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Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Vintagewife3 on May 05, 2019, 09:58:23 AM

Title: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Vintagewife3 on May 05, 2019, 09:58:23 AM
It’s is morally right to be an ethno-Nationalist? What does the church say about such beliefs?

I’ve always considered myself one, but something in me is questioning it now. I’m wondering if it’s Christ reaching out to me. I could use some male  guidance in this area. If it is offensive to God, should I confess it? And should I make a public statement against it? I have spoken out about how we need to fight for European survival quite openly. That it is legitimate to want to preserve our culture above others. That by giving each culture their own country we can bring down crime rates, and stop Persecution of one race against another. 
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 05, 2019, 10:16:54 AM
Ethno-nationalist? In normal times such a word would not exist, and asking your question would be akin to asking "can you be a Catholic and ...".

Moderator: Why not put something innocent, like "breathe"?
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Endeavor on May 05, 2019, 11:19:44 AM
I think that last response was uncalled for, unless you were trying to be witty.

VW asked a valid question. I always think of The Catholic Monarch, Queen Isabella. She knew who the trouble makers/invaders were and dealt with them.

Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: forlorn on May 05, 2019, 11:39:59 AM
I think that last response was uncalled for, unless you were trying to be witty.

VW asked a valid question. I always think of The Catholic Monarch, Queen Isabella. She knew who the trouble makers/invaders were and dealt with them.
I'm pretty sure what he meant is that in normal times everyone would be an ethno-nationalist. Just as every Catholic defecates and sees no contradiction in the two, he says being an ethno-nationalist and a Catholic wouldn't be seen as contradictory at all in sane times. Indeed, at no other point in history were people expected to willingly let themselves become minorities in their own countries. 
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Endeavor on May 05, 2019, 11:43:16 AM
Thank you Forlorn. 
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 05, 2019, 11:45:07 AM
I'm pretty sure what he meant is that in normal times everyone would be an ethno-nationalist. Just as every Catholic defecates and sees no contradiction in the two, he says being an ethno-nationalist and a Catholic wouldn't be seen as contradictory at all in sane times. Indeed, at no other point in history were people expected to willingly let themselves become minorities in their own countries.
Correcto.
Moreover, I was serious when I indicated that I never heard the term ethno-nationalist till this posting.  
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Vintagewife3 on May 05, 2019, 02:15:08 PM
I thought of Isabella of Spain too(I named my middle girl after her. I think that’s why she’s so spunky 🤣) , but I was more concerned over that we would separate all non white nationalities. They would all return to their respective countries, and that would included Christians of color too.


What I’m struggling with is, I do not in fact hate anyone, but I know the the forced diversity we are living in goes against human nature. We were never meant to live all mashed up together respecting everyone’s culture, and religion. It is in fact more dangerous for Christians. I wonder how a Catholic would picture such a separation taking place that would Be pleasing to Our most Holy God, and lord Christ.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: B USC90 on May 05, 2019, 02:17:25 PM
Ethno-nationalism is good and permitted by God. The apostle Paul speaks to the Romans about his own ethno-nationalism. He tells them he was willing to be anathema from Christ for his own people & nation (Jєωs), if it meant not offending God resulting in the anathema. You can't get any more ethno-nationalism than that example.
Romans 9:3-5 (Douay-Rheims)
[3]For I wished myself to be an anathema from Christ, for my brethren, who are my kinsmen according to the flesh, [4] Who are Israelites, to whom belongeth the adoption as of children, and the glory, and the testament, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises: [5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Douay-Rheims commentary:
[3] "Anathema": A curse. The apostle's concern and love for his countrymen the Jєωs was so great, that he was willing to suffer even an anathema, or curse, for their sake; or any evil that could come upon him, without his offending God.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: B USC90 on May 05, 2019, 02:19:31 PM
Ethno-nationalism is good and permitted by God. The apostle Paul speaks to the Romans about his own ethno-nationalism. He tells them he was willing to be anathema from Christ for his own people & nation (Jєωs), if it meant not offending God resulting in the anathema. You can't get any more ethno-nationalism than that example.

Romans 9:3-5 (Douay-Rheims)

[3]For I wished myself to be an anathema from Christ, for my brethren, who are my kinsmen according to the flesh, [4] Who are Israelites, to whom belongeth the adoption as of children, and the glory, and the testament, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises: [5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Douay-Rheims commentary:

[3] "Anathema": A curse. The apostle's concern and love for his countrymen the Jєωs was so great, that he was willing to suffer even an anathema, or curse, for their sake; or any evil that could come upon him, without his offending God.

Edit: sorry for the double post
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: B USC90 on May 05, 2019, 02:26:54 PM
So if the apostle Paul had such great concern and love for his own race & nation, why can't white European caucasoids have the same disposition towards their own people?
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 05, 2019, 05:29:29 PM
So if the apostle Paul had such great concern and love for his own race & nation, why can't white European caucasoids have the same disposition towards their own people?
Because the European has lost the faith and thus their minds. Without the faith LIVED, the European is easy pray for anything. They have been contracepting, aborting, and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖizing themselves for like 60 years now. It is all because they abandoned the faith.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: B USC90 on May 05, 2019, 10:10:36 PM
Quote
Because the European has lost the faith and thus their minds. Without the faith LIVED, the European is easy pray for anything. They have been contracepting, aborting, and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖizing themselves for like 60 years now. It is all because they abandoned the faith.
Not any more than the Jєωs who lost their Faith by rejecting the Messiah Who fulfilled the Faith of their fathers. Yet, the apostle Paul had great concern and love for his own race & nation, most of whom were apostates for rejecting their Messiah, and Paul was willing to be accursed from Christ if it meant saving his race & nation as long as it didn't offend Christ.

If the apostle Paul can have an ethno-nationalist disposition for his own kinsmen who crucified the Lord God, then surely the white European caucasoid can be ethno-nationalists, too, as it's a hedge against global campaign to eradicate the white race and the remnants of Christendom.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 06, 2019, 11:20:23 AM
Last Tradhican wrote :Because the European has lost the faith and thus their minds. Without the faith LIVED, the European is easy pray for anything. They have been contracepting, aborting, and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖizing themselves for like 60 years now. It is all because they abandoned the faith.

Not any more than the Jєωs who lost their Faith by rejecting the Messiah Who fulfilled the Faith of their fathers. Yet, the apostle Paul had great concern and love for his own race & nation, most of whom were apostates for rejecting their Messiah, and Paul was willing to be accursed from Christ if it meant saving his race & nation as long as it didn't offend Christ.

If the apostle Paul can have an ethno-nationalist disposition for his own kinsmen who crucified the Lord God, then surely the white European caucasoid can be ethno-nationalists, too, as it's a hedge against global campaign to eradicate the white race and the remnants of Christendom.
I do not understand your logic, unless you do not believe my observation that the Europeans so easily abandoned their identity and culture as a result of their first losing the faith.  By first abandoning the Faith , the European slowly lost his mind and committed the ѕυιcιdє of contracepting and aborting the future generations of Europe, and those that survived were ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖized (sɛҳuąƖ perverted ) and are producing offspring that are even more corrupted.

The Jєωs rejected Christ as the Messiah, however, many converted and the ones that opposed St. Paul still did keep their faith and did not contracept, abort and homo sɛҳuąƖize themselves at the time of St. Paul.

Sure St. Paul was proud of his own race and people, so was everyone in the world throughout all of man's existence, till the last 15 years or so. 
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: B USC90 on May 06, 2019, 12:51:54 PM
I know most whites have mostly abandoned God and His natural and Divine Law. However, No sin is worse than rejecting Jesus Christ and effectively crucifying Him, which is what most of the Jєωs did to the Messiah. That is worse than Europeans welcoming cultural Marxism after once having the Catholic Faith. Apostle Paul still manifested an ethno-nationalism by having love and concern for his own people that he would have become accursed from Christ for those very Christ-haters & murderers, if it also meant not offending God that resulted in anathema. Ethno-nationalism is good and a natural inclination for preserving a collective, homogenous people as exhibited by St. Paul. It's warranted by God. The scriptures further prove it in 2 Esdra 4. Read it. The Israelites built a wall and armed themselves with swords, spears and other weapons to keep out heathens who sought to harm them. Sound familiar? There is nothing wrong with white caucasoids, whether in Europe or North America, manifesting ethno-nationalism to preserve their own people and help revive a culture that's being eradicated by forces (global Jєωry) of Antichrist. Ethno-nationalism can also help point those people to the Catholic Faith, too. If you can't understand this simple logic, then it's because you either don't want to understand it or you have cognitive limitations requiring remedial exercises.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: forlorn on May 06, 2019, 01:12:40 PM
I know most whites have mostly abandoned God and His natural and Divine Law. However, No sin is worse than rejecting Jesus Christ and effectively crucifying Him, which is what most of the Jєωs did to the Messiah. That is worse than Europeans welcoming cultural Marxism after once having the Catholic Faith. Apostle Paul still manifested an ethno-nationalism by having love and concern for his own people that he would have become accursed from Christ for those very Christ-haters & murderers, if it also meant not offending God that resulted in anathema. Ethno-nationalism is good and a natural inclination for preserving a collective, homogenous people as exhibited by St. Paul. It's warranted by God. The scriptures further prove it in 2 Esdra 4. Read it. The Israelites built a wall and armed themselves with swords, spears and other weapons to keep out heathens who sought to harm them. Sound familiar? There is nothing wrong with white caucasoids, whether in Europe or North America, manifesting ethno-nationalism to preserve their own people and help revive a culture that's being eradicated by forces (global Jєωry) of Antichrist. Ethno-nationalism can also help point those people to the Catholic Faith, too. If you can't understand this simple logic, then it's because you either don't want to understand it or you have cognitive limitations requiring remedial exercises.
You're arguing to a non-existent opponent. No one ever defended or even mention Jєωs before you, nor did anyone condemn ethno-nationalism. Stop putting words in his mouth. 
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 06, 2019, 01:20:53 PM
I know most whites have mostly abandoned God and His natural and Divine Law. However, No sin is worse than rejecting Jesus Christ and effectively crucifying Him, which is what most of the Jєωs did to the Messiah. That is worse than Europeans welcoming cultural Marxism after once having the Catholic Faith. ...If you can't understand this simple logic, then it's because you either don't want to understand it or you have cognitive limitations requiring remedial exercises.
You are your own worst enemy, you are not going to convince anyone of anything, for you can't read and understand what I have clearly written over and over. You are debating with me about nationalism, something that is natural, love of country and ones own peoples and has always been natural throughout man's existence on Earth, so why do you insist on debating about that? I think it is because you either just like to argue or like I speculated in my last posting, you disagree that it is about the loss of the Faith. Read what I have written and stop preaching to the choir about what we already agree with that:


Quote
Last Tradhican wrote: "Ethno-nationalist? I never heard that term till this thread.  In normal times such a word would not exist, and even debating with a Catholic about it is akin to debating whether a Catholic is allowed to breath.


Quote
Forlorn explained:
I'm pretty sure what he meant is that in normal times everyone would be an ethno-nationalist. Just as every Catholic breathes and sees no contradiction in the two, he says being an ethno-nationalist and a Catholic wouldn't be seen as contradictory at all in sane times. Indeed, at no other point in history were people expected to willingly let themselves become minorities in their own countrie
s.




Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: B USC90 on May 06, 2019, 01:23:56 PM
Quote
You're arguing to a non-existent opponent. No one ever defended or even mention Jєωs before you, nor did anyone condemn ethno-nationalism. Stop putting words in his mouth.

The point, and it's a most relevant point, about the Jєωs is they're of the same race & nation as the apostle Paul who was willing to be accursed from Christ for their well-being, despite the fact they murdered and hated Our Lord. If Paul exhibited such great love and concern for his own race & nation, most of whom rejected the Lord, then there is nothing wrong with white European caucasoid-descended people manifesting ethno-nationalism. Ethno-nationalism can lead people who have gone astray from God back to the Catholic faith, too.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 06, 2019, 01:36:23 PM
The point, and it's a most relevant point, about the Jєωs is they're of the same race & nation as the apostle Paul who was willing to be accursed from Christ for their well-being, despite the fact they murdered and hated Our Lord. If Paul exhibited such great love and concern for his own race & nation, most of whom rejected the Lord, then there is nothing wrong with white European caucasoid-descended people manifesting ethno-nationalism. Ethno-nationalism can lead people who have gone astray from God back to the Catholic faith, too.
To even think of defending the FACT there is nothing wrong with nationalism and love of ones own peoples (something which is as natural as breathing), is to admit disbelief. 

I think you do not really believe what you are saying. If you really believed that you were right, you would not debate with anyone that was against nationalism and love of ones people. Anyone that is against nationalism and love of their own people, hates themselves and are suicidal.

When you debate someone, you also empower them. You are empowering your enemies.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: forlorn on May 06, 2019, 01:41:29 PM
The point, and it's a most relevant point, about the Jєωs is they're of the same race & nation as the apostle Paul who was willing to be accursed from Christ for their well-being, despite the fact they murdered and hated Our Lord. If Paul exhibited such great love and concern for his own race & nation, most of whom rejected the Lord, then there is nothing wrong with white European caucasoid-descended people manifesting ethno-nationalism. Ethno-nationalism can lead people who have gone astray from God back to the Catholic faith, too.
And no one in the thread has argued against this at all. 
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: B USC90 on May 06, 2019, 01:52:12 PM
Quote
To even think of defending the FACT there is nothing wrong with nationalism and love of ones own peoples (something which is as natural as breathing), is to admit disbelief.

The OP is premised off the uncertainty of the good or Christian-like nature of ethno-nationalism. Nothing wrong with me telling her it's not wrong and why it's not wrong.

Quote
I think you do not really believe what you are saying. If you really believed that you were right, you would not debate with anyone that was against nationalism and love of ones people.

I think you're constructing a make-believe narrative to compensate for something you lack. Whatever it might be...
I would say "neat story", but I can't because it's not...


Quote
When you debate someone, you also empower them. You are empowering your enemies.

Oh, so I guess St. Augustine, St. John Chrysostom, St. Thomas Aquinas, et al, empowered their enemies. Thanks for letting me know that debating is bad and I should become a eunuch.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Vintagewife3 on May 07, 2019, 02:25:37 PM
Your answers have been appreciated! Thank you for your time!!
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: poche on May 14, 2019, 11:59:04 PM
I think it depends on how your ethno-nationalism manifests itself.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Joseantoniano on July 10, 2019, 01:51:21 PM
EDIT: *post removed*
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Vintagewife3 on July 10, 2019, 03:42:26 PM
I think it depends on how your ethno-nationalism manifests itself.
Would you mind elaborating? What would be bad nationalism? 
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: terminal ballistics on July 11, 2019, 08:02:46 AM
(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/66895574_101645927822727_3093886847089115136_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_oc=AQmsB7S-ffLKgwBORgJLVPMBDeRkWQ7PI75rqq0ZR_vl31RnVV0xFbKQ8gDSk4KC8wk&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=8466e0395caaaf434b23c2899124ae7e&oe=5DC19100)
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Vintagewife3 on July 11, 2019, 08:34:45 AM
Please don’t turn this into a picture thread. I want verbal discussion.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Mithrandylan on July 11, 2019, 09:09:43 AM
Ethno-nationalism strikes me as the default mode of social organization.  Throughout all of human history-- even unto today-- men have organized themselves according to ethno-sameness.  The only difference today is that the oligarchy disapproves and has an aggressive agenda of multi-culturalism, so we are all under the vague impression that there is something vicious about a so-called "ethno-state."  Yet the northeast liberals still ogranize themselves in small, posh communities behind gates.  Hollywood has its walls and borders and guess what? No brothers or day laborers to be seen.  So even if on the macro level the social engineers have managed to blur the ethno-significance of their states, once you zoom in to other levels its obvious how people organize themselves.

Of course this doesn't necessarily prove that such organization is right, only that it is the tendency of man to so organize.  To show that it's right, or at least that there's nothing wrong with it, does not the Church's reticence on the issue through hundreds if not thousands of years speak volumes?  The multicultural state is incredibly new, the traditional state encountered by the Church was one of ethno-natives, and I am completely unaware of her ever rebuking the composition or organization of these states.

Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: terminal ballistics on July 11, 2019, 09:19:07 AM
(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/66384529_112928016670452_840045845901475840_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_oc=AQlDfjPgr8hPPxOPsel5aj8rK40XBkvuSAlJcvS-qWV517VAUVFOKbfVOk5oAtXjtQY&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=9d0249624d42126a2833d5be26a36691&oe=5DA890CA)
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: OHCA on July 13, 2019, 12:29:53 AM
I think it depends on how your ethno-nationalism manifests itself.

How about if I don’t want to live in the middle of a bunch of collard green-eating Walgreens-looters?  Is that a manifestation to your liking?  Or what if I support building a wall on the Mexican border?

Please share an example of what you would consider an appropriate manifestation.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Jaynek on July 13, 2019, 07:08:26 AM
Ethno-nationalism strikes me as the default mode of social organization.  Throughout all of human history-- even unto today-- men have organized themselves according to ethno-sameness.  The only difference today is that the oligarchy disapproves and has an aggressive agenda of multi-culturalism, so we are all under the vague impression that there is something vicious about a so-called "ethno-state."  Yet the northeast liberals still ogranize themselves in small, posh communities behind gates.  Hollywood has its walls and borders and guess what? No brothers or day laborers to be seen.  So even if on the macro level the social engineers have managed to blur the ethno-significance of their states, once you zoom in to other levels its obvious how people organize themselves.

Of course this doesn't necessarily prove that such organization is right, only that it is the tendency of man to so organize.  To show that it's right, or at least that there's nothing wrong with it, does not the Church's reticence on the issue through hundreds if not thousands of years speak volumes?  The multicultural state is incredibly new, the traditional state encountered by the Church was one of ethno-natives, and I am completely unaware of her ever rebuking the composition or organization of these states.
While I agree that an ethno-state has always been the norm, there is teaching against ethno-sameness within the Church.  

The account of Pentecost in Acts 2 emphasizes the ethnic diversity of the first Christians: 
"[6] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=2&l=6-#x) And when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded in mind, because that every man heard them speak in his own tongue. [7] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=2&l=7-#x) And they were all amazed, and wondered, saying: Behold, are not all these, that speak, Galileans? [8] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=2&l=8-#x) And how have we heard, every man our own tongue wherein we were born? [9] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=2&l=9-#x) Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[10] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=2&l=10-#x) Phrygia, and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome,[11] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=2&l=11-#x) Jєωs also, and proselytes, Cretes, and Arabians: we have heard them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God."

We see an account of ethnic tension in the early Church in Acts 6: 
"And in those days, the number of the disciples increasing, there arose a murmuring of the Greeks against the Hebrews, for that their widows were neglected in the daily ministration."  This situation led to the appointment of deacons to oversee the fair treatment of all the ethnic groups.

This passage in Galations refers to ethnic (not religious) distinctions when it says "Jєω nor Greek":
"[26] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=55&ch=3&l=26-#x) For you are all the children of God by faith, in Christ Jesus. [27] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=55&ch=3&l=27-#x) For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ. [28] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=55&ch=3&l=28-#x) There is neither Jєω nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus."  

The Church is meant to be one people called out from among all nations of the earth.  The Latin word "ecclesia" was borrowed from the Greek words meaning "called out". Ethnic distinctions are meaningless to our status as Christians.

I think that an ideal Christian state (not that any of us live in one of those) would care more about whether or not people were Christian than their ethnicity.

Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: MiserereMei on July 13, 2019, 08:32:51 AM
It’s is morally right to be an ethno-Nationalist? What does the church say about such beliefs?

I’ve always considered myself one, but something in me is questioning it now. I’m wondering if it’s Christ reaching out to me. I could use some male  guidance in this area. If it is offensive to God, should I confess it? And should I make a public statement against it? I have spoken out about how we need to fight for European survival quite openly. That it is legitimate to want to preserve our culture above others. That by giving each culture their own country we can bring down crime rates, and stop Persecution of one race against another.
In my opinion it is case specific. Look at Europe before the Reformation: different ethnicities bur one faith. Spain during the colonization of the Americas promoted marriage between Europeans and Americans but again under one faith. A different story is having different principles even from the same ethnicity.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Jaynek on July 13, 2019, 09:00:19 AM
It’s is morally right to be an ethno-Nationalist? What does the church say about such beliefs?

I’ve always considered myself one, but something in me is questioning it now. I’m wondering if it’s Christ reaching out to me. I could use some male  guidance in this area. If it is offensive to God, should I confess it? And should I make a public statement against it? I have spoken out about how we need to fight for European survival quite openly. That it is legitimate to want to preserve our culture above others. That by giving each culture their own country we can bring down crime rates, and stop Persecution of one race against another.
Fighting for "European survival" is not about ethnicity.  European is not an ethnicity nor a culture.  French, German, Italian, etc. are individual distinct groups.  They all have their own languages, cultures and customs.  

In the United States and Canada, people from various European countries have been inter-marrying for generations and there are many people who do not identify with any specific European culture.  Such people do not have an ethnicity or culture to preserve.

In your last sentence you mention race.  You seem to use it interchangeably with ethnicity and culture, but it is not the same.  Race refers to physical characteristics such as skin colour.  People who share physical characteristics do not necessarily share a culture.  Historically, race was not a concept that was very important.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Mithrandylan on July 13, 2019, 09:53:10 AM
While I agree that an ethno-state has always been the norm, there is teaching against ethno-sameness within the Church.  

The account of Pentecost in Acts 2 emphasizes the ethnic diversity of the first Christians:
"[6] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=2&l=6-#x) And when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded in mind, because that every man heard them speak in his own tongue. [7] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=2&l=7-#x) And they were all amazed, and wondered, saying: Behold, are not all these, that speak, Galileans? [8] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=2&l=8-#x) And how have we heard, every man our own tongue wherein we were born? [9] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=2&l=9-#x) Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[10] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=2&l=10-#x) Phrygia, and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome,[11] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=2&l=11-#x) Jєωs also, and proselytes, Cretes, and Arabians: we have heard them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God."

We see an account of ethnic tension in the early Church in Acts 6:
"And in those days, the number of the disciples increasing, there arose a murmuring of the Greeks against the Hebrews, for that their widows were neglected in the daily ministration."  This situation led to the appointment of deacons to oversee the fair treatment of all the ethnic groups.

This passage in Galations refers to ethnic (not religious) distinctions when it says "Jєω nor Greek":
"[26] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=55&ch=3&l=26-#x) For you are all the children of God by faith, in Christ Jesus. [27] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=55&ch=3&l=27-#x) For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ. [28] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=55&ch=3&l=28-#x) There is neither Jєω nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus."

The Church is meant to be one people called out from among all nations of the earth.  The Latin word "ecclesia" was borrowed from the Greek words meaning "called out". Ethnic distinctions are meaningless to our status as Christians.

I think that an ideal Christian state (not that any of us live in one of those) would care more about whether or not people were Christian than their ethnicity.
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I don't take these verses and instances to be teachings against ethno-sameness.  Rather, they emphasize that what matters most is not ethnicity, but religion.  Taken in context (the infant, Aposotlic Church) was emerging from the Old Testament tradition which was very much centered and dependent on ethno-sameness.  Our Lord rebuked the Jєωs, though, for their slavish fetishistic commitment to the significance of their DNA and what He instituted was a new covenant in baptism and the Gospel, one which was intended for all nations rather than just one. 
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Old habits die hard, and as a result we see the New Testament writers rebuking and instructing their flocks that in Christ, all are the same.  Your ethnicity doesn't win you any special favors with God.
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That said, it has still been the habit of the Church since forever to respect ethnic composition and tradition.  Perhaps no better example of this is in her tolerance for liturgical traditions, especially those in the east (and even in the west prior to Quo Primum).  The Church molds her message for each unique population throughout history: St. John wrote his Gospel in Greek, The Jesuit missionaries learned the indigenous tongues, and so on.  Wherever she can, the Church respects the customs of ethnically ordered societies. 
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Paul FHC on July 13, 2019, 10:28:06 AM
I am left with the impression that "ethno-nationalism" is a word that has been invented by a marxist. It portrays dirtily what is none other than simple patriotism, that is to say, love of one's fatherland.

Fatherland, that is, nation, which comes from the latin word natus, meaning born, intrinsically implies the idea of a "people," a very large family, if you will.

Love towards Fatherland is a good thing. In fact, St. Thomas says that Piety, which moves man to love God, moves him also to love his parents as well as his country (IIa IIae, Q. CI, AI).

It follows that a man should prefer the members of his family to complete strangers, his fellow citizens to aliens.

To apply this idea concretely,(I apologize in advance to any politically-correct Catholics on this thread) an American should not feel any obligation to invite aliens unconditionally into his country in order that they enjoy the fruits of the USA. We citizens could eventually have an obligation in charity to help our neighbours in times of true distress. We are not, however, obliged in Justice to allow Mexicans into our country only that they may enjoy a better life.

"But the suffering!....."

No.

Mexicans may live in worse conditions than Americans, but they do not live in misery. The fact that some people be poor is not a crime crying out for vengeance.

Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Capt McQuigg on July 13, 2019, 12:10:28 PM
The short and sweet answer is yes.  You can be a Catholic and a Frenchman.  As long as Catholicism is first and foremost in your mind and heart, all is well.  If something French, in your mind, abrogates some Catholic dogma then you are in big trouble.

It is even considered perfectly healthy to love your country and to pray for your country.

Pretty simple concept when you think about it.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: rosenley on July 13, 2019, 02:29:29 PM
Catholicism permits ethnic determination/nationalization without the presence of these few concepts (generally):

1) general racial superiority, and
2) the elevation of race/culture over religion.

The first concept is simple: claiming that, say, blacks are less human than whites violates the Catholic understanding of racial diversification (the sons of Noah and how they spread all the races of the world, hence making all races descended from Adam and Eve). However, it's not wrong to say that white cultures have had more success than black cultures, or that these black cultures were 'saved' or were 'in need' of principles that were present in white/European cultures — even claiming that non-white cultures should be thankful for whites and Catholics for removing the pagan elements of their culture.

The elevation of race over religion includes the disregard for God and the natural monarchical order of heaven. For example, in some 19th century nationalist movements, Catholics would claim that the nation-state was superior to the spiritual 'state' of that nation. Supernatural elements of reality were made subordinate to the physical or natural aspects of the state's authority. In the case of race, specifically, it's the consideration of race before religion in cases where these two ideals may conflict. An excellent hypothetical example is a choice to allow a white daughter to marry a white non-Catholic over a black Catholic (rejecting the black Catholic is perfectly fine, in a non-hypothetically scenario).

Of course, ethnic nationalism isn't the only ideology subject to this type of scrutiny. Maintain the superiority of Catholicism/God over all else, and your political ideologies should align within the bosom of Catholic teaching.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Bas Congo V on July 13, 2019, 03:40:11 PM
Quote
Ethno-nationalism is good and a natural inclination for preserving a collective, homogenous people as exhibited by St. Paul [Romans 9:3-5 (Douay-Rheims)]. It's warranted by God. The scriptures further prove it in 2 Esdra 4. Read it.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: claudel on July 14, 2019, 03:16:34 AM
Historically, race was not a concept that was very important.

Precisely the opposite is true.

In fact, until at least the 1950s, the word "race" was used in a far, far broader sense than it is now. For an especially vivid example, look at the speeches that Charles Lindbergh made in 1940 and 1941, when his America First movement had the support of more than 70 percent of the American people in its quest to keep this country out of the Jєωιѕн-instigated World War II. Lindbergh spoke frequently of the vindictive goals of the Jєωιѕн race on the one hand and, on the other, of the legitimate and sensible desire for peace of the several western and northern European races that then constituted the overwhelming bulk of the US populace. The Jєωιѕн-led campaign to condemn him and the bulk of the American people of those days as "evil racists" did not gain any traction till the late eighties, by which time the Jєωιѕн brainwashing program had had almost five decades of success under its belt.

On a related subject, reparations, a topic near and dear to every Antifa activist's heart, see this linked article (https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2019/07/12/reparations-for-slavery-its-not-a-one-way-street/). Its author, here using a pseudonym, is a Traditional Catholic. He is also an ethnonationalist—that is, a patriot—and a man with no illusions as to the fate of white Christians once they have been completely disfranchised in the countries their ancestors built.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Meg on July 14, 2019, 07:30:39 AM
Precisely the opposite is true.

In fact, until at least the 1950s, the word "race" was used in a far, far broader sense than it is now. For an especially vivid example, look at the speeches that Charles Lindbergh made in 1940 and 1941, when his America First movement had the support of more than 70 percent of the American people in its quest to keep this country out of the Jєωιѕн-instigated World War II. Lindbergh spoke frequently of the vindictive goals of the Jєωιѕн race on the one hand and, on the other, of the legitimate and sensible desire for peace of the several western and northern European races that then constituted the overwhelming bulk of the US populace. The Jєωιѕн-led campaign to condemn him and the bulk of the American people of those days as "evil racists" did not gain any traction till the late eighties, by which time the Jєωιѕн brainwashing program had had almost five decades of success under its belt.

On a related subject, reparations, a topic near and dear to every Antifa activist's heart, see this linked article (https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2019/07/12/reparations-for-slavery-its-not-a-one-way-street/). Its author, here using a pseudonym, is a Traditional Catholic. He is also an ethnonationalist—that is, a patriot—and a man with no illusions as to the fate of white Christians once they have been completely disfranchised in the countries their ancestors built.

The ideas put forth in the linked article, are they specifically Catholic in your view? Because I'm not sure that the Church teaches that the Black races have a deficient IQ, as is put forth in the article. I have lived and worked among Blacks, and have not personally seen that they have a deficient IQ.

I do agree that in the post cινιℓ ωαr era, how blacks were integrated into society should have been handled differently. In Mexico, for example, the Indians there were integrated early on into colonial society, and they were allowed to have government jobs, including teaching jobs. But then, Mexico was fully Catholic and treated its indigenous people pretty well, and the number of Blacks imported into Mexico was very small. Indians weren't thought of as being sub-standard. I think it was in the 1700's that one of the popes wrote a bull in which it said that the Indians in Mexico were not to be used as slaves.

That being said, it's terrible that that media is promoting prejudice against whites, and white men in particular. It defies logic that some of those from third world countries want to come here for a better life, and then work against those who made/make a better life possible, by saying that white men cause all of the problems in society. That's what Hitler did to the Jєωs (apologies to the Hitler fans on the forum). I think that the media (and the illuminati that controls it) would love to start a cινιℓ ωαr based on race and supposed disenfranchisement of the other races. I have to hope that most Americans would have enough sense to oppose it.

As far as the idea of race goes, I agree that race is important. The DNA testing organizations have grown a lot, since many people want to know what their genetic background is. Those of us whose ancestors come from England, Ireland and Scotland know how important it can be to have pride in one's race. 
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: forlorn on July 14, 2019, 09:35:04 AM
Fighting for "European survival" is not about ethnicity.  European is not an ethnicity nor a culture.  French, German, Italian, etc. are individual distinct groups.  They all have their own languages, cultures and customs.  

In the United States and Canada, people from various European countries have been inter-marrying for generations and there are many people who do not identify with any specific European culture.  Such people do not have an ethnicity or culture to preserve.

In your last sentence you mention race.  You seem to use it interchangeably with ethnicity and culture, but it is not the same.  Race refers to physical characteristics such as skin colour.  People who share physical characteristics do not necessarily share a culture.  Historically, race was not a concept that was very important.
I agree that the idea of a "white" race is a bit silly when speaking of Europe(although it makes more sense in America), as Europe is full of many different white ethnicities in their own homelands. A Spaniard wouldn't be happy to have Germans become a majority in his homeland, even though they're "white" too. In America it makes more sense since the European ethnicities and cultures have mixed, but in Europe it's better to speak in terms of individual ethnicities. Hence the term ethno-nationalism.

But note I say ethnicity and not just culture. One's bloodline is very important. People of your ethnicity are effectively your extended family. In the past, before mass-immigration and the like, the people in your home-town were related to you as close as a couple generations back. Your relation to anyone in your country was a function of the geographical distance between you and them, but even in the farthest reaches you probably had a common ancestor not too many generations back. Whereas if you have an African for one neighbour and an Asian for another, your last common ancestor with any of them was probably 5,000 years ago. Even a Spaniard and a German as neighbours would have to go back at least 500 years. This familial relation between countrymen in an ethno-state(read: every country before the last 100 years, even in the great Empires the various ethnicities stuck to their own regions/provinces for the most part) is very important, as the family is the microcosm of the nation-state. Families comprise communities, communities comprise villages, towns and cities, and villages, towns and cities comprise nations. The term "fatherland" or "motherland" was very true and important in the past, for you were a child of your nation. With the government representing the parents, the King as the father and the Church as the mother. Nations were ordered in a natural hierarchy, and that's what gave them strength. Another thing you may note is that the word "nation" used to mean "people", and that's the way it's used in the Bible for example. England = the English nation = the English people. So ethnicity has always been the core of the nation, and it's not something that should just be waived away, as if replacing a country's populace would not harm it or destroy its identity as long as they spoke the same language and acted vaguely similar to the people they replaced.

Now this is not to say that racial/ethnic discrimination on a personal level is moral. One should treat all mankind as their neighbour. Treating a person as lesser because they have a different culture or skin colour to you is wrong. But it is not wrong for a nation to wish to preserve its ethno-cultural make-up, and to limit immigration as necessary to achieve that. Immigration is a privilege, not a right, and so a nation has a right to stop or limit it for whatever reason it chooses.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: forlorn on July 14, 2019, 09:40:54 AM
This passage in Galations refers to ethnic (not religious) distinctions when it says "Jєω nor Greek":
"[26] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=55&ch=3&l=26-#x) For you are all the children of God by faith, in Christ Jesus. [27] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=55&ch=3&l=27-#x) For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ. [28] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=55&ch=3&l=28-#x) There is neither Jєω nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus."
The part I've bolded and underlined should prove you're misunderstanding the verse, I'd imagine. Would you say that the only differences between men and women are superficial and that they are effectively interchangeable, as you assert with ethnicities? Not even feminist could quite asset that, as even they must recognise a man cannot give birth. So clearly, when the verse says "there is neither male or female", it does not mean to suggest that gender does not exist or does not matter. What it means is that men and women are equal under God. The verse is about how there is no longer a "chosen people" based off ethnicity as the Jєωs were before the Messiah. Christians are now the chosen people, whether they are men or women, Jєω or Greek or Apache or Chinese. That does not mean we should not recognise and celebrate ethnic differences - otherwise we'd to not recognise the differences between men and women, and we can see the madness that sort of thing's starting to cause in the modern world. 
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Jaynek on July 14, 2019, 10:04:40 AM
Precisely the opposite is true.

In fact, until at least the 1950s, the word "race" was used in a far, far broader sense than it is now.
The modern concept of race was introduced as a part of "Enlightenment" ideology in the 18th century.  It has only been around for a couple of centuries.  It was not part of Catholic thinking but was associated with an anti-Catholic movement.  (Virtually every social evil of our time can be traced to "Enlightenment" philosophy.)  This is a relatively short period of time compared to the history of the Church which is why I said it was not historically important.  For most of Christian history it never even occurred to anyone to divide up humanity based on physical characteristics like skin or hair colour.  

Magisterial teaching about race appears in Mit Brennender Sorge (1937) http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html (http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html)

8. Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds.

We can see from this that the concept of race, while not intrinsically wrong, is capable of being distorted and perverted into something evil.

Love of one's country is a good and patriotism has long been recognized as a virtue within Catholic thinking.  It is also good to honour one's ethnicity and culture.  But only up to a point.  When these things become a person's highest value, they take the place that rightfully belongs to God alone.  In that case, they have become a form of idolatry.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Bas Congo V on July 14, 2019, 10:16:50 AM
Before the New Covenant, God gave salvation only to the early Hebrews who lived His Word. This fact proves that race matters. Two criteria needed to be met for salvation at that time:

1) live the 10 Commandments, the Faith given to them by Abraham, the Mosaic Law
2) you had to be a Hebrew

Even the righteous Gentiles could not be saved at that time. They weren't Hebrew. This proves that race matters. It always mattered and it still matters. It's part of the ontological order set forth by God in His creation.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Jaynek on July 14, 2019, 10:21:01 AM
The part I've bolded and underlined should prove you're misunderstanding the verse, I'd imagine. Would you say that the only differences between men and women are superficial and that they are effectively interchangeable, as you assert with ethnicities? 
I have not asserted such a thing about ethnicities.  I have not said that the differences between ethnicities are superficial or that they are interchangeable.  I said that ethnicity does not matter within the Church.  It has no bearing on one's relationship with God nor the love that should exist between fellow believers.
I am not misunderstanding the verse, but rather you have misunderstood my point.

There are other contexts in which the differences between ethnicities are significant, just as there are contexts in which the differences between men and women are significant.  I certainly do not consider men and women to be interchangeable in general.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Bas Congo V on July 14, 2019, 10:23:43 AM
The Old Testament is the most ethno-nationalist book on the planet.

Those with eyes to see & ears to hear understand this fact. Those who are honest will admit it.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: forlorn on July 14, 2019, 10:25:22 AM
The modern concept of race was introduced as a part of "Enlightenment" ideology in the 18th century.  It has only been around for a couple of centuries.  It was not part of Catholic thinking but was associated with an anti-Catholic movement.  (Virtually every social evil of our time can be traced to "Enlightenment" philosophy.)  This is a relatively short period of time compared to the history of the Church which is why I said it was not historically important.  For most of Christian history it never even occurred to anyone to divide up humanity based on physical characteristics like skin or hair colour.  

Magisterial teaching about race appears in Mit Brennender Sorge (1937) http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html (http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html)

8. Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds.

We can see from this that the concept of race, while not intrinsically wrong, is capable of being distorted and perverted into something evil.

Love of one's country is a good and patriotism has long been recognized as a virtue within Catholic thinking.  It is also good to honour one's ethnicity and culture.  But only up to a point.  When these things become a person's highest value, they take the place that rightfully belongs to God alone.  In that case, they have become a form of idolatry.
The Spaniards had a racial caste system in their colonies in the 1500s. Not to say that their system was just, but it shows race predates the Enlightenment by quite a while. 
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: forlorn on July 14, 2019, 10:28:49 AM
I have not asserted such a thing about ethnicities.  I have not said that the differences between ethnicities are superficial or that they are interchangeable.  I said that ethnicity does not matter within the Church.  It has no bearing on one's relationship with God nor the love that should exist between fellow believers.
I am not misunderstanding the verse, but rather you have misunderstood my point.

There are other contexts in which the differences between ethnicities are significant, just as there are contexts in which the differences between men and women are significant.  I certainly do not consider men and women to be interchangeable in general.
This thread is not about the Church, it is about the nation. A nation can have policies that discriminate based on ethnicity(e.g immigration policies) without denying that all ethnicities are equal in Christ. Hence ethno-nationalist. You implied that a Christian country ought to not care about ethnicity at all and used that verse to back it up, but the verse doesn't prove it. 
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Jaynek on July 14, 2019, 10:30:11 AM
Before the New Covenant, God gave salvation only to the early Hebrews who lived His Word. This fact proves that race matters. 
This way of using the word "race" is not what is typically meant by the term.  The way "race" is normally used is to refer to division of humanity by physical characteristics, primarily skin colour.  The Hebrews were an ethnic group; they shared common blood, common customs and culture, and common language.  These things can matter very much.  They play a key role in social relationships.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Bas Congo V on July 14, 2019, 10:34:08 AM
The Hebrews were a race. They weren't only an ethnic group.

Today, the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan is still a race, AND THEY AREN'T WHITE.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Bas Congo V on July 14, 2019, 10:40:29 AM
Jєωs aren't white (European-descended Caucasians).

They appear "white" to most people because most people are deceived by the world. That's why Jєωs pretend to be white as they try to convince real white people to abandon their preservation & self-interests, then they switch back to being Jєωιѕн

True race is not based on the appearance of the complexion of skin. Rather, it's genetic. The phenotype is largely determined by the genotype. That's why a German Jєω doesn't look like a real ethnic German. Same applies to all ethnicities in the Caucasian race. A Jєω is quite obvious, if you're awake to what they are... An awake person can usually identify a Jєω.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: forlorn on July 14, 2019, 10:41:16 AM
This way of using the word "race" is not what is typically meant by the term.  The way "race" is normally used is to refer to division of humanity by physical characteristics, primarily skin colour.  The Hebrews were an ethnic group; they shared common blood, common customs and culture, and common language.  These things can matter very much.  They play a key role in social relationships.
Common blood is what makes a race. Those physical characteristics you referred to are shared by people with common blood. A race is jut a group of ethnicities. 
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Jaynek on July 14, 2019, 11:01:14 AM
This thread is not about the Church, it is about the nation. A nation can have policies that discriminate based on ethnicity(e.g immigration policies) without denying that all ethnicities are equal in Christ. Hence ethno-nationalist. You implied that a Christian country ought to not care about ethnicity at all and used that verse to back it up, but the verse doesn't prove it.
Immigration policies are typically about law not ethnicity.  Expecting people to follow a country's laws concerning who may enter a country and under what conditions they are allowed to live there has no intrinsic connection to ethnicity.  Everybody, regardless of ethnic group, ought to obey such laws.  (I suppose, theoretically, a country could make laws that allowed only certain ethnic groups to immigrate, but that is not part of any current discussion of immigration policies.)

A Christian state would care far more about its citizens being Christian than what ethnic group they came from. I think that just follows logically from the nature of a Christian state. 

The Spaniards had a racial caste system in their colonies in the 1500s. Not to say that their system was just, but it shows race predates the Enlightenment by quite a while.
The caste system was not based on physical racial characteristics (as in the Enlightenment understanding) but on ethnicity and other factors.  For example, the illegitimate child of a Spaniard and a Native was considered part of the mestizo caste. If the parents were married, however, the child was categorized as either Spanish or Native, depending on which culture he was raised in.  
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: forlorn on July 14, 2019, 12:38:30 PM
Immigration policies are typically about law not ethnicity.  Expecting people to follow a country's laws concerning who may enter a country and under what conditions they are allowed to live there has no intrinsic connection to ethnicity.  Everybody, regardless of ethnic group, ought to obey such laws.  (I suppose, theoretically, a country could make laws that allowed only certain ethnic groups to immigrate, but that is not part of any current discussion of immigration policies.)
Well yes, it's not in the current realm of discussion, right now we're too busy trying to stop open borders to focus on particulars. What I'm saying is that it's within a nation's rights to do so, and that it is not immoral. 

A Christian state would care far more about its citizens being Christian than what ethnic group they came from. I think that just follows logically from the nature of a Christian state.
The caste system was not based on physical racial characteristics (as in the Enlightenment understanding) but on ethnicity and other factors.  For example, the illegitimate child of a Spaniard and a Native was considered part of the mestizo caste. If the parents were married, however, the child was categorized as either Spanish or Native, depending on which culture he was raised in.  
It would care about the religion of its subjects the most, but there is nothing wrong with a country wanting to maintain its ethno-cultural identity. 
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Jaynek on July 14, 2019, 02:05:35 PM
Well yes, it's not in the current realm of discussion, right now we're too busy trying to stop open borders to focus on particulars. What I'm saying is that it's within a nation's rights to do so, and that it is not immoral.
I see what you're saying now.  I was confused because I thought it was a reference to current events.  I even have an example of what you are talking about within my own family.

My husband is the child of immigrants from Lithuania. He was raised with a strong ethnic identity and sense of his cultural heritage.  We tried to pass that on to our children.

Lithuania has an immigration policy that grants virtually automatic citizenship to direct descendants of people who were citizens of Lithuania before 1940.  Under this law, our eldest daughter moved to Lithuania and became a citizen.

People who are not ethnically Lithuanian must follow more complex procedures if they wish to live there. It is reasonable for Lithuania to give preferential treatment to ethnic Lithuanians as immigrants.  They want to foster the connection between ethnicity and nationality.  I agree with you that this is a moral policy.

Under Soviet rule, the opposite happened.  Soviet policy was to destroy Lithuanian ethnic identity. One method was forced immigration of people who were not ethnically Lithuanian, many Russians for example.  They wanted Lithuanians to think of themselves as members of the Soviet Union rather than as Lithuanians.  They did not want people to have patriotism toward Lithuania.

This situation also shows the difference between race and ethnicity.  Russians and Lithuanians are the same race.  Both are white Europeans and look fairly similar.  But they have different languages, histories and culture.  It makes sense to speak of preserving Lithuanian culture or Russian culture, but not white culture.  There is no "white language" or "white cuisine" or "white customs".  
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: claudel on July 15, 2019, 05:40:40 AM
The ideas put forth in the linked article, are they specifically Catholic in your view? Because I'm not sure that the Church teaches that the Black races have a deficient IQ, as is put forth in the article. I have lived and worked among Blacks, and have not personally seen that they have a deficient IQ.

There is nothing in the article that conflicts in any way with the Faith. That is not to say that disagreements with its theses and arguments necessarily conflict with the Faith either.

Also, nowhere is the expression "deficient IQ" ever used—and there is no reason that it should be, since deficiency is not at issue. What is at issue, rather, is the demonstrable fact, based on more than a century's worth of study, that in the aggregate blacks (no capital B, please note!) have lower IQs than whites.

As to whether the Church teaches any such thing, the answer is of course no. Similarly the Church does not teach that genetically unmodified grain is healthier than GMO grain, but the evidence that it is is overwhelming. Such matters are of no relevance to the Faith whatsoever, unless of course they involve the propagation of lies.

Incidentally, I too have lived and worked among blacks, in my case for more than seventy years. The evidence of my senses is that they do indeed have measurably lower intelligence on average than whites—and what is far more sadly relevant, they have markedly less moral restraint and impulse control.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Jaynek on July 15, 2019, 11:23:46 AM
They appear "white" to most people because most people are deceived by the world. That's why Jєωs pretend to be white as they try to convince real white people to abandon their preservation & self-interests, then they switch back to being Jєωιѕн

True race is not based on the appearance of the complexion of skin. Rather, it's genetic. The phenotype is largely determined by the genotype. That's why a German Jєω doesn't look like a real ethnic German. Same applies to all ethnicities in the Caucasian race. A Jєω is quite obvious, if you're awake to what they are... An awake person can usually identify a Jєω.
Many Jєωs do not appear white.  One branch of Jєωs, the αѕнкenαzιm, appears white.  Other branches do not. 

(https://aaregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Ethiopian-Jєωs-300x202.jpg)
Because of this, one of the social problems occurring in Israel is tensions between so-called White Jєωs and Black Jєωs.  (I hope we will not be accused of anti-semitism for suggesting that there are any problems in Israel. :) )

I wonder if Bas Congo V can identify the race of this person:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/Fran%C3%A7ois_Libermann.png/220px-Fran%C3%A7ois_Libermann.png)

Here's a clue.  This is a portrait of Venerable Francis Liebermann, the second founder of the Spiritan order of missionaries of which Archbishop Lefebvre was a member.

Fr. Liebermann was born to a Jєωιѕн family.  He was even the son of a Rabbi.  But he ceased to be Jєωιѕн when he was baptized at the age of 24.  He was also disowned by his father.

This is one of the main reasons that it does not make sense to consider Jєωs a race.  In virtually any other context, people have no choice concerning what race they are.  But some people who are not Jєωs become Jєωs and other people, who are Jєωs, stop being Jєωs by accepting Christ.

Judaism is a false religion of which one of the main tenets is the rejection of Christ.  This is what is wrong with it, not some supposed defect of Jєωιѕн blood or peculiarity of their appearance.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Bas Congo V on July 15, 2019, 11:31:20 AM
Jєω is both a race and a false religion.

The racial Jєω who sincerely converts to Christ and is baptized into Him is saved, and his racial curse is lifted, yet, he still remains a racial Jєω.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: 5MicrosoftOfficer7 on July 21, 2019, 10:35:57 PM
Jєω is both a race and a false religion.

The racial Jєω who sincerely converts to Christ and is baptized into Him is saved, and his racial curse is lifted, yet, he still remains a racial Jєω.
I kind of feel like you are a Black-Pilled edgelord. Cool, but I agree with the more moderate posters on this thread. God created all men in his image and likeness, he doesn't care what you look like or who your dad is. But to answer the original question that OP posed. I think it is a very dangerous place to be in if you identify yourself as a Ethno-nationalist. There were some bad people who were Ethno-nationalists. I do NOT agree with open borders or the importance of "diversity" but there is a difference with being conservative and being an ethno-nationalist. If you want to preserve your culture (I.E. western Culture) you convert whoever deserves to enter your country to it. You cant keep people out just because of their skin color or nation of origin. If they pose a threat due to their CULTURE or criminal background etc they shouldn't be let in. What i mean by threat to your culture is something like radical Islam, they want to make western civilization into a Medieval Hell-hole like Iraq currently or Iran. I am down with keeping that sort of threat out, but like I said before when you say ethno-nationalist I see a severe problem with that. Ethnicity or race should not be a decision making factor in a Catholic's mind. You have to look at the individual rather than a whole group.   
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Syracuse on September 28, 2019, 12:52:41 AM
(https://gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/009/205/289/original/f3ab0543eeb789bb.jpg?1569641914)
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 28, 2019, 01:48:19 AM
I’ve gotten more pro ethnonationalist in the past year.  IQ and cultural differences are real.  Yes all are equal in Christ, but that doesn’t preclude the reality of differences between people groups.  I think modern liberalism has a lot of influence here 
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: LaramieHirsch on September 28, 2019, 06:20:38 AM
" Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist? "

Yes, in fact, ethnos needs logos.



"Is it morally right to be an ethno-Nationalist? "

Not necessarily in and of itself.  There's good globalism and bad globalism.  There's good nationalism and bad nationalism.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 28, 2019, 09:18:44 PM
I kind of feel like you are a Black-Pilled edgelord. Cool, but I agree with the more moderate posters on this thread. God created all men in his image and likeness, he doesn't care what you look like or who your dad is. But to answer the original question that OP posed. I think it is a very dangerous place to be in if you identify yourself as a Ethno-nationalist. There were some bad people who were Ethno-nationalists. I do NOT agree with open borders or the importance of "diversity" but there is a difference with being conservative and being an ethno-nationalist. If you want to preserve your culture (I.E. western Culture) you convert whoever deserves to enter your country to it. You cant keep people out just because of their skin color or nation of origin. If they pose a threat due to their CULTURE or criminal background etc they shouldn't be let in. What i mean by threat to your culture is something like radical Islam, they want to make western civilization into a Medieval Hell-hole like Iraq currently or Iran. I am down with keeping that sort of threat out, but like I said before when you say ethno-nationalist I see a severe problem with that. Ethnicity or race should not be a decision making factor in a Catholic's mind. You have to look at the individual rather than a whole group.  
I haven't read this whole thread, but right now I think there's a balance.

One extreme: "Every individual in X group is bad/inferior/whatever."

Other extreme: "There are NO differences in any way, in ability or cultural capability between racial groups.  Everyone is the same."

I currently disagree with both extremes.  There are holy, intelligent, culturally compatible individuals in every group, but to say that there aren't averages, statistics, or that race has nothing to do with either, seems statistically naive to me.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Matto on September 29, 2019, 08:15:02 AM
I think one should love one's own people, more than other peoples as one loves one's own family more than other people as one's nation is akin to one's family. Of course one must love one's neighbors too from other nations. But as we tend to love people to different degrees we should love our own people to a higher degree than foreigners.

One thing I agreed with that E Michael Jones said is that he was not "white". He said white is a made up term from last century when people of different races moved out of their ethnic neighborhoods in cities to suburbia. He says he is half German and half Irish. So I am not "white". I am Slovak and Irish with some other European nationalities mixed in. One sad thing is as a modern American I learned very little about my Irish ancestors and almost nothing at all about my Slovak ancestors.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Cato on October 05, 2019, 08:23:44 PM
You think Heaven will be segregated, too?

Bishop Williamson said something to the effect “ You have more in common with your fellow traditional Catholic on Fiji than the man one house over.”
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: LaramieHirsch on October 05, 2019, 08:55:05 PM
You think Heaven will be segregated, too?
 
A VERY EXCELLENT question.  I have an answer.

And the kings of the earth shall bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates thereof shall not be shut by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.  Revelations 21:24-27


The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into Heaven.  "Nations."  Plural.  Many different groups of different peoples will bring their individual contributions---their glory and honor---into Heaven.  What happens after that, though?  I couldn't tell you.  But I CAN tell you that the diversity of the different peoples of the world is initially present.  Will God choose to meld us and have us cast away our earthly characteristics, or will He recognize and accept our individual characteristics?  I think the latter.  I do not think that God intends to transform His faithful into the Borg.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Cato on October 06, 2019, 01:36:37 AM

A VERY EXCELLENT question.  I have an answer.

And the kings of the earth shall bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates thereof shall not be shut by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.  Revelations 21:24-27


The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into Heaven.  "Nations."  Plural.  Many different groups of different peoples will bring their individual contributions---their glory and honor---into Heaven.  What happens after that, though?  I couldn't tell you.  But I CAN tell you that the diversity of the different peoples of the world is initially present.  Will God choose to meld us and have us cast away our earthly characteristics, or will He recognize and accept our individual characteristics?  I think the latter.  I do not think that God intends to transform His faithful into the Borg.
So, if a man belongs to the American nation, he might be standing between a black, latino, and filipino?  ‘Cause this is a pretty diverse nation.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: LaramieHirsch on October 06, 2019, 09:08:52 AM
So, if a man belongs to the American nation, he might be standing between a black, latino, and filipino?  ‘Cause this is a pretty diverse nation.
No, this is a very diverse EMPIRE.
The nation of "Americans" are white descendants of English colonists.  The Left has decided to wage an open war against this ethnicity until the very day comes when they are wiped out.  Just like in Hispanola, Rhodesia , and now South Africa.
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: Cato on October 06, 2019, 04:05:16 PM
No, this is a very diverse EMPIRE.
The nation of "Americans" are white descendants of English colonists.  The Left has decided to wage an open war against this ethnicity until the very day comes when they are wiped out.  Just like in Hispanola, Rhodesia , and now South Africa.
“The nation of "Americans" are white descendants of English colonists.”

...and God recognizes that political designation?  Other Anglo Saxons - UK English, Aussies, Canadians won’t be included?  In other words, He see “American” as the progeny of English settlers circa the 17th century? So in Heaven there will be an “American” section as you have defined?

Others (descendants of Irish, Africans, Scots, Italian, Poles, Greeks, Mexicans, Chinese, American Indians, Russians) will be duly categorized and sectioned off?  Mixed folks will have to jump from the Irish section to the Italian section, for example?

I’m not trying to antagonize you, just trying to understand your point. 
Title: Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
Post by: LaramieHirsch on October 06, 2019, 07:38:14 PM
“The nation of "Americans" are white descendants of English colonists.”

...and God recognizes that political designation?  Other Anglo Saxons - UK English, Aussies, Canadians won’t be included?  In other words, He see “American” as the progeny of English settlers circa the 17th century? So in Heaven there will be an “American” section as you have defined?

Others (descendants of Irish, Africans, Scots, Italian, Poles, Greeks, Mexicans, Chinese, American Indians, Russians) will be duly categorized and sectioned off?  Mixed folks will have to jump from the Irish section to the Italian section, for example?

I’m not trying to antagonize you, just trying to understand your point.


My point is only taxonomic.  There's a difference between the United States empire, and actual nations of people within an empire.  For example, the Cherokee Indians are a nation within the United States.  They have rights same as you and me.  But they are a nation---the Cherokee Nation.  Same for most other Indian tribes.  


Black people, also, are their own nation.  That's why they're so solid with each other.  It's easy for them to recognize their own kin.  And honestly, I think that North American descendants REALLY deserve their own sovereignty and country.  In fact, the blacks of The Nation of Islam would love nothing more than to have their own sovereign state.  They can afford to have this opinion because they're a solid organization with faithful members, and they have racial and religio-political ties to one another.


The nation that comprises the Americans is different from the Germans who migrated here in the mid-1850s.  And, just to be clear, I'm not a pure-blood guy.  I have some of that German blood in me.  Which means I'm only part of the original "American" stock.  I'm able to tell apart my English sensibilities from my German tendencies.  There used to be something recognized in this country called the Anglosphere.  And the idea of the WASP stems from this tradition.  But American identity has been almost completely destroyed throughout the 20th Century.  


So, okay, what happens to people from the United States when "the kings of the Earth bring the glory and honor" into the gates of Heaven?  Friend, I have absolutely NO IDEA.  America is a screwed up situation.  Firstly, we've never had a king.  Secondly, we're rooted in satanic Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.  How does God even view us collectively?  I simply don't know.  I actually fear that answer.  


Now, just to go back a bit in this thread, I originally said that, yes, you can be a Catholic Ethno-nationalist.  For example, consider the Flathead Indians who were converted into Catholicism.  Heck, remember Sitting Bull, a Lakota Soux chief.  Or Chief Black Elk of the Lakota (who had fascinating visions and prophecies).


But I want to make this clear: I do not advocate white nationalism.  I am not white nationalist.  I am not white supremacist.  Nor am I a white American nationalist, or a White American supremacist.  I am a monarchist.  And I believe that the only way to save this empire we know of called the United States is for it to become a Catholic Monarchy.  It's unfeasible, unrealistic, and is unlikely to ever happen.  But were it to happen, I think that the racial issues of North America would be resolved.  I wrote about it in the following essays:


* The Kingdom of Católica America Part 7a: Race (http://forge-and-anvil.com/2017/01/10/the-kingdom-of-catolica-america-part-7a-race/)
* The Kingdom of Católica America Part 7b: Race – How An American King Would Ideally Unify Us (http://forge-and-anvil.com/2017/02/22/the-kingdom-of-catolica-america-part-7b-race-how-an-american-king-would-ideally-unify-us/)
* The Kingdom of Católica America Part 7c: How a Catholic Monarch Would Deal With A Racist America (http://forge-and-anvil.com/2017/02/28/the-kingdom-of-catolica-america-part-7c-how-a-catholic-monarch-would-deal-with-a-racist-america/)



I'm a cosmopolitan guy.  That's just how I am.  (Seriously.  I'm actually so pluralistic in my personal life, it's cringe. (http://forge-and-anvil.com/2019/02/11/i-love-we-are-the-world/))  I'm an outsider who actually prefers foreign cultures and the company of internationals.  But that does not mean I turn off my mind and stop recognizing this race game pushed on the people of the United States.  I think Catholicism is the only thing that can fix this place.