Author Topic: I figured out the crux of the College question (Read 1501 times)

Matthew · « **on:** August 07, 2013, 05:03:20 PM »

There has been a debate about the advisability of sending young men to secular colleges.

Well, here is one point that needs to be made.

Sins against the First Commandment are graver than sins against the Sixth and Ninth.

However, are all temptations to be dealt with in the same manner?

No.

The spiritual authors teach us that the Sixth and Ninth Commandments, and the temptations against them, are in their own special category. Temptations against holy purity are to be dealt with by FLIGHT -- running away; avoiding the temptation.

However, this doesn't hold for all the other sins. We must not "fly" all temptations in the same manner. Some can be faced.

It is OK to expose yourself to remote or necessary occasions of OTHERS sins (other than impurity), as long as you're not in danger of falling. For example, being around non-Catholics or being around alcohol, or being around meat on Good Friday. If one has sufficient virtue, you can trust yourself if you have no history of "falling".

Now an alcoholic might not want to be around alcohol, and that would be prudent. But must every man treat himself like a past alcoholic? That would be unreasonable.

The confusion lies in the fact that when it comes to sins against purity/chastity, you're not allowed to "trust yourself", by being in company with the opposite sex alone, for example.

Filthy advertisements tempt everyone, or at least fill your mind with impure thoughts. But does a flyer for Mormonism similarly tempt everyone? It certainly doesn't tempt me! Maybe when I was 12 I would have been confused by the rhetoric, but now that I know my faith, it doesn't tempt me and I can be around Mormon rhetoric all day.

Graham · « **Reply #1 on:** August 07, 2013, 05:46:32 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

as long as you're not in danger of falling

Lol, I like how you that tucked away, the tiny little qualification that knocks the legs from under your whole post. Your opponents' central point is that young men and women are in danger of falling.

Matthew · « **Reply #2 on:** August 07, 2013, 06:06:04 PM »

Quote from: Graham

Quote from: Matthew
as long as you're not in danger of falling

Lol, I like how you that tucked away, the tiny little qualification that knocks the legs from under your whole post. Your opponents' central point is that young men and women are in danger of falling.

Ok, Mr. Intellectual, let's debate the essence of the difference between a hypothetical 18 year old man facing college, and ME facing college.

Why am I not in danger, but the 18 year old is?

Is it knowledge of the Faith? Is it age? Should children be considered full-grown at 35 rather than 18?

Let's discuss the essence and ideas here.

Frances · « **Reply #3 on:** August 07, 2013, 06:13:09 PM »

:applause:
True of life, not just college. Some CAN handle it, others can't. The sex, drugs, and rock and roll of my generation didn't tempt me BEFORE college; it didn't interest me during college, either. I grew up pretty much surrounded by people with moral and spiritual standards different from those in my home, so by the time I reached the teen years, I'd already formed a conscience against most of those typical temptations. I was NOT a "typical" teen who rebelled or looked to peers for self-esteem. Peer-pressure was never much of an issue for me. I've never really understood it. As Bp. W. told me, I should consider it a special grace not given to most. God no doubt knew that I'd be a disaster on my own.
Others cannot withstand the temptation. I've a relative raised in the same kind of environment who went off the deep end upon leaving the parental nest. He flunked out of college due to a frenzied and immoral social life. Intelligence had nothing to do with it. He's very bright, but chose to spend his time partying and womanizing instead of going to class. For him, the cure was going into the army. When the choice was between getting his act together or doing time at Leavenworth, he got his act together. The problem now is that colleges DON'T kick people out for failing. The draft is gone, as well. For as long as you pay, colleges will keep you until you're dead. "Ever learning and never coming to knowledge of the truth..."
Bp. W. gives general guidelines, but these have to be made to suit the individual. Bp. W.'s teaching on college and other issues is not dogma. The problem starts when people take it as such.

Graham · « **Reply #4 on:** August 07, 2013, 06:21:52 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: Graham
Quote from: Matthew
as long as you're not in danger of falling

Lol, I like how you that tucked away, the tiny little qualification that knocks the legs from under your whole post. Your opponents' central point is that young men and women are in danger of falling.

Ok, Mr. Intellectual, let's debate the essence of the difference between a hypothetical 18 year old man facing college, and ME facing college.

Why am I not in danger, but the 18 year old is?

Is it knowledge of the Faith? Is it age? Should children be considered full-grown at 35 rather than 18?

Let's discuss the essence and ideas here.

Who says you wouldn't be in danger? I don't think you're immune from influences in your surroundings.

18 year olds are naive, and their minds are more malleable.

s2srea · « **Reply #5 on:** August 07, 2013, 06:28:38 PM »

Quote from: Graham

Quote from: Matthew
Quote from: Graham
Quote from: Matthew
as long as you're not in danger of falling

Lol, I like how you that tucked away, the tiny little qualification that knocks the legs from under your whole post. Your opponents' central point is that young men and women are in danger of falling.

Ok, Mr. Intellectual, let's debate the essence of the difference between a hypothetical 18 year old man facing college, and ME facing college.

Why am I not in danger, but the 18 year old is?

Is it knowledge of the Faith? Is it age? Should children be considered full-grown at 35 rather than 18?

Let's discuss the essence and ideas here.

Who says you wouldn't be in danger? I don't think you're immune from influences in your surroundings.

18 year olds are naive, and their minds are more malleable.

Are you serious?? You people (Graham, Tele) are incapable of honest discussion.

Tiffany · « **Reply #6 on:** August 07, 2013, 06:35:06 PM »

Quote from: Graham

Quote from: Matthew
Quote from: Graham
Quote from: Matthew
as long as you're not in danger of falling

Lol, I like how you that tucked away, the tiny little qualification that knocks the legs from under your whole post. Your opponents' central point is that young men and women are in danger of falling.

Ok, Mr. Intellectual, let's debate the essence of the difference between a hypothetical 18 year old man facing college, and ME facing college.

Why am I not in danger, but the 18 year old is?

Is it knowledge of the Faith? Is it age? Should children be considered full-grown at 35 rather than 18?

Let's discuss the essence and ideas here.

Who says you wouldn't be in danger? I don't think you're immune from influences in your surroundings.

18 year olds are naive, and their minds are more malleable.

Matthew you have a family including a wife and 20 more years of life experience. Seriously it is like those who mock the advice for men who need to travel to try to bring their wives years or or dating couples to not be alone. Men should be the most aware aware, I don't get it.

Graham · « **Reply #7 on:** August 07, 2013, 06:38:12 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: Graham
Quote from: Matthew
Quote from: Graham
Quote from: Matthew
as long as you're not in danger of falling

Lol, I like how you that tucked away, the tiny little qualification that knocks the legs from under your whole post. Your opponents' central point is that young men and women are in danger of falling.

Ok, Mr. Intellectual, let's debate the essence of the difference between a hypothetical 18 year old man facing college, and ME facing college.

Why am I not in danger, but the 18 year old is?

Is it knowledge of the Faith? Is it age? Should children be considered full-grown at 35 rather than 18?

Let's discuss the essence and ideas here.

Who says you wouldn't be in danger? I don't think you're immune from influences in your surroundings.

18 year olds are naive, and their minds are more malleable.

Are you serious?? You people (Graham, Tele) are incapable of honest discussion.

Stop it, Richard.

I have absolutely no idea why you're talking to me so rudely, but I won't brook it.

I answered Matthew's question. Where is the dishonesty? Young men are more malleable than older men. Do you disagree?

Matto · « **Reply #8 on:** August 07, 2013, 06:49:13 PM »

I know I wasn't ready to face college when I went there when I was 18, though I wasn't a traditional Catholic then. I committed many sins and I also believed a lot of the lies my teachers told me about the world, though I did recover and find traditional Catholicism a few years later, still I have a few horrible years to remember with shame because I went to a secular university. I don't know how I would have fared if I was brought up right as a Catholic before I faced college, but the temptations I faced were very strong both inside and outside of the classroom. If I could relive my life I would never go to college and learn a trade instead.

Frances · « **Reply #9 on:** August 07, 2013, 07:21:28 PM »

:dancing:

:cheers: :scratchchin: :reading:
My life has been so far beyond the "normal" path that I know God planned it. So I do not regret having gone to college. I DO regret sins I committed, but I can honestly say that college was not to blame. In fact, the worst of my mortal sins ( confessed and forgiven) I committed before college, and then after, as an adult. Matto- Unless you're 105 and senile, you probably could still learn a trade. Maybe it's too late to change your main occupation, but it is always good to have one or more sidelines in case of need. I supplement my teacher's pay by doing sewing repairs, calligraphy, housecleaning, proof-reading, etc. No sense in crying over spilt milk! Remember that God works ALL things for good for us. He redeems even our sins.
Frances, the :dancing-banana:!

Kephapaulos · « **Reply #10 on:** August 07, 2013, 10:41:19 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: Graham
Quote from: Matthew
Quote from: Graham
Quote from: Matthew
as long as you're not in danger of falling

Lol, I like how you that tucked away, the tiny little qualification that knocks the legs from under your whole post. Your opponents' central point is that young men and women are in danger of falling.

Ok, Mr. Intellectual, let's debate the essence of the difference between a hypothetical 18 year old man facing college, and ME facing college.

Why am I not in danger, but the 18 year old is?

Is it knowledge of the Faith? Is it age? Should children be considered full-grown at 35 rather than 18?

Let's discuss the essence and ideas here.

Who says you wouldn't be in danger? I don't think you're immune from influences in your surroundings.

18 year olds are naive, and their minds are more malleable.

Are you serious?? You people (Graham, Tele) are incapable of honest discussion.

I feel your pain, s2srea. Many men today (as certain ones here) are just disappointing.

I attended college for six years at a "Catholic" university. I earned a Bachelor of Religious Studies, but that gets you not much of anything. Plus, the Novus Ordo environment is not something in which a traditionalist like me could work in conscience. By the grace of God, I will be attending another university again to study for and earn an MBA. The concentration I have in mind at this point is finance.

College is good for if you go into an actual trade that is useful where you can find work afterward. It is not always the case today, but it really depends in the end on what you do with yourself and what your situation gives you.

I would say then simply for the young men to see what trade suits them best and go for it.

Matthew · « **Reply #11 on:** August 07, 2013, 11:37:40 PM »

Quote from: Graham

Quote from: Matthew
Quote from: Graham
Quote from: Matthew
as long as you're not in danger of falling

Lol, I like how you that tucked away, the tiny little qualification that knocks the legs from under your whole post. Your opponents' central point is that young men and women are in danger of falling.

Ok, Mr. Intellectual, let's debate the essence of the difference between a hypothetical 18 year old man facing college, and ME facing college.

Why am I not in danger, but the 18 year old is?

Is it knowledge of the Faith? Is it age? Should children be considered full-grown at 35 rather than 18?

Let's discuss the essence and ideas here.

Who says you wouldn't be in danger? I don't think you're immune from influences in your surroundings.

18 year olds are naive, and their minds are more malleable.

If I would be in danger, then college is always and in all cases an unacceptable, unnecessary occasion of sin, going there is a mortal sin, and your opinion diverges from +W.

Again, I essentially agree with Telesphorus that only "some" or "a few" men should pursue professional degrees when necessary. And even then, prudence should be used (day student rather than live on campus, stay aloof from socializing, perhaps make a moral friend to help keep you honest, etc.)

And most men are called to a trade, which does NOT require college. Most people who go to college today are wasting their time & money.

I'm kind of prolonging this discussion by getting into the philosophical, "shouldn't a man at 18 be strong enough to keep the Faith." I think he should, though I would be quick to believe that 90% of young men today would NOT be -- due to faults in parenting, knowledge, Crisis in the Church, weak male role models, etc.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #12 on:** August 08, 2013, 06:43:18 AM »

Quote from: Kephapaulos

Quote from: Graham
Who says you wouldn't be in danger? I don't think you're immune from influences in your surroundings.

18 year olds are naive, and their minds are more malleable.

Quote from: s2srea
Are you serious?? You people (Graham, Tele) are incapable of honest discussion.

I feel your pain, s2srea. Many men today (as certain ones here) are just disappointing.

I attended college for six years at a "Catholic" university. I earned a Bachelor of Religious Studies, but that gets you not much of anything. Plus, the Novus Ordo environment is not something in which a traditionalist like me could work in conscience. By the grace of God, I will be attending another university again to study for and earn an MBA. The concentration I have in mind at this point is finance.

College is good for if you go into an actual trade that is useful where you can find work afterward. It is not always the case today, but it really depends in the end on what you do with yourself and what your situation gives you.

I would say then simply for the young men to see what trade suits them best and go for it.

Posts like these prove it doesn't matter what we post, the reaction to them have nothing to do with a rational coherent response.

Tiffany · « **Reply #13 on:** August 08, 2013, 07:18:05 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: Graham
Quote from: Matthew
Quote from: Graham
Quote from: Matthew
as long as you're not in danger of falling

Lol, I like how you that tucked away, the tiny little qualification that knocks the legs from under your whole post. Your opponents' central point is that young men and women are in danger of falling.

Ok, Mr. Intellectual, let's debate the essence of the difference between a hypothetical 18 year old man facing college, and ME facing college.

Why am I not in danger, but the 18 year old is?

Is it knowledge of the Faith? Is it age? Should children be considered full-grown at 35 rather than 18?

Let's discuss the essence and ideas here.

Who says you wouldn't be in danger? I don't think you're immune from influences in your surroundings.

18 year olds are naive, and their minds are more malleable.

If I would be in danger, then college is always and in all cases an unacceptable, unnecessary occasion of sin, going there is a mortal sin, and your opinion diverges from +W.

Again, I essentially agree with Telesphorus that only "some" or "a few" men should pursue professional degrees when necessary. And even then, prudence should be used (day student rather than live on campus, stay aloof from socializing, perhaps make a moral friend to help keep you honest, etc.)

And most men are called to a trade, which does NOT require college. Most people who go to college today are wasting their time & money.

I'm kind of prolonging this discussion by getting into the philosophical, "shouldn't a man at 18 be strong enough to keep the Faith." I think he should, though I would be quick to believe that 90% of young men today would NOT be -- due to faults in parenting, knowledge, Crisis in the Church, weak male role models, etc.

Matthew, good parenting does not mean they do not mature into adulthood. You have to see your children will be adults, not as pre-pubescent children in bigger bodies. Good role models and strong doctrine doesn't change the fact that your adult daughters will enjoy the attention of a man or that your adult son will notice beautiful woman. These are not bad things but we have to keep aware of them. What is likely to happen when you put young single men around promiscuous women?

Unfortunately it's a wicked world, we can't remove all temptation, but we must not set up our children for moral failure, in any stage of their life.

Nishant · « **Reply #14 on:** August 09, 2013, 04:29:16 PM »

I can see why in today's environment some parents' would choose not to send their children to college, but I think, if they are given a solid grounding in the faith, frankly warned of the dangers of bad company, other occasions of sin etc, college can be useful and necessary in some cases.

In the business world, an MBA degree makes a significant difference, especially for those who do not have property or inheritance of some sort. If one hopes to be a good husband and father one day, providing for a large family, one will need a substantial earning potential. So I cannot agree with the idea of a blanket "no college" rule especially for men.