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Offline radtrad

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Can Catholics be American Patriots?
« on: August 30, 2009, 09:39:34 PM »
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  • I recently read this article, dated from 2003 when Seattle Catholic was still up and running.

    From New Advent, Civil Allegiance is discussed, which relates to this idea.

    How can traditional Catholics support a nation such as this?  Are we obliged to have allegiance to the US in light of it's anti-Christ society.  

    I remember talking with my sister about my disdain for McCain and how I didn't consider myself an American fanatic simply due to the culture of death.  She called me a socialist!  haha

    Anyway, regarding being a patriot and a loyal Catholic:
    I'd like some feedback.
    How Long O Lord... Habakuk 1:1


    Offline Maria-Bernada

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    Can Catholics be American Patriots?
    « Reply #1 on: August 30, 2009, 09:42:34 PM »
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  • Patriotism is overrated. In America, it was made popular by Americanists like Carroll, who supported the Revolution, and later on men like Ireland and Gibbons.

    Any flag-waving patriot in America is a suspected Freemason or supporter of Masonic principles.

    Catholics aren't patriotic for the Beast.
    "O Jesus, Jesus, I no longer feel my cross when I think of yours!"

    - St. Bernadette Soubirous


    Offline Raoul76

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    Can Catholics be American Patriots?
    « Reply #2 on: August 30, 2009, 11:11:38 PM »
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  • Maria-Bernarda, you are a woman after my own heart.

    Read in the "Crisis in the Church" section under the heading "The Purpose of Blogs" where Lover_of_Truth and I discuss this.

    I go to a sedevacantist Church that is highly patriotic, where atheists like Hamilton are praised in sermons.  I found this disturbing right from the get-go, but I repressed it because I figured it had nothing to do with the faith, with keeping the dogmas whole and entire.  I tend to sit in the Church, knowing what I know, and letting them wave the flag if they feel like it.

    But how can you see the Freemasonic takeover of Vatican II, and NOT see that this country was founded on the Freemasonic separation of Church and state as well as the Freemasonic principles of "liberty, equality, and fraternity"?  

    I have gone through panic attacks from time to time, fearing that my priests are Freemasons and that my baptism is invalid.  Believe it or not, I asked the priest who baptized me to his face if he were a Freemason and he gave me a timeline of his life that made it seem at the very least unlikely.  But anyone who sees the FULL truth, not only about the Church but about the various political conspiracies, is called "intense" or "nervous."  It feels like some form of mind-control.

    I have been in contact with a French sedevacantist priest and he doesn't praise Sarkozy or Le Pen -- he knows all sides are controlled, and so do ALL the French sedevacantists I've come across who have written on the Internet on sites like Mi Ca El?!  ( That's what it's called... )

    Why does no one know it here?  Is it an honest blind spot, is American patriotism just that seductive, are they worried no one will come to Church if they take away this one last illusion... Or is it something worse?  It is getting more and more alarming to me that people at my chapel routinely watch Fox News and probably think George W. Bush was better than Obama.  Today someone at Church praised the new Tarantino film except for the love scene in it:  "Jews killing Nazis," he said all aglow.  "Jews are against Christ," I responded with horror.  Is the sedevacantist movement in America somehow Judaized?

    I don't want to be too paranoid but, well, I am.  Maybe it is time, with some of these traditional priests, to force their hand and make them acknowledge this contradiction.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS

    Offline Maria-Bernada

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    Can Catholics be American Patriots?
    « Reply #3 on: August 30, 2009, 11:28:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76

    I go to a sedevacantist Church that is highly patriotic, where atheists like Hamilton are praised in sermons. I found this disturbing right from the get-go, but I repressed it because I figured it had nothing to do with the faith, with keeping the dogmas whole and entire. I tend to sit in the Church, knowing what I know, and letting them wave the flag if they feel like it.


    Quote from: Raoul76
    But how can you see the Freemasonic takeover of Vatican II, and NOT see that this country was founded on the Freemasonic separation of Church and state as well as the Freemasonic principles of "liberty, equality, and fraternity"?


    A better question is how can you attend a chapel where you admit that their is Americanism and praising of non-Catholics at the pulpit? Can't you see you're guilty of sins of omission?

    Quote from: Raoul76
    I have gone through panic attacks from time to time, fearing that my priests are Freemasons and that my baptism is invalid.  Believe it or not, I asked the priest who baptized me to his face if he were a Freemason and he gave me a timeline of his life that made it seem at the very least unlikely.  But anyone who sees the FULL truth, not only about the Church but about the various political conspiracies, is called "intense" or "nervous."  It feels like some form of mind-control.


    Your priests probably are Freemasons, or at least Masonic sympathizers. But you only have to worry about invalid baptism if you believe interior intention matters. But the Church has declared that even pagans and Jews can baptize. Do you believe pagans or Jews have any true personal motive of removing the stain of original sin?
    "O Jesus, Jesus, I no longer feel my cross when I think of yours!"

    - St. Bernadette Soubirous

    Offline Raoul76

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    Can Catholics be American Patriots?
    « Reply #4 on: August 31, 2009, 12:30:24 AM »
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  • Quote
    A better question is how can you attend a chapel where you admit that their is Americanism and praising of non-Catholics at the pulpit? Can't you see you're guilty of sins of omission?


    First of all, my priest has not said anything from the pulpit at my chapel praising an American leader.  If he did I would get up and walk out -- but go back the next week.  I just happen to know that some of the priests affiliated with this organization do praise them.

    That being said, if you know of somewhere else I can go, please inform me.  Unless it's SSPX.  Why do I suddenly get the feeling you are SSPX?  I know the devil is trying to get me into SSPX by playing off my obession with conspiracies, which SSPX excel in.  The problem is that "una cum" breaks with two dogmas:  Infallibility and indefectibility.

    Anyway, I disagree that I am committing "sins of omission."  Listening to a sermon does not involve you in sin, and the political opinions of the priests do not automatically become those of the men in the pews.  

    People within the Church have varying political opinions.  Political opinions, even political FACTS, have never been dogma.  The Popes of the last three hundred years were against the separation of Church and state but you will notice they didn't give a blanket condemnation of America, nor of the various European republics.   In fact, I've read a book where Pope Pius IX called George Washington "a great man."  That was his erroneous opinion; he wasn't teaching on matters of faith.

    All we must do is be mentally against the separation of Church and state to stay out of heresy.  Yes, to be patriotic would seem to be a sin against this dogma.  But the liturgy of the Mass makes no allowance for patriotism.  It is just the Mass.  The American sedevacantists who are mistakenly patriotic still provide the true Mass, just as many American and European priests before Vatican II, who were mistakenly patriotic -- and many French Catholics continued to love France even after it became a republic -- offered the true Mass.

    Also, I cannot assume that just because a priest is patriotic, that he's a proponent of the separation of Church and state.  People love America for all kinds of different reasons.  Irish Catholics love it because it was once a refuge from Protestant England.  I'm Polish and I know many Polish people see this place as a refuge from communism.  Yeah, they're mistaken, we're run by the exact same communists who took over Poland.   But it's not a sin to be mistaken about a confusing political issue.

    The Church, since it exists in so many countries, has never had uniform political agreement among its members.  What if I lived in England at the time of a war between France and England, when both countries were Catholic?  Let's say that in this war England was the aggressor and therefore the French were in the right.  But my priest was defending the English king.  I would disagree with him on the principle of just war, being on the side of the French in my heart.  But my priest, mistaken political opinions and all, would still be a priest.

    If they are Freemasons, I need more proof than what I have.  But no one has ever accused them of such and the sedevacantist world is a very small one.  I strongly doubt they'd be able to hide their memberships in a Lodge.

    Quote
    But you only have to worry about invalid baptism if you believe interior intention matters.


    It is a dogma that for a baptism to be valid there must be matter, form and intention.  My priest would have to be truly evil to INTEND to take me to hell as he's baptizing me. But in these times, anything is possible.  

    God will protect me, and reveal what needs to be revealed in time.  If he promised His apostles that they would not sink in the water, I must believe His promise also holds good for me.  If necessary, I will be conditionally re-baptized.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS


    Offline Maria-Bernada

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    Can Catholics be American Patriots?
    « Reply #5 on: August 31, 2009, 01:57:43 AM »
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  • Quote
    First of all, my priest has not said anything from the pulpit at my chapel praising an American leader.  If he did I would get up and walk out -- but go back the next week.


    What is your reason for walking out? And why do you return the following week?

    Quote
    I just happen to know that some of the priests affiliated with this organization do praise them.


    Do the priests who you receive sacraments associate with Americanists or other non-Catholics?

    Quote
    That being said, if you know of somewhere else I can go, please inform me.


    No, I'm not aware of any.

    Quote
    Why do I suddenly get the feeling you are SSPX?


    No. I don't think you read my entire "warning about modern authors" before praising it.

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    I know the devil is trying to get me into SSPX by playing off my obession with conspiracies, which SSPX excel in.


    You got that right! Stay away from the SSPX.

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    The problem is that "una cum" breaks with two dogmas: Infallibility and indefectibility.


    I don't know about that. But it does deny that fact that Catholics are forbidden to pray in communion with non-Catholics.

    Quote
    Anyway, I disagree that I am committing "sins of omission." Listening to a sermon does not involve you in sin, and the political opinions of the priests do not automatically become those of the men in the pews.


    1) Listening to a sermon does not involve you in sin? Ever? If a priest gave a sermon and preached heresy, and you said absolutely nothing, are you guilty of sin? Yes or no? Why or why not?

    2) If a priest preaches a heretical opinion relating to politics (yes, there are dogmas relating to politics. Contrary to what some people say, the Church does involve Herself in politics), that doesn't necessarily mean everyone in the pews agree with him. This is true. But do you deny that every person in the pew who sits there and doesn't say anything when this happens is guilty?

    Quote
    People within the Church have varying political opinions. Political opinions, even political FACTS, have never been dogma.


    The opinion that Talmudic Judaism should be the official religion of the state is a political opinion. Would you say that someone who holds this political opinion is a Catholic?

    Quote
    The Popes of the last three hundred years were against the separation of Church and state but you will notice they didn't give a blanket condemnation of America, nor of the various European republics.


    This is because they were evil and cared more about temporal peace.

    Quote
    In fact, I've read a book where Pope Pius IX called George Washington "a great man."


    Didn't you just say something in another thread about trusting certain authors? What book was this? And when did Pius IX allegedly say this? Was it in a public document?

    Quote
    The American sedevacantists who are mistakenly patriotic still provide the true Mass, just as many American and European priests before Vatican II, who were mistakenly patriotic -- and many French Catholics continued to love France even after it became a republic -- offered the true Mass.


    The SSPX offers the "true mass". The FSSP also offers the "true mass". And the "Traditionalist" priests down the street from you and me also offer the "true mass". But when the priest is not a Catholic, you don't attend his true mass.

    Quote
    Also, I cannot assume that just because a priest is patriotic, that he's a proponent of the separation of Church and state.


    It would depend on their level of "patriotism" I suppose. The "patriotism" of Ireland, Gibbons, and Carroll was heretical. It also depends on how you define "patriotism", which is usually defined as a devotion to ones country. What true Catholic has any devotion to a Judeo-Masonic, anti-papacy, anti-Catholic, "Enlightened" republic? Just how "patriotic" were the true French Catholics under the "Enlightened" French Republic, when priests were forced out of the country and nuns were being raped and guillotined? I wonder, how "patriotic" and devoted to their country the non-Muslims are in Syria and Somalia?

    Quote
    The Church, since it exists in so many countries, has never had uniform political agreement among its members.


    In non-essentials.

    Quote
    What if I lived in England at the time of a war between France and England, when both countries were Catholic?  Let's say that in this war England was the aggressor and therefore the French were in the right.  But my priest was defending the English king.  I would disagree with him on the principle of just war, being on the side of the French in my heart.  But my priest, mistaken political opinions and all, would still be a priest.


    There have always been disputes over what constitutes as a "just war". But if your priest is publicly preaching immorality, then you stay away from him and warn others.

    Quote
    If they are Freemasons, I need more proof than what I have.  But no one has ever accused them of such and the sedevacantist world is a very small one.


    And the Catholic world is even smaller.

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    I strongly doubt they'd be able to hide their memberships in a Lodge.


    Why? Do you believe crypto-Masonic priests just leave their initiation cards laying around or something?  :laugh1:

    Quote
    It is a dogma that for a baptism to be valid there must be matter, form and intention.  My priest would have to be truly evil to INTEND to take me to hell as he's baptizing me. But in these times, anything is possible.


    It is indeed a dogma that there must be a valid form, matter, and intention for every sacrament. The form and matter of the sacrament of baptism (water and the words "I baptize thee in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost") have been dogmatically defined. What is meant by "intention" has not been dogmatically defined. For centuries there have been conflicting opinions.

    You didn't respond to the point I made after the sentence you quoted, about pagans (who don't even believe in original sin) who can validly baptize, which proves the "personal motive" position illogical. You didn't answer my question either.

    I pray that I've said all that I have said (and asked all that I have asked) with sincerity and charity.
    "O Jesus, Jesus, I no longer feel my cross when I think of yours!"

    - St. Bernadette Soubirous

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Can Catholics be American Patriots?
    « Reply #6 on: August 31, 2009, 02:16:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: radtrad
    How can traditional Catholics support a nation such as this?  Are we obliged to have allegiance to the US in light of it's anti-Christ society.


    Blindly "supporting a nation" and the virtue of patriotism are not exactly the same thing.
    + Vincit veritas +

    Offline Maria-Bernada

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    Can Catholics be American Patriots?
    « Reply #7 on: August 31, 2009, 02:22:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis

    ...virtue of patriotism...


    What exactly did they teach you at SGG?

    I find it strange that this is so enthusiastically taught in all 1950's American catechisms.
    "O Jesus, Jesus, I no longer feel my cross when I think of yours!"

    - St. Bernadette Soubirous


    Offline Maria-Bernada

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    Can Catholics be American Patriots?
    « Reply #8 on: August 31, 2009, 02:25:52 AM »
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  • I believe there's a difference between patriotism and love of one's country (although I guess you'd have to define "country"!)

    You can (and should) love your enemies. But how many people would say they are devoted to their enemies?
    "O Jesus, Jesus, I no longer feel my cross when I think of yours!"

    - St. Bernadette Soubirous

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Can Catholics be American Patriots?
    « Reply #9 on: August 31, 2009, 04:45:09 AM »
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  • Quote from: Maria-Bernada
    Quote from: gladius_veritatis

    ...virtue of patriotism...

    What exactly did they teach you at SGG?


    Patriotism is a virtue.  It is a part of justice.  You may read about it below, as well as in the excellent work titled Framework of a Christian State, by Fr Cahill, SJ.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15472a.htm

    Justice

    Justice, an essentially moral virtue, regulates man in relations with his fellow-men. It disposes us to respect the rights of others, to give each man his due. (See JUSTICE.) Among the virtues annexed to justice are:

        * religion, which regulates man in his relations to God, disposing him to pay due worship to his Creator;
        * piety, which disposes to the fulfillment of duties which one owes to parents and country (patriotism);
        * gratitude, which inclines one to recognition of benefits received;
        * liberality, which restrains the immoderate affection for wealth from withholding seasonable gifts or expenses;
        * affability, by which one is suitably adapted to his fellow-men in social intercourse so as to behave toward each appropriately.

    All these moral virtues, as well as justice itself, regulate man in his dealings with others. But besides these there are moral virtues which regulate man with regard to his own inner passions. Now there are passions which impel man to desire that which reason impels him forward; hence there are principally two moral virtues, namely, temperance and fortitude, whose function it is to regulate those lower appetites.
    + Vincit veritas +

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Can Catholics be American Patriots?
    « Reply #10 on: August 31, 2009, 04:50:06 AM »
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  • Quote from: radtrad
    Are we obliged to have allegiance to the US in light of it's anti-Christ society.


    Go read about the Roman martyrs, etc.  If your mother is a pagan, do you still owe her a debt of gratitude, filial obedience, devotion, etc?  Yes.
    + Vincit veritas +


    Offline Maria-Bernada

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    Can Catholics be American Patriots?
    « Reply #11 on: August 31, 2009, 04:54:24 AM »
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  • You could argue that patriotism is a virtue if that's how you define patriotism. Fulfilling one's "duties" (this word too needs to be clarified) and due obedience. But that's not necessarily what is understood as "patriotism" amongst Americans.
    "O Jesus, Jesus, I no longer feel my cross when I think of yours!"

    - St. Bernadette Soubirous

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Can Catholics be American Patriots?
    « Reply #12 on: August 31, 2009, 04:55:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: Maria-Bernada
    Patriotism is overrated.


    The bogus version of it does tend to leave a bad taste in peoples' mouths, as it is mis/used to inspire all kinds of foul deeds.  However, there is a virtue known as patriotism.  I did not learn about it at sgg.org/cult, btw, although that is a nice attempt at a dig :wink:.  I learned about it by reading Fr Cahill, SJ (and others), whose orthodoxy, etc., cannot be gainsaid.
    + Vincit veritas +

    Offline Maria-Bernada

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    Can Catholics be American Patriots?
    « Reply #13 on: August 31, 2009, 04:56:49 AM »
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  • Gladius,

    Do you have a devotion to Joseph Ratzinger?
    "O Jesus, Jesus, I no longer feel my cross when I think of yours!"

    - St. Bernadette Soubirous

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Can Catholics be American Patriots?
    « Reply #14 on: August 31, 2009, 04:56:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: Maria-Bernada
    But that's not necessarily what is understood as "patriotism" amongst Americans.


    But the way to solve the problem is not to chuck the term just because abused by demagogues, etc, but reclaim it in its true sense, no?
    + Vincit veritas +

     

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