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Author Topic: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist  (Read 3861 times)

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Offline MiserereMei

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Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2019, 08:32:51 AM »
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  • It’s is morally right to be an ethno-Nationalist? What does the church say about such beliefs?

    I’ve always considered myself one, but something in me is questioning it now. I’m wondering if it’s Christ reaching out to me. I could use some male  guidance in this area. If it is offensive to God, should I confess it? And should I make a public statement against it? I have spoken out about how we need to fight for European survival quite openly. That it is legitimate to want to preserve our culture above others. That by giving each culture their own country we can bring down crime rates, and stop Persecution of one race against another.
    In my opinion it is case specific. Look at Europe before the Reformation: different ethnicities bur one faith. Spain during the colonization of the Americas promoted marriage between Europeans and Americans but again under one faith. A different story is having different principles even from the same ethnicity.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
    « Reply #31 on: July 13, 2019, 09:00:19 AM »
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  • It’s is morally right to be an ethno-Nationalist? What does the church say about such beliefs?

    I’ve always considered myself one, but something in me is questioning it now. I’m wondering if it’s Christ reaching out to me. I could use some male  guidance in this area. If it is offensive to God, should I confess it? And should I make a public statement against it? I have spoken out about how we need to fight for European survival quite openly. That it is legitimate to want to preserve our culture above others. That by giving each culture their own country we can bring down crime rates, and stop Persecution of one race against another.
    Fighting for "European survival" is not about ethnicity.  European is not an ethnicity nor a culture.  French, German, Italian, etc. are individual distinct groups.  They all have their own languages, cultures and customs.  

    In the United States and Canada, people from various European countries have been inter-marrying for generations and there are many people who do not identify with any specific European culture.  Such people do not have an ethnicity or culture to preserve.

    In your last sentence you mention race.  You seem to use it interchangeably with ethnicity and culture, but it is not the same.  Race refers to physical characteristics such as skin colour.  People who share physical characteristics do not necessarily share a culture.  Historically, race was not a concept that was very important.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
    « Reply #32 on: July 13, 2019, 09:53:10 AM »
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  • While I agree that an ethno-state has always been the norm, there is teaching against ethno-sameness within the Church.  

    The account of Pentecost in Acts 2 emphasizes the ethnic diversity of the first Christians:
    "[6] And when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded in mind, because that every man heard them speak in his own tongue. [7] And they were all amazed, and wondered, saying: Behold, are not all these, that speak, Galileans? [8] And how have we heard, every man our own tongue wherein we were born? [9] Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[10] Phrygia, and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome,[11] Jєωs also, and proselytes, Cretes, and Arabians: we have heard them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God."

    We see an account of ethnic tension in the early Church in Acts 6:
    "And in those days, the number of the disciples increasing, there arose a murmuring of the Greeks against the Hebrews, for that their widows were neglected in the daily ministration."  This situation led to the appointment of deacons to oversee the fair treatment of all the ethnic groups.

    This passage in Galations refers to ethnic (not religious) distinctions when it says "Jєω nor Greek":
    "[26] For you are all the children of God by faith, in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jєω nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus."

    The Church is meant to be one people called out from among all nations of the earth.  The Latin word "ecclesia" was borrowed from the Greek words meaning "called out". Ethnic distinctions are meaningless to our status as Christians.

    I think that an ideal Christian state (not that any of us live in one of those) would care more about whether or not people were Christian than their ethnicity.
    .
    I don't take these verses and instances to be teachings against ethno-sameness.  Rather, they emphasize that what matters most is not ethnicity, but religion.  Taken in context (the infant, Aposotlic Church) was emerging from the Old Testament tradition which was very much centered and dependent on ethno-sameness.  Our Lord rebuked the Jєωs, though, for their slavish fetishistic commitment to the significance of their DNA and what He instituted was a new covenant in baptism and the Gospel, one which was intended for all nations rather than just one. 
    .
    Old habits die hard, and as a result we see the New Testament writers rebuking and instructing their flocks that in Christ, all are the same.  Your ethnicity doesn't win you any special favors with God.
    .
    That said, it has still been the habit of the Church since forever to respect ethnic composition and tradition.  Perhaps no better example of this is in her tolerance for liturgical traditions, especially those in the east (and even in the west prior to Quo Primum).  The Church molds her message for each unique population throughout history: St. John wrote his Gospel in Greek, The Jesuit missionaries learned the indigenous tongues, and so on.  Wherever she can, the Church respects the customs of ethnically ordered societies. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Paul FHC

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    Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
    « Reply #33 on: July 13, 2019, 10:28:06 AM »
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  • I am left with the impression that "ethno-nationalism" is a word that has been invented by a marxist. It portrays dirtily what is none other than simple patriotism, that is to say, love of one's fatherland.

    Fatherland, that is, nation, which comes from the latin word natus, meaning born, intrinsically implies the idea of a "people," a very large family, if you will.

    Love towards Fatherland is a good thing. In fact, St. Thomas says that Piety, which moves man to love God, moves him also to love his parents as well as his country (IIa IIae, Q. CI, AI).

    It follows that a man should prefer the members of his family to complete strangers, his fellow citizens to aliens.

    To apply this idea concretely,(I apologize in advance to any politically-correct Catholics on this thread) an American should not feel any obligation to invite aliens unconditionally into his country in order that they enjoy the fruits of the USA. We citizens could eventually have an obligation in charity to help our neighbours in times of true distress. We are not, however, obliged in Justice to allow Mexicans into our country only that they may enjoy a better life.

    "But the suffering!....."

    No.

    Mexicans may live in worse conditions than Americans, but they do not live in misery. The fact that some people be poor is not a crime crying out for vengeance.


    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
    « Reply #34 on: July 13, 2019, 12:10:28 PM »
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  • The short and sweet answer is yes.  You can be a Catholic and a Frenchman.  As long as Catholicism is first and foremost in your mind and heart, all is well.  If something French, in your mind, abrogates some Catholic dogma then you are in big trouble.

    It is even considered perfectly healthy to love your country and to pray for your country.

    Pretty simple concept when you think about it.


    Offline rosenley

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    Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
    « Reply #35 on: July 13, 2019, 02:29:29 PM »
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  • Catholicism permits ethnic determination/nationalization without the presence of these few concepts (generally):

    1) general racial superiority, and
    2) the elevation of race/culture over religion.

    The first concept is simple: claiming that, say, blacks are less human than whites violates the Catholic understanding of racial diversification (the sons of Noah and how they spread all the races of the world, hence making all races descended from Adam and Eve). However, it's not wrong to say that white cultures have had more success than black cultures, or that these black cultures were 'saved' or were 'in need' of principles that were present in white/European cultures — even claiming that non-white cultures should be thankful for whites and Catholics for removing the pagan elements of their culture.

    The elevation of race over religion includes the disregard for God and the natural monarchical order of heaven. For example, in some 19th century nationalist movements, Catholics would claim that the nation-state was superior to the spiritual 'state' of that nation. Supernatural elements of reality were made subordinate to the physical or natural aspects of the state's authority. In the case of race, specifically, it's the consideration of race before religion in cases where these two ideals may conflict. An excellent hypothetical example is a choice to allow a white daughter to marry a white non-Catholic over a black Catholic (rejecting the black Catholic is perfectly fine, in a non-hypothetically scenario).

    Of course, ethnic nationalism isn't the only ideology subject to this type of scrutiny. Maintain the superiority of Catholicism/God over all else, and your political ideologies should align within the bosom of Catholic teaching.
    "If the Revolution is disorder, the Counter-Revolution is the restoration of order. And by order we mean the peace of Christ in the Reign of Christ, that is, Christian civilization, austere and hierarchical, fundamentally sacral, antiegalitarian, and antiliberal." - Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira

    Offline Bas Congo V

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    Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
    « Reply #36 on: July 13, 2019, 03:40:11 PM »
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  • Quote
    Ethno-nationalism is good and a natural inclination for preserving a collective, homogenous people as exhibited by St. Paul [Romans 9:3-5 (Douay-Rheims)]. It's warranted by God. The scriptures further prove it in 2 Esdra 4. Read it.
    The Lord is as a man of war, Almighty is his name. ~ Exodus 15:3

    It is better to choose a commendable war than peace which separates from God. ~ St. Gregory

    Offline claudel

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    Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
    « Reply #37 on: July 14, 2019, 03:16:34 AM »
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  • Historically, race was not a concept that was very important.

    Precisely the opposite is true.

    In fact, until at least the 1950s, the word "race" was used in a far, far broader sense than it is now. For an especially vivid example, look at the speeches that Charles Lindbergh made in 1940 and 1941, when his America First movement had the support of more than 70 percent of the American people in its quest to keep this country out of the Jєωιѕн-instigated World War II. Lindbergh spoke frequently of the vindictive goals of the Jєωιѕн race on the one hand and, on the other, of the legitimate and sensible desire for peace of the several western and northern European races that then constituted the overwhelming bulk of the US populace. The Jєωιѕн-led campaign to condemn him and the bulk of the American people of those days as "evil racists" did not gain any traction till the late eighties, by which time the Jєωιѕн brainwashing program had had almost five decades of success under its belt.

    On a related subject, reparations, a topic near and dear to every Antifa activist's heart, see this linked article. Its author, here using a pseudonym, is a Traditional Catholic. He is also an ethnonationalist—that is, a patriot—and a man with no illusions as to the fate of white Christians once they have been completely disfranchised in the countries their ancestors built.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
    « Reply #38 on: July 14, 2019, 07:30:39 AM »
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  • Precisely the opposite is true.

    In fact, until at least the 1950s, the word "race" was used in a far, far broader sense than it is now. For an especially vivid example, look at the speeches that Charles Lindbergh made in 1940 and 1941, when his America First movement had the support of more than 70 percent of the American people in its quest to keep this country out of the Jєωιѕн-instigated World War II. Lindbergh spoke frequently of the vindictive goals of the Jєωιѕн race on the one hand and, on the other, of the legitimate and sensible desire for peace of the several western and northern European races that then constituted the overwhelming bulk of the US populace. The Jєωιѕн-led campaign to condemn him and the bulk of the American people of those days as "evil racists" did not gain any traction till the late eighties, by which time the Jєωιѕн brainwashing program had had almost five decades of success under its belt.

    On a related subject, reparations, a topic near and dear to every Antifa activist's heart, see this linked article. Its author, here using a pseudonym, is a Traditional Catholic. He is also an ethnonationalist—that is, a patriot—and a man with no illusions as to the fate of white Christians once they have been completely disfranchised in the countries their ancestors built.

    The ideas put forth in the linked article, are they specifically Catholic in your view? Because I'm not sure that the Church teaches that the Black races have a deficient IQ, as is put forth in the article. I have lived and worked among Blacks, and have not personally seen that they have a deficient IQ.

    I do agree that in the post cινιℓ ωαr era, how blacks were integrated into society should have been handled differently. In Mexico, for example, the Indians there were integrated early on into colonial society, and they were allowed to have government jobs, including teaching jobs. But then, Mexico was fully Catholic and treated its indigenous people pretty well, and the number of Blacks imported into Mexico was very small. Indians weren't thought of as being sub-standard. I think it was in the 1700's that one of the popes wrote a bull in which it said that the Indians in Mexico were not to be used as slaves.

    That being said, it's terrible that that media is promoting prejudice against whites, and white men in particular. It defies logic that some of those from third world countries want to come here for a better life, and then work against those who made/make a better life possible, by saying that white men cause all of the problems in society. That's what Hitler did to the Jєωs (apologies to the Hitler fans on the forum). I think that the media (and the illuminati that controls it) would love to start a cινιℓ ωαr based on race and supposed disenfranchisement of the other races. I have to hope that most Americans would have enough sense to oppose it.

    As far as the idea of race goes, I agree that race is important. The DNA testing organizations have grown a lot, since many people want to know what their genetic background is. Those of us whose ancestors come from England, Ireland and Scotland know how important it can be to have pride in one's race. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
    « Reply #39 on: July 14, 2019, 09:35:04 AM »
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  • Fighting for "European survival" is not about ethnicity.  European is not an ethnicity nor a culture.  French, German, Italian, etc. are individual distinct groups.  They all have their own languages, cultures and customs.  

    In the United States and Canada, people from various European countries have been inter-marrying for generations and there are many people who do not identify with any specific European culture.  Such people do not have an ethnicity or culture to preserve.

    In your last sentence you mention race.  You seem to use it interchangeably with ethnicity and culture, but it is not the same.  Race refers to physical characteristics such as skin colour.  People who share physical characteristics do not necessarily share a culture.  Historically, race was not a concept that was very important.
    I agree that the idea of a "white" race is a bit silly when speaking of Europe(although it makes more sense in America), as Europe is full of many different white ethnicities in their own homelands. A Spaniard wouldn't be happy to have Germans become a majority in his homeland, even though they're "white" too. In America it makes more sense since the European ethnicities and cultures have mixed, but in Europe it's better to speak in terms of individual ethnicities. Hence the term ethno-nationalism.

    But note I say ethnicity and not just culture. One's bloodline is very important. People of your ethnicity are effectively your extended family. In the past, before mass-immigration and the like, the people in your home-town were related to you as close as a couple generations back. Your relation to anyone in your country was a function of the geographical distance between you and them, but even in the farthest reaches you probably had a common ancestor not too many generations back. Whereas if you have an African for one neighbour and an Asian for another, your last common ancestor with any of them was probably 5,000 years ago. Even a Spaniard and a German as neighbours would have to go back at least 500 years. This familial relation between countrymen in an ethno-state(read: every country before the last 100 years, even in the great Empires the various ethnicities stuck to their own regions/provinces for the most part) is very important, as the family is the microcosm of the nation-state. Families comprise communities, communities comprise villages, towns and cities, and villages, towns and cities comprise nations. The term "fatherland" or "motherland" was very true and important in the past, for you were a child of your nation. With the government representing the parents, the King as the father and the Church as the mother. Nations were ordered in a natural hierarchy, and that's what gave them strength. Another thing you may note is that the word "nation" used to mean "people", and that's the way it's used in the Bible for example. England = the English nation = the English people. So ethnicity has always been the core of the nation, and it's not something that should just be waived away, as if replacing a country's populace would not harm it or destroy its identity as long as they spoke the same language and acted vaguely similar to the people they replaced.

    Now this is not to say that racial/ethnic discrimination on a personal level is moral. One should treat all mankind as their neighbour. Treating a person as lesser because they have a different culture or skin colour to you is wrong. But it is not wrong for a nation to wish to preserve its ethno-cultural make-up, and to limit immigration as necessary to achieve that. Immigration is a privilege, not a right, and so a nation has a right to stop or limit it for whatever reason it chooses.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
    « Reply #40 on: July 14, 2019, 09:40:54 AM »
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  • This passage in Galations refers to ethnic (not religious) distinctions when it says "Jєω nor Greek":
    "[26] For you are all the children of God by faith, in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jєω nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus."
    The part I've bolded and underlined should prove you're misunderstanding the verse, I'd imagine. Would you say that the only differences between men and women are superficial and that they are effectively interchangeable, as you assert with ethnicities? Not even feminist could quite asset that, as even they must recognise a man cannot give birth. So clearly, when the verse says "there is neither male or female", it does not mean to suggest that gender does not exist or does not matter. What it means is that men and women are equal under God. The verse is about how there is no longer a "chosen people" based off ethnicity as the Jєωs were before the Messiah. Christians are now the chosen people, whether they are men or women, Jєω or Greek or Apache or Chinese. That does not mean we should not recognise and celebrate ethnic differences - otherwise we'd to not recognise the differences between men and women, and we can see the madness that sort of thing's starting to cause in the modern world. 


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
    « Reply #41 on: July 14, 2019, 10:04:40 AM »
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  • Precisely the opposite is true.

    In fact, until at least the 1950s, the word "race" was used in a far, far broader sense than it is now.
    The modern concept of race was introduced as a part of "Enlightenment" ideology in the 18th century.  It has only been around for a couple of centuries.  It was not part of Catholic thinking but was associated with an anti-Catholic movement.  (Virtually every social evil of our time can be traced to "Enlightenment" philosophy.)  This is a relatively short period of time compared to the history of the Church which is why I said it was not historically important.  For most of Christian history it never even occurred to anyone to divide up humanity based on physical characteristics like skin or hair colour.  

    Magisterial teaching about race appears in Mit Brennender Sorge (1937) http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html

    8. Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds.

    We can see from this that the concept of race, while not intrinsically wrong, is capable of being distorted and perverted into something evil.

    Love of one's country is a good and patriotism has long been recognized as a virtue within Catholic thinking.  It is also good to honour one's ethnicity and culture.  But only up to a point.  When these things become a person's highest value, they take the place that rightfully belongs to God alone.  In that case, they have become a form of idolatry.

    Offline Bas Congo V

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    Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
    « Reply #42 on: July 14, 2019, 10:16:50 AM »
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  • Before the New Covenant, God gave salvation only to the early Hebrews who lived His Word. This fact proves that race matters. Two criteria needed to be met for salvation at that time:

    1) live the 10 Commandments, the Faith given to them by Abraham, the Mosaic Law
    2) you had to be a Hebrew

    Even the righteous Gentiles could not be saved at that time. They weren't Hebrew. This proves that race matters. It always mattered and it still matters. It's part of the ontological order set forth by God in His creation.
    The Lord is as a man of war, Almighty is his name. ~ Exodus 15:3

    It is better to choose a commendable war than peace which separates from God. ~ St. Gregory

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
    « Reply #43 on: July 14, 2019, 10:21:01 AM »
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  • The part I've bolded and underlined should prove you're misunderstanding the verse, I'd imagine. Would you say that the only differences between men and women are superficial and that they are effectively interchangeable, as you assert with ethnicities? 
    I have not asserted such a thing about ethnicities.  I have not said that the differences between ethnicities are superficial or that they are interchangeable.  I said that ethnicity does not matter within the Church.  It has no bearing on one's relationship with God nor the love that should exist between fellow believers.
    I am not misunderstanding the verse, but rather you have misunderstood my point.

    There are other contexts in which the differences between ethnicities are significant, just as there are contexts in which the differences between men and women are significant.  I certainly do not consider men and women to be interchangeable in general.

    Offline Bas Congo V

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    Re: Can you be Catholic and an Ethno-Nationalist
    « Reply #44 on: July 14, 2019, 10:23:43 AM »
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  • The Old Testament is the most ethno-nationalist book on the planet.

    Those with eyes to see & ears to hear understand this fact. Those who are honest will admit it.
    The Lord is as a man of war, Almighty is his name. ~ Exodus 15:3

    It is better to choose a commendable war than peace which separates from God. ~ St. Gregory