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Author Topic: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?  (Read 8391 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2018, 12:57:56 PM »
Paul VI's heretical status is irrelevant.

Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2018, 02:22:27 PM »
Paul VI's heretical status is irrelevant.
Ok, I'll take that as your answer.  So, heretic Paul VI took over the Church and taught major error in matters of faith and morals replacing nearly all Masses with fake ones, but the Church and Pope are still infallible? 
If Paul VI was an heretic and destroyed the Mass as you say, was he infallible when he did this?  


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2018, 03:22:30 PM »
Quote
So, heretic Paul VI took over the Church and taught major error in matters of faith and morals replacing nearly all Masses with fake ones, but the Church and Pope are still infallible?
I know my olive tree analogy was pretty lame, but I thought it was clear that my contention is that the liturgy that Paul VI approved was NOT the liturgy that was put into place by 95% of the freemasonic bishops.  So, no, Paul VI did not "replace nearly all masses with fake ones".  The freemasonic bishops did and since the bishops don't have authority to do so, they aren't protected by the Holy Ghost from error.

Secondly, I've never said that the NO was fake.  I said it was extremely doubtful.  In many cases, it is a fake, but we don't know when, where or by whom, because it is dependent upon the priest's personal intention...which no one (except God and him) know.  There is no way to know, by external measures, if a NO is valid.  Therefore, you must act as if it's doubtful, because the doubt is too great.

Quote
If Paul VI was an heretic and destroyed the Mass as you say, was he infallible when he did this?
The question doesn't even make any sense.  A pope's heretical status is dependent upon his PERSONAL beliefs, while his actions of authority are EXTERNAL acts.  They don't have to be connected.  A heretical pope could proclaim somone as canonized, even if he didn't believe it, because his authority as pope, if he uses such authority, is protected from error by the Holy Ghost (in certain circuмstances).

Further, one could make the argument that Paul VI's constitution which created the NO was not an infallible act, because he did not bind any of the faithful to accept, use or attend his new mass.  If something is optional, then how can it be infallible?  Infallible means "without error"; how can something optional be "without error"?  Makes no sense.

Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2018, 03:44:08 PM »
I know my olive tree analogy was pretty lame, but I thought it was clear that my contention is that the liturgy that Paul VI approved was NOT the liturgy that was put into place by 95% of the freemasonic bishops.  So, no, Paul VI did not "replace nearly all masses with fake ones".  The freemasonic bishops did and since the bishops don't have authority to do so, they aren't protected by the Holy Ghost from error.

Secondly, I've never said that the NO was fake.  I said it was extremely doubtful.  In many cases, it is a fake, but we don't know when, where or by whom, because it is dependent upon the priest's personal intention...which no one (except God and him) know.  There is no way to know, by external measures, if a NO is valid.  Therefore, you must act as if it's doubtful, because the doubt is too great.
The question doesn't even make any sense.  A pope's heretical status is dependent upon his PERSONAL beliefs, while his actions of authority are EXTERNAL acts.  They don't have to be connected.  A heretical pope could proclaim somone as canonized, even if he didn't believe it, because his authority as pope, if he uses such authority, is protected from error by the Holy Ghost (in certain circuмstances).

Further, one could make the argument that Paul VI's constitution which created the NO was not an infallible act, because he did not bind any of the faithful to accept, use or attend his new mass.  If something is optional, then how can it be infallible?  Infallible means "without error"; how can something optional be "without error"?  Makes no sense.
I largely agree with the first part.  The only thing I complained about is that people say the NO is absolutely evil, or not a Mass.  We don't know that.  The next question I posed makes great sense, because if Paul VI and later JPII and Benedict XVI did the NO, put bishops in authority to ordain priests to do the NO, then the NO comes from the top. These Popes reigned, doing what the Church does, that is, the NO, during their reign, proving the NO was covered by the authority of the Church.  This never covers for sacrileges done by priests or bishops of course. The NO can't possibly be intrinsically evil, or even doubtful, in and of itself, or Church authority erred by doing the NO.  And that is not possible. 

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Buenas Aires Eucharistic Miracle?
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2018, 04:23:19 PM »
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The NO can't possibly be intrinsically evil, or even doubtful, in and of itself, or Church authority erred by doing the NO.  And that is not possible.
Yes, it can be, and absolutely is, doubtful.  If you disagree, then you're saying Cardinal Ottaviani and Bacci are idiots.

What about all the V2 theologians who admit that the NO's theology is different from Trent?  Does that not matter?

You keep missing the point that the NO liturgy said in the dioceses IS NOT what Paul VI approved.  Does that make Paul VI guilty, for his silence and lack of action to correct the evil liturgy which was being said everywhere?  Absolutely.  Does that mean the Church "failed"?  Not at all.

There have been numerous clerics who complained, from day 1, that the NO was wrong and was not in accordance with "the spirit of Vatican 2".  Lots of people knew that liberties were being taken with the new missal, and such liberties were sacriligeous and, in many cases, invalided it.  But "officially" the Church did not authorize these liberties, so they don't come from the Church, but from bad bishops and priests.  The pope is obviously guilty of not clearing out these evil clerics (and that's a grave, grave sin), and he's guilty of not stopping their sacrileges, but he didn't OFFICIALLY authorize this false liturgy, so it is not "from the Church".  ...at least, that's one way to look at it.