this?

Stubborn · « **Reply #4 on:** October 27, 2015, 10:16:04 AM »

SSPX article; Is smoking marijuana a sin?

Personally, I think it's perfectly acceptable and even something that could be very useful for medicinal use, but not recreational use - especially these days that the weed has been bred to be very potent.

I am not even sure - - - should it even be compared to alcoholic beverages? True both make ones head spin, but isn't that where the similarities end?

Seems like there's too many people without brains or at least lacking common sense these days, all recreational MJ will do is add to the overall stupidity of the population imo.

TKGS · « **Reply #5 on:** October 27, 2015, 10:28:29 AM »

Alcohol can be beneficial to the health used, of course, in moderation. It can do more than simply deaden pain or create a "buzz". It is also consumed without any sin when "drinking" is not the primary purpose (i.e., going to a bar to party) and having drinks with others, i.e., socializing, even at a bar, need not involve sin. Alcohol also does have the aspect of being a form of food.

What are the health benefits of marijuana? Some reports say that it can ease the discomfort and pain of certain specific maladies. If this is really accurate (and not an excuse, I haven't been able to truly ascertain the truth of the matter) then marijuana use can certainly be medicinal. Of course, that is not what the ballot measure contemplates so we have to continue.

The sole purpose of smoking marijuana is to "get high". In my experience, individuals who smoke marijuana are immediately and noticeably affected. There is no simple "buzz" that one might experience with the moderate drinking of alcohol. Judgment and motor faculties are immediately affected though the effects are small with little exposure and become greater with additional exposure. Also, in my experience, the claims that marijuana is a "gateway drug" that necessarily leads to "more dangerous" drugs is fallacious. People who use the more dangerous drugs do so because they are disposed to do so, not because they smoked marijuana.

Furthermore, I haven't figured out what the health benefits of breathing smoke into the lungs can provide. I don't understand why the political left wages a war against tobacco and even anything the just looks like you might be smoking (i.e., "e-cigarettes", depictions of smoking on movies and television, and--remember those candy cigarettes where the end was colored red so kids could pretend to be smoking?) yet advocates the complete legalization of inhaling marijuana smoke into the lungs.

Bottom line: Alcohol can be physically beneficial and not be a spiritual evil. Of course, like ingesting too much of anything, it can be harmful just as eating too much can be harmful. Marijuana is not physically beneficial, or at least I haven't seen any evidence that it is, and is usually, if not always, spiritually evil.

I will note that others will probably disagree with me on the "buzz" factor, but I am only relating my personal experiences in the matter. People often tell me that I am wrong on that matter, but, then again, those individuals usually talk and act like Cheech and Chong. (On a side note, I saw Richard "Cheech" Marin on a celebrity Jeopardy tournament. He is an incredibly intelligent man. The way he acts in his comedy routine is how I am describing the people who usually disagree with me on the "buzz" factor.)

I also agree that criminal sanctions against the possession of marijuana have done more harm to society than the marijuana itself. My question is why hasn't the I.R.S. been able to crush the drug cartels through the income tax laws?

TKGS · « **Reply #6 on:** October 27, 2015, 10:40:44 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

PS -- I have never used marijuana and don't intend to. Nor could I. In my case, they do random drug testing at work and I would be fired immediately if it were detected in my system. Consequently, it would for that reason alone be sinful for me to use it.

I read a news item a while back that such employment restrictions have been challenge in either Washington or Colorado (I don't remember which one) as illegal because the use of marijuana is completely legal in those States and employers can't fire an employee for legal activities that don't effect his work performance. I haven't heard any update on the status of the case (or cases) but it is interesting to note that such random drug tests are being challenged more and more.

I was in Spokane in October and was rather surprised to see a store selling marijuana next to the gas station. It was completely out in the open. There was a large sign indicating that you had to be 21 years old to enter. I didn't check it out.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #7 on:** October 27, 2015, 10:44:03 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

SSPX article; Is smoking marijuana a sin?

Personally, I think it's perfectly acceptable and even something that could be very useful for medicinal use, but not recreational use - especially these days that the weed has been bred to be very potent.

I am not even sure - - - should it even be compared to alcoholic beverages? True both make ones head spin, but isn't that where the similarities end?

Seems like there's too many people without brains or at least lacking common sense these days, all recreational MJ will do is add to the overall stupidity of the population imo.

Well, the only problem with this entire article is that it all rests on a single presumption:

Quote

The consumption of illegal drugs, even those called soft drugs, is comparable not to becoming tipsy on a little wine but to perfect drunkennes.

This was the whole question of my post. Is this true? I had always thought this but others (who have actually TRIED the substance in the past) dispute this. They claim that there can be a milder effect such as what one experiences in getting a little tipsy from drinking. And the SSPX article and others keep saying that getting tipsy on alcohol is always a venial sin. I don't believe that to be true AT ALL. As Jone points out, any proportionate reasons can justify this. And I include being able to have a little entertainment, to be able to ease a little the troubles of one's life, to fight stress and/or depression, if those things come from getting a little tipsy on alcohol, then IMO it's no sin at all. As Sacred Scripture states, "wine brings joy to the heart of man". Now, habitual chronic use of the stuff (whether alcohol or marijuana) is a different matter altogether. But someone who has a few beers during the weekend to unwind and get away from the pressures of life or, conversely, smokes pot a few times a month ... just to relax, destress, etc. I know people who are filled with stress and depression, etc. ... and alcohol helps them relax.

So the question is whether Father Scott's allegation is true:

Quote from: Father Scott

The consumption of illegal drugs, even those called soft drugs, is comparable not to becoming tipsy on a little wine but to perfect drunkennes.

This is really the crux of the issue. Is this true?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #8 on:** October 27, 2015, 10:48:11 AM »

Quote from: TKGS

Quote from: Ladislaus
PS -- I have never used marijuana and don't intend to. Nor could I. In my case, they do random drug testing at work and I would be fired immediately if it were detected in my system. Consequently, it would for that reason alone be sinful for me to use it.

I read a news item a while back that such employment restrictions have been challenge in either Washington or Colorado (I don't remember which one) as illegal because the use of marijuana is completely legal in those States and employers can't fire an employee for legal activities that don't effect his work performance. I haven't heard any update on the status of the case (or cases) but it is interesting to note that such random drug tests are being challenged more and more.

Yeah, how that plays out legally will be interesting. Most workplaces can prohibit "impairment" of any kind while on duty. And the standards are even higher for professions that involve safety concerns. In those environments, the presence of even traces of the stuff in the blood, whether or not there's any impairment on the job, was grounds for dismissal. It's never been about the legality per se. That isn't why companies test for and fire people for the drug. It's due to potential risk for impairment at work.

LucasL · « **Reply #9 on:** October 27, 2015, 10:58:47 AM »

Smoking for medical reasons: liberal mistake

What is used for health issues is one of the components of marijuaan which does not cause "high" . Many people seek to use its for "medical reasons" because they want to get high and when the scientists could determine that the substance in the plant could be used for health issues but you wouldn't get "high" the liberals went full-retard and started to blame the western society for all the evil in the world

Marijuana is a drug of choice of Charles Manson, LaVey and all kinds of freaks. It's one of the worst drugs out there because people treat it like a religion and the plant a deity The other drugs people get very sick fast so they don't dare to call "cocaine" a religion or if they do, they usually are in the deathbed. That's not the case with this marijuana ..

I have a very strict policy since I was 14 years old: no one that smokes or smoked recently marijuana enters in my house. Period. Only the Have-Nots use this garbage.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/2/billionaire-george-soros-turns-cash-into-legalized/?page=all

Ladislaus · « **Reply #10 on:** October 27, 2015, 11:06:47 AM »

Quote from: TKGS

What are the health benefits of marijuana? Some reports say that it can ease the discomfort and pain of certain specific maladies. If this is really accurate (and not an excuse, I haven't been able to truly ascertain the truth of the matter) then marijuana use can certainly be medicinal. Of course, that is not what the ballot measure contemplates so we have to continue.

But I think that the benefits don't necessarily have to be physical health benefits. So, for instance, if someone's so stressed out in life as to be depressed, anxious, on the point of having a nervous breakdown ... or even just stressed to a lesser extent, there can be a proportionately good reason to justify its use. As Jone pointed out, it's a balance of proportionality; the greater the degree of impairment, the greater the degree of proportional good would be required. He cites "calming the nerves" as a proportionate reason to justify the occasional use of small amounts of narcotics.

Quote from: TKGS

In my experience, individuals who smoke marijuana are immediately and noticeably affected. There is no simple "buzz" that one might experience with the moderate drinking of alcohol. Judgment and motor faculties are immediately affected though the effects are small with little exposure and become greater with additional exposure.

I can see that the effects would be more immediate, but's due to the fact that it enters the blood stream quicker. But if someone takes two or three puffs, for instance, does that right there and then make one higher than a kite and unable to reason? I don't know. Is it just a question of more of the active ingredient being delivered more quickly to the system?

Quote from: TKGS

Bottom line: Alcohol can be physically beneficial and not be a spiritual evil. Of course, like ingesting too much of anything, it can be harmful just as eating too much can be harmful. Marijuana is not physically beneficial, or at least I haven't seen any evidence that it is, and is usually, if not always, spiritually evil.

I would only say that something could beneficial just from the standpoint of relieving nerves and anxiety (people takes stuff like Xanax for the same reason). Jone cited "calming the nerves" as a proportionate reason to take small amounts of narcotics.

Stubborn · « **Reply #11 on:** October 27, 2015, 11:22:02 AM »

For me, I would vote against it regardless whether or not it is comparable to a little wine at diner. If for no other reason, to vote for it is to contribute to the further delinquency of the population.

Growing up in the 60s, MJ was everywhere, I mean it was literally everywhere and it was an important ingredient of the revolution. Regardless of inconclusive "scientific studies", that weed with it's mind numbing capabilities only added to the loss of everything holy. What good can come of it today as something "adults" partake of for recreation?

roscoe · « **Reply #12 on:** October 27, 2015, 12:08:15 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

I have generally been opposed in principle to marijuana use. And the moral principle doesn't derive from Puritanical / Prot neocon sensitivities but from the understanding that marijuana always impairs the higher faculties. But someone I know who has used marijuana asserts that the effect isn't necessarily different than that of alcohol (depending on the individual, the amount, the type, etc.). We know that alcohol is permitted so long as the higher faculties are not compromised. Sacred Scripture even states that "wine brings joy to man's heart".

I ask because in Ohio there's a ballot measure to legalize marijuana and I'm trying to determine which way I should vote on this as a Catholic. I've long been against the criminalization of marijuana ... largely for pragmatic reasons. We pay too much in tax money to incarcerate every petty pot user. If one wants to deter its use, just give people fines, like speeding tickets. Just as speeding tickets can deter speeding, so can fines on marijuana possession deter its use.

But the Ohio ballot measure actually entails the state being actively involved in the growing, sales, distribution of marijuana and so I wouldn't be able to vote for the measure if marijuana use is intrinsically sinful.

So does marijuana always entail a sinful compromise of the higher faculties that would be experienced in the kind of heavy drinking that would render the latter sinful? Does this vary by individual (as it might in drinking)? In other words, is marijuana use inherently sinful or not inherently sinful? I would be completely against the criminalization of alcohol (in fact nothing less than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass uses alcoholic drink). Are there any morally relevant principles involved in marijuana use that would make it different than the consumption of alcohol?

I know that the knee-jerk reaction of many would be an unthinking, "Are you kidding?" But that's due to the conditioning we've receive from a society dominated by Prot/Puritanical sensibilities. I want to consider the question objectively and from the standpoint of Catholic moral principles only.

roscoe, would you care to chime in?

I'll try and respond to this topic b4 the day is over.... :boxer:

MaterDominici · « **Reply #13 on:** October 27, 2015, 12:41:04 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

especially these days that the weed has been bred to be very potent.

I haven't read all of the previous responses yet, but it is important to know that not all marijuana is the same and it effects vary quite a bit depending on the variety.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #14 on:** October 27, 2015, 12:53:00 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

For me, I would vote against it regardless whether or not it is comparable to a little wine at diner. If for no other reason, to vote for it is to contribute to the further delinquency of the population.

Well, the delinquents will use marijuana whether it's legal or not. It's the same thing as with gun control. Only law-abiding citizens who wouldn't use guns for nefarious purposes are inclined to abide by the laws in the first place.