Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?  (Read 8161 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 13199
  • Reputation: +8313/-2572
  • Gender: Male
Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2018, 12:57:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Paul VI's heretical status is irrelevant.

    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
    « Reply #61 on: July 23, 2018, 02:22:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Paul VI's heretical status is irrelevant.
    Ok, I'll take that as your answer.  So, heretic Paul VI took over the Church and taught major error in matters of faith and morals replacing nearly all Masses with fake ones, but the Church and Pope are still infallible? 
    If Paul VI was an heretic and destroyed the Mass as you say, was he infallible when he did this?  


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13199
    • Reputation: +8313/-2572
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
    « Reply #62 on: July 23, 2018, 03:22:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    So, heretic Paul VI took over the Church and taught major error in matters of faith and morals replacing nearly all Masses with fake ones, but the Church and Pope are still infallible?
    I know my olive tree analogy was pretty lame, but I thought it was clear that my contention is that the liturgy that Paul VI approved was NOT the liturgy that was put into place by 95% of the freemasonic bishops.  So, no, Paul VI did not "replace nearly all masses with fake ones".  The freemasonic bishops did and since the bishops don't have authority to do so, they aren't protected by the Holy Ghost from error.

    Secondly, I've never said that the NO was fake.  I said it was extremely doubtful.  In many cases, it is a fake, but we don't know when, where or by whom, because it is dependent upon the priest's personal intention...which no one (except God and him) know.  There is no way to know, by external measures, if a NO is valid.  Therefore, you must act as if it's doubtful, because the doubt is too great.

    Quote
    If Paul VI was an heretic and destroyed the Mass as you say, was he infallible when he did this?
    The question doesn't even make any sense.  A pope's heretical status is dependent upon his PERSONAL beliefs, while his actions of authority are EXTERNAL acts.  They don't have to be connected.  A heretical pope could proclaim somone as canonized, even if he didn't believe it, because his authority as pope, if he uses such authority, is protected from error by the Holy Ghost (in certain circuмstances).

    Further, one could make the argument that Paul VI's constitution which created the NO was not an infallible act, because he did not bind any of the faithful to accept, use or attend his new mass.  If something is optional, then how can it be infallible?  Infallible means "without error"; how can something optional be "without error"?  Makes no sense.

    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
    « Reply #63 on: July 23, 2018, 03:44:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I know my olive tree analogy was pretty lame, but I thought it was clear that my contention is that the liturgy that Paul VI approved was NOT the liturgy that was put into place by 95% of the freemasonic bishops.  So, no, Paul VI did not "replace nearly all masses with fake ones".  The freemasonic bishops did and since the bishops don't have authority to do so, they aren't protected by the Holy Ghost from error.

    Secondly, I've never said that the NO was fake.  I said it was extremely doubtful.  In many cases, it is a fake, but we don't know when, where or by whom, because it is dependent upon the priest's personal intention...which no one (except God and him) know.  There is no way to know, by external measures, if a NO is valid.  Therefore, you must act as if it's doubtful, because the doubt is too great.
    The question doesn't even make any sense.  A pope's heretical status is dependent upon his PERSONAL beliefs, while his actions of authority are EXTERNAL acts.  They don't have to be connected.  A heretical pope could proclaim somone as canonized, even if he didn't believe it, because his authority as pope, if he uses such authority, is protected from error by the Holy Ghost (in certain circuмstances).

    Further, one could make the argument that Paul VI's constitution which created the NO was not an infallible act, because he did not bind any of the faithful to accept, use or attend his new mass.  If something is optional, then how can it be infallible?  Infallible means "without error"; how can something optional be "without error"?  Makes no sense.
    I largely agree with the first part.  The only thing I complained about is that people say the NO is absolutely evil, or not a Mass.  We don't know that.  The next question I posed makes great sense, because if Paul VI and later JPII and Benedict XVI did the NO, put bishops in authority to ordain priests to do the NO, then the NO comes from the top. These Popes reigned, doing what the Church does, that is, the NO, during their reign, proving the NO was covered by the authority of the Church.  This never covers for sacrileges done by priests or bishops of course. The NO can't possibly be intrinsically evil, or even doubtful, in and of itself, or Church authority erred by doing the NO.  And that is not possible. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13199
    • Reputation: +8313/-2572
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
    « Reply #64 on: July 23, 2018, 04:23:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    The NO can't possibly be intrinsically evil, or even doubtful, in and of itself, or Church authority erred by doing the NO.  And that is not possible.
    Yes, it can be, and absolutely is, doubtful.  If you disagree, then you're saying Cardinal Ottaviani and Bacci are idiots.

    What about all the V2 theologians who admit that the NO's theology is different from Trent?  Does that not matter?

    You keep missing the point that the NO liturgy said in the dioceses IS NOT what Paul VI approved.  Does that make Paul VI guilty, for his silence and lack of action to correct the evil liturgy which was being said everywhere?  Absolutely.  Does that mean the Church "failed"?  Not at all.

    There have been numerous clerics who complained, from day 1, that the NO was wrong and was not in accordance with "the spirit of Vatican 2".  Lots of people knew that liberties were being taken with the new missal, and such liberties were sacriligeous and, in many cases, invalided it.  But "officially" the Church did not authorize these liberties, so they don't come from the Church, but from bad bishops and priests.  The pope is obviously guilty of not clearing out these evil clerics (and that's a grave, grave sin), and he's guilty of not stopping their sacrileges, but he didn't OFFICIALLY authorize this false liturgy, so it is not "from the Church".  ...at least, that's one way to look at it.


    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
    « Reply #65 on: July 23, 2018, 04:41:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, it can be, and absolutely is, doubtful.  If you disagree, then you're saying Cardinal Ottaviani and Bacci are idiots.

    What about all the V2 theologians who admit that the NO's theology is different from Trent?  Does that not matter?

    You keep missing the point that the NO liturgy said in the dioceses IS NOT what Paul VI approved.  Does that make Paul VI guilty, for his silence and lack of action to correct the evil liturgy which was being said everywhere?  Absolutely.  Does that mean the Church "failed"?  Not at all.

    There have been numerous clerics who complained, from day 1, that the NO was wrong and was not in accordance with "the spirit of Vatican 2".  Lots of people knew that liberties were being taken with the new missal, and such liberties were sacriligeous and, in many cases, invalided it.  But "officially" the Church did not authorize these liberties, so they don't come from the Church, but from bad bishops and priests.  The pope is obviously guilty of not clearing out these evil clerics (and that's a grave, grave sin), and he's guilty of not stopping their sacrileges, but he didn't OFFICIALLY authorize this false liturgy, so it is not "from the Church".  ...at least, that's one way to look at it.
    If you're saying the NO is intrinsically evil, you're saying the Pope either isn't infallible, or the Church erred in saying he is.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13199
    • Reputation: +8313/-2572
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
    « Reply #66 on: July 23, 2018, 04:49:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't think you know what 'intrinsically' means.  I keep saying 'doubtful'; you keep saying 'intrinsically'.  2 totally different things.

    Secondly, do you understand what I mean when I say that Paul VI approved of liturgy A, but no one uses liturgy A, but an "abuse filled" liturgy B?  It doesn't sound like you do.

    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
    « Reply #67 on: July 23, 2018, 04:56:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't think you know what 'intrinsically' means.  I keep saying 'doubtful'; you keep saying 'intrinsically'.  2 totally different things.

    Secondly, do you understand what I mean when I say that Paul VI approved of liturgy A, but no one uses liturgy A, but an "abuse filled" liturgy B?  It doesn't sound like you do.
    I know exactly what intrinsically means.  You continue to doubt, that's up to you.  
    Yes, I know Paul VI approved of liturgy A as you put it, but nobody uses liturgy A.  Then that means that subsequent Popes who did the NO liturgy B were heretics, in error and not infallible.  


    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11528
    • Reputation: +6479/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
    « Reply #68 on: July 23, 2018, 05:06:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Some of what you say doesn't make sense. Pope Francis when he was Cardinal Bergoglio went out of his way to help the SSPX in ways that no North American would even consider doing. Making friends with the unbeliever is the beginning of creating an ambiance that is conducive to their conversion.
    Who are the unbelievers you are referring to here poche?

    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
    « Reply #69 on: July 23, 2018, 06:38:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Pax, these are statements you've made:

    Just because it's *possible* that a eucharistic miracle happened, doesn't mean God approves of the novus ordo.  Remember, the novus ordo is not a mass, but at best, a eucharistic ceremony.

    The novus ordo's purpose is NOT FOR GOD, it is to destroy the idea of sacrifice and replace it with the "sacrifice" of the eucharist, which is protestantism.

    The NO is NOT essentially or superficially perfect because no one has ever SEEN a perfect NO.  It’s a unicorn; a fantasy; a fable told by Freemasons

    The NO that Pope Paul VI approved never made it to 95% of the dioceses and still hasn't, 50 years later.  This means that the NO in 95% of parishes, in the entire latin world, for the last 50 years, is NOT APPROVED BY THE CHURCH.

    We can't make excuses for those in the NO; on the contrary, we must tell them THE NO IS WRONG AND SINFUL, so that they will refuse the false mass and accept the True one.

    I agree that the "theoretical" NO which Paul VI made was "technically" ok, but as Card Ottaviani pointed out, it could very well NOT be ok, due to a whole list of problems and land mines.  But the mass that Card Ottaviani studied was NOT the one that was given to the laity by the freemasonic/communistic Bishops and priests.  The one rolled out on the red carpet to the people was a corruption of a corruption.  Paul VI's "pure" NO was a corruption of the True Mass and the protestant version (which most see) is a corruption of that.  Just like the 3rd sickly, GMO tree was a corruption of an already corrupted hybrid tree.  

    Paul VI's heretical status is irrelevant.

    The question doesn't even make any sense.  A pope's heretical status is dependent upon his PERSONAL beliefs, while his actions of authority are EXTERNAL acts.  They don't have to be connected.  A heretical pope could proclaim somone as canonized, even if he didn't believe it, because his authority as pope, if he uses such authority, is protected from error by the Holy Ghost (in certain circuмstances).

    Further, one could make the argument that Paul VI's constitution which created the NO was not an infallible act, because he did not bind any of the faithful to accept, use or attend his new mass.  If something is optional, then how can it be infallible?  Infallible means "without error"; how can something optional be "without error"?  Makes no sense.

    You keep missing the point that the NO liturgy said in the dioceses IS NOT what Paul VI approved.  Does that make Paul VI guilty, for his silence and lack of action to correct the evil liturgy which was being said everywhere?  Absolutely.  Does that mean the Church "failed"?  Not at all.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I get a sense you don't know what you believe.  You suggest the NO is intrinsically evil while saying it is only doubtful.  You said it destroys the Faith. Isn't that intrinsically evil?  You insist no one should not attend NO because Cardinals said it was doubtful, suggesting you follow Cardinals rather than Popes. You call it a communion service not a Mass. That's not doubtful, that's an impostor and intrinsically evil. You suggest that somehow, even though Popes have done the NO for years, they remain infallible, yet they in erred in matters of faith and are not infallible for doing/promoting the NO since it is doubtful and destroys the Faith. Even if you didn't trust a particular Pope, there are several since Paul VI who continued to do the NO after that.  And now you say that there are two NOs as if the Popes along the way didn't actually do the one you say isn't even a Mass.  Subsequent Popes not only approved the NO they practiced, they participated and promoted it and defended it.  The buck has to stop somewhere--are all those Popes still infallible? You even suggest in the last of the statements above that Paul VI was guilty of silence and lack of action... as though he had not actually erred.  That's a cheap shot.  Paul VI wanted the NO, promoted it, watched it launch, and left it to legacy.  If the NO practiced in most of the Church since Paul VI (whom you called a heretic) is not Mass, then the subsequent Popes since and including Paul VI are all heretics for allowing an even worse Mass to take over.  That would make them all destroyers of the Faith, outside the Church for heresy, practicing false liturgies and way fallible.  Now, either the last several Popes erred in an epic way proving they were not infallible, (which means the Church isn't the true Church).  Or, none were Popes which makes those who believe they weren't popes, sedes.  Or...the NO is enough of a Mass to bring the Blessed Sacrament to men.

    If the epic failure of the post conciliar Popes and error of the Church to stop a fake communion services masquerading as a mass for > than 50 years doesn't affect the promise of infallibility, then nothing could and the promise of it is meaningless.  

    It simply isn't possible for a Pope to introduce a Mass that isn't really a Mass into the Church, then leave it as a legacy of some sort, where subsequent Popes continued that legacy, but that doesn't affect infallibility.  Not possible.      

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13199
    • Reputation: +8313/-2572
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
    « Reply #70 on: July 23, 2018, 07:44:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    Yes, I know Paul VI approved of liturgy A as you put it, but nobody uses liturgy A.  Then that means that subsequent Popes who did the NO liturgy B were heretics, in error and not infallible. 
    If JPII didn't use the approved liturgy, but instead, the doubtful liturgy B, that doesn't mean he's a heretic, or not infallible.  It just means he used a doubtfully valid mass, and would've committed a sin for doing so.  He could've used liturgy A in private...we don't know.  It has nothing to do with infallibility because no pope has said that liturgy B is approved.


    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
    « Reply #71 on: July 23, 2018, 07:56:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If JPII didn't use the approved liturgy, but instead, the doubtful liturgy B, that doesn't mean he's a heretic, or not infallible.  It just means he used a doubtfully valid mass, and would've committed a sin for doing so.  He could've used liturgy A in private...we don't know.  It has nothing to do with infallibility because no pope has said that liturgy B is approved.
    Oh dear.  So, Mass being a matter of faith, and the Pope contradicts that Faith by doing a false or doubtfully valid Mass, and promotes others to do that Mass, and passes that Mass along without condemning it, then infallibility is shot.  What you propose denies the credibility of the Church and the infallibility of the Pope.      

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13199
    • Reputation: +8313/-2572
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
    « Reply #72 on: July 23, 2018, 08:25:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    I get a sense you don't know what you believe.  

    I know exactly what I believe.  The key is to make distinctions between the NO that was approved (liturgy A) and the "diocesan" one that is everywhere corrupted by freemasons (liturgy B).  They are not the same.


    Quote
    You suggest the NO is intrinsically evil while saying it is only doubtful.  You said it destroys the Faith. Isn't that intrinsically evil?  

    The non-approved, liturgy B destroys one's faith because it's VERY doubtful, said by a VERY doubtfully ordained priest, and also because 95% of the time, the atmosphere is scandalous, irreverent and sacrilegious.  It's also illegal, which makes it sinful.  It's not intrinsically evil because of the 5% chance that a real priest (which most aren't) says it reverently and has the proper intention.


    Quote
    You insist no one should not attend NO because Cardinals said it was doubtful, suggesting you follow Cardinals rather than Popes. 

    The pope ordered Cardinals Ottaviani, Bacci etc to study the NO.  Their conclusions were done on behalf of Paul VI.  

    Secondly, again, the approved liturgy A is probably not doubtful, because the main change was saying it in the vernacular language.  Most everything else is the same as the TLM.  The problem is the un-approved liturgy B...this is VERY doubtful for a whole bunch of reasons.



    Quote
    You call it a communion service not a Mass. That's not doubtful, that's an impostor and intrinsically evil. 

    The unapproved liturgy B is doubtfully a mass.  The offertory and canon prayers are woefully deficient.  For the 2,000th time!  It's all about DOUBT.  I'm not saying anything for certain, except that it's atmosphere and legality are sinful...this much is certain.  The validity question is unknown.  It depends on each and every priest and each and every mass.


    Quote
    You suggest that somehow, even though Popes have done the NO for years, they remain infallible, yet they in erred in matters of faith and are not infallible for doing/promoting the NO since it is doubtful and destroys the Faith. 

    Popes can err privately and still be infallible officially.  Popes have their governmental office (which has nothing to do with infallibility) and their teaching office (which has to do with faith/morals and infallibility).  No post-V2 pope has ever said, infallibly, that the NO is ok, or must be attended.  Therefore, it remains optional.  There is no such thing as an infallible, but optional, teaching.  That's a contradiction.


    Quote
    Even if you didn't trust a particular Pope, there are several since Paul VI who continued to do the NO after that.  And now you say that there are two NOs as if the Popes along the way didn't actually do the one you say isn't even a Mass.  Subsequent Popes not only approved the NO they practiced, they participated and promoted it and defended it.  The buck has to stop somewhere--are all those Popes still infallible? 

    Pope Benedict said that the consecration in english was wrong when it said "for all".  How many years was it wrong - 40?  So for 40 years all those masses were invalid.  Is that the pope's fault, or the bishops and priests, who wanted to corrupt the faith and destroy the mass?  The pope wasn't the one saying all those masses - the bishops and priests were.  Can he be everywhere at once?  Put the blame where it belongs - on the clergy, but not on the OFFICIAL liturgy A.  Should popes Paul and JPII have corrected this sooner?  Surely, but that's between them and God.  


    Quote
    You even suggest in the last of the statements above that Paul VI was guilty of silence and lack of action... as though he had not actually erred.  That's a cheap shot.  Paul VI wanted the NO, promoted it, watched it launch, and left it to legacy.  If the NO practiced in most of the Church since Paul VI (whom you called a heretic) is not Mass, then the subsequent Popes since and including Paul VI are all heretics for allowing an even worse Mass to take over.  

    I never said Paul VI was a heretic.  You continue to put words in my mouth.

    It MIGHT be a mass; it also MIGHT NOT be.  It's a mass of a bunch of doubts.  Do you understand the meaning of the word "doubt"?

    The post-V2 popes may be heretics for a variety of reasons.  It's not my place to determine.  The facts speak for themselves.  They were not very orthodox.



    Quote
    That would make them all destroyers of the Faith, outside the Church for heresy, practicing false liturgies and way fallible.  Now, either the last several Popes erred in an epic way proving they were not infallible, (which means the Church isn't the true Church).  Or, none were Popes which makes those who believe they weren't popes, sedes.  

    99% of diocesan bishops are definitely destroyers of the Faith because they allowed a false liturgy to grow in their diocese.  The post-V2 popes did promote the NO and they did not crack down on the bad bishops.  This is part of the papal governance office and has nothing to do with infallibility.

    Secondly, the survival of the Church is not dependent upon the pope's personal faith or his sanctity.  The true faith is being kept alive in tradition and as St Athanasius said in the midst of the chaos of the Arian heresy:  "If the faithful are reduced to a handful, there is the Church."


    Quote
    Or...the NO is enough of a Mass to bring the Blessed Sacrament to men. 
    The purpose of the mass is NOT to bring the Blessed Sacrament to men.  This is your false, protestant understanding of the mass, whose purpose is FOR GOD.  Holy Communion is for men; Mass is for God.  Mass is much, much more than just manufacturing the Holy Eucharist.


    Quote
    If the epic failure of the post conciliar Popes and error of the Church to stop a fake communion services masquerading as a mass for > than 50 years doesn't affect the promise of infallibility, then nothing could and the promise of it is meaningless.  
    People said the same thing during the Arian heresy, when all those masses were invalid too.  1,000s and 1,000s of them were invalid, said by heretic bishops/priests and most people went along with it, for a variety of reasons.  Just like the pope during the Arian heresy didn't officially approve of these false masses, so the post-V2 popes have not OFFICIALLY approved of the DOUBTFULLY false NO masses.


    Quote
    It simply isn't possible for a Pope to introduce a Mass that isn't really a Mass into the Church, then leave it as a legacy of some sort, where subsequent Popes continued that legacy, but that doesn't affect infallibility.  Not possible. 
    Paul VI introduced liturgy A.  What is said in 95% of diocese is a corruption of the approved liturgy, as Pope Benedict said happened, which is why he issued the "reform of the reform".  Yet today, which priests and bishops use the corrupt way, and which use the "reformed" way?  

    More importantly, which bishops and priests are actually valid clerics?  Which priests have been taught the TRUE intention for mass, in the uber liberal and heretical seminaries that are run by freemasons/communists?  

    Even if every diocese in the latin world used the approved liturgy A, there would STILL be major doubts because of the priest's ordination and his personal intention. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13199
    • Reputation: +8313/-2572
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
    « Reply #73 on: July 23, 2018, 08:27:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    What you propose denies the credibility of the Church and the infallibility of the Pope. 
    Does the pope speak from the Chair of St Peter when he says mass?  Is he teaching dogmatically during mass?  Of course not.  You need to read up on what infallibility is.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11528
    • Reputation: +6479/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
    « Reply #74 on: July 23, 2018, 08:28:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Oh dear.  So, Mass being a matter of faith, and the Pope contradicts that Faith by doing a false or doubtfully valid Mass, and promotes others to do that Mass, and passes that Mass along without condemning it, then infallibility is shot.  What you propose denies the credibility of the Church and the infallibility of the Pope.      
    Happenby...i think what you are driving at is not so much infallibility but indefectibility of the Church.