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Author Topic: Catholic Dowry or Sign a Prenup  (Read 4902 times)

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Offline Vintagewife3

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Re: Catholic Dowry or Sign a Prenup
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2018, 12:21:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on July 06, 2018, 11:33:59 AM
    Marry a virgin, as the Church advices. There seems to be a link between the number of partners a woman has had before Marriage, and her propensity to cheat and divorce later on.

    See, everything that the Church teaches is for a good reason; even from a secular point of view.  
    That’s kinda a bold statement. 
    And, what does that say about men..? Everyone should come to marriage a virgin. But that’s hard to find in this world these days.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic Dowry or Sign a Prenup
    « Reply #46 on: July 06, 2018, 12:29:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on July 06, 2018, 11:45:44 AM
    It used to be, (at least where I am from, as my grandmother told me) that if a man found that his bride was not a virgin in the first night, she was promptly returned in shame to her father's house the next day.

    Virginity used to be a real treasure for a woman. Losing it to a man who did not deserve it (not your husband in a long-life commitment) made you quite worthless.

    This should go both ways too.  Historically, there's been something of a double standard where women were expected to be virgins but it didn't matter for men.  Well, it should.  Part of that is due to the fact that there's no way to physically verify virginity in a man.  And, conversely, some women have lost the physical proof of virginity for other reasons (accidents or medical issues) and were considered not to be virgins on account of the mere physical sign being lacking.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Catholic Dowry or Sign a Prenup
    « Reply #47 on: July 06, 2018, 12:47:44 PM »
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    • Quote
    That's why you have to marry the right woman, one who would not ignore the GRAVE spiritual consequences that divorce entails.
    Only God can read hearts.  Only He knows the future.  You only know a person so well before marriage.
    If a woman is pious and has good intentions, they why wouldn't she sign a prenup?  It's only going to affect her if she goes rouge and gets a divorce.  If the marriage is happy, a prenup is meaningless, both to husband and wife.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Dowry or Sign a Prenup
    « Reply #48 on: July 06, 2018, 12:56:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on July 06, 2018, 11:45:44 AM
    Virginity used to be a real treasure for a woman. Losing it to a man who did not deserve it (not your husband in a long-life commitment) made you quite worthless.
    In God's eyes, such a woman is not worthless.  She is a precious soul for whom Christ died.  She is called to repentance and a renewed commitment to virtue.
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    Offline TxTrad

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    Re: Catholic Dowry or Sign a Prenup
    « Reply #49 on: July 06, 2018, 06:36:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 06, 2018, 11:21:24 AM
    I've bolded the key phrase.  That's why you have to marry the right woman, one who would not ignore the GRAVE spiritual consequences that divorce entails.  Yes, we all fail in little ways and in little things, but the right person will not make this grave a decision.  Hey, at that point, she could just try to find a way to kill you off without getting caught ... and that would circuмvent the prenup quite nicely.
    :jester:
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Catholic Dowry or Sign a Prenup
    « Reply #50 on: July 06, 2018, 07:24:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on July 06, 2018, 11:57:18 AM
    Could you give references for this please?

    It is implicit in the Catholic teaching that premarital sex is sinful. Catholics are to flee from all sɛҳuąƖ immorality as St. Paul clearly teaches in Corinthians 1, 7:2. Sex before marriage is an example of sɛҳuąƖ immorality. That is why the Catholic Church strongly encourages couples to be completely chaste until Marriage under pain of mortal sin. The only sɛҳuąƖ behavior that is licit is that between husband and wife (also within parameters of chastity). Other than that, there are only fornication and adultery. Both which are mortal sins and therefore, cause of eternal perdition.
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Catholic Dowry or Sign a Prenup
    « Reply #51 on: July 06, 2018, 07:58:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 06, 2018, 12:29:48 PM
    This should go both ways too.  Historically, there's been something of a double standard where women were expected to be virgins but it didn't matter for men.  Well, it should.  Part of that is due to the fact that there's no way to physically verify virginity in a man.

    I agree; but I do not think it is just a matter of a social construct; but that there are serious biological differences between men and women which causes this. Generally, it is the women who actually set the social and moral standards of society. As women go, so goes society.

    Feminists are all for defending female sɛҳuąƖ freedom and ultra-egalitarianism of both genders. If the men can sleep around, why not the women, they object. The tools for this sɛҳuąƖ female liberation, besides the propaganda of utter mental and moral corruption, have been mainly the contraceptive pill and abortion on demand. I think one of the most fundamental lies of Feminism, is telling girls that they can be as "sɛҳuąƖly active" as the men, without any consequences. This lie is fueled by the perception of injustice in the question of why men are free to have sex and women are not. It creates resentment on a lot of girls who are actually unaware of the male nature and how it relates to the female nature (for example, the major disparity there exists in the male vs. female libidos, or how sex does not bond men but does women). A lot of the promiscuity in modern girls is not due to any actual concupiscence; but is a mere resentful action of rebellion against the perceived injustice.  

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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic Dowry or Sign a Prenup
    « Reply #52 on: July 06, 2018, 08:02:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on July 06, 2018, 07:58:26 PM
    If the men can sleep around, why not the women, they object.

    Except that I'm arguing the converse.  If women can't sleep around, why should men be able to?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic Dowry or Sign a Prenup
    « Reply #53 on: July 06, 2018, 08:04:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on July 06, 2018, 07:58:26 PM
    I agree; but I do not think it is just a matter of a social construct; but that there are serious biological differences between men and women which causes this.

    Yes, there's the biological issue in particular that a woman always knows that a child is hers, whereas a man isn't necessarily as certain.  Yet I'm not arguing from the standpoint of biological imperatives, but from Catholic moral standards.
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Catholic Dowry or Sign a Prenup
    « Reply #54 on: July 06, 2018, 08:07:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on July 06, 2018, 12:56:11 PM
    In God's eyes, such a woman is not worthless.  She is a precious soul for whom Christ died.  She is called to repentance and a renewed commitment to virtue.

    Surely. Amendment of life is always possible in Christ, not matter the gravity of the sin.
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Catholic Dowry or Sign a Prenup
    « Reply #55 on: July 06, 2018, 08:13:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 06, 2018, 08:02:32 PM
    Except that I'm arguing the converse.  If women can't sleep around, why should men be able to?

    Haha  :D. Of course!.

    The Church teaches chastity for both sexes and condemns sex outside Marriage under pain of mortal sin, in both men and women. That is all we need to know really.

    I am not a man so I will never really know for sure how difficult is their struggle against unchastity; but I suspect that it is way more difficult than for a woman.

    Women have our own battles too, though. Vanity and envy come to mind ::).
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic Dowry or Sign a Prenup
    « Reply #56 on: July 06, 2018, 08:18:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on July 06, 2018, 12:56:11 PM
    In God's eyes, such a woman is not worthless.  She is a precious soul for whom Christ died.  She is called to repentance and a renewed commitment to virtue.

    Agreed.  There are many women who, having fallen at some point in their lives, later develop a greater degree of virtue than many virgins.  In fact, the falls can militate against pride ... which actually displease God more (in a sense) than sɛҳuąƖ immorality.  I've known some otherwise-virtuous women (and men) who look down with contempt on those who have fallen in this area, and at the same time a number of women who had checkered pasts who have more humility and compassion for sinners.  Women can be virgins in spirit even if they no longer possess the attribute physically.  Some are virgins because they were not particularly attractive to men and perhaps likely would have fallen had they been approached by some attractive man's advances.  Some who are virgins may not have been had their circuмstances been different; some who are not virgins may have been had their circuмstances been different.  At the end of the day, God knows hearts in spirit and in truth.  I've know quite a few women who did not keep their virginity until marriage who now have hearts of gold.  And the Passion of Christ is more powerful than any sin, even a mountain of sin, and even the combined sin of all mankind has no chance against Him.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic Dowry or Sign a Prenup
    « Reply #57 on: July 06, 2018, 08:28:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on July 06, 2018, 08:13:47 PM
    I am not a man so I will never really know for sure how difficult is their struggle against unchastity; but I suspect that it is way more difficult than for a woman.

    Well, in the realm of thought and the sense of sight, which can trouble men more than women, it's certainly more difficult for men.  But in the realm of physical chastity, I believe that it's actually more difficult for women.  Why?  Because, for men, unless they're in the top 5-10% of men in terms of looks and masculinity, we're not going to be aggressively hit on by women.  But 90-95% of women will be pursued sɛҳuąƖly by some man.  I've known some average-looking women who said that even before they were married they sometimes wore wedding rings to deter these types of advances.  Men are the aggressors in this area.  As a man, on the other hand, all I had to do (since I'm not in that upper echelon of men in terms of attractiveness) was to not go after women.  I would have had to make a conscious deliberate choice to pursue impure relations.  Whereas the impure advances find women passively and can become occasions of sin for them.  And male predators know how to work on women, what to say, and how to make them feel good about themselves, and temp them to give in ... especially when the women are young and not yet emotionally mature.  So I would say that it's more difficult for a man to remain chaste mentally, but more difficult for a woman to remain chaste physically.  [Of course here I exclude solitary physical sins against purity that men could commit.  I am referring to fornication in particular.]
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic Dowry or Sign a Prenup
    « Reply #58 on: July 06, 2018, 08:30:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on July 06, 2018, 08:13:47 PM
    Vanity and envy come to mind ::).
     
    Interesting that you point this out, because I have JUST started to notice very recently that women are more prone to envy than men are.  I've always understood about vanity of course, but envy came as something of a surprise.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic Dowry or Sign a Prenup
    « Reply #59 on: July 06, 2018, 08:36:16 PM »
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    • I don't want to cause scandal by giving the impression that I have gotten excessively familiar with women over the years.  It's just that, for some reason, when I was but a seminarian especially, lots of women poured out their hearts to me ... practically making general confessions.  They sought me out for spiritual advice despite the fact that I was not ordained.  I think that there was something about me that made them comfortable talking to me about things when they hesitated to talk to their priest.  Despite my forum persona, I'm actually an extremely mild-mannered person.
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