This is not a thread I make because I suspect some people of trying to brainwash me. This is a debate thread.

"Is brainwashing ever justified?"

Consider this: IF it is right to use all the experience you have of how people behave to influence their opinion to affect a conversion, is it then right, do you think, to brainwash others to become Catholic.

For instance, I use this myself to spread the faith often using the psychological handles of ability and security. I am not ashamed of it, because I know that other forces in society do the same thing to cause them to lose the faith. I don't believe in prayer alone ( quietism), but I believe in conversion of lapsed Catholics and non-trads.

If you observe that someone, because of their age, is physically weaker, and more concerned about security, would you link your ideas promoting the faith to the satisfaction of their urge to be safe?

It is brainwashing and I think it is right, but only for the cause of saving souls.

What do others think on this?

Soulguard, have you yet to sit down and discuss your unique private theories with a well - educated, orthodox Catholic priest?

This has been suggested more than once to you by some thoughtful, well-read and (amazingly) patient members of this forum.

Panzer-style "über-katholisch" tactics usually discourage the interested, to put it quite mildly. And, as I am sure you realized right after posting your hypothetical question, if there is anyplace in which manipulation is not only inappropriate but likely, as well, the product of an imperfect formation, that place would be in the practice of Catholic apologetics.

The Faith requires no devices. It has transmitted itself for two millennia without artificiality, superficiality or subversive measures.

There's the temptation to cut corners, but one must do things in a right spirit.

If one is doing things exteriorly that should have a result you think, and they do not, consider whether your expectations are a little too fixed, or whether you have sufficiently gained the graces to achieve the goal.

Purity of intention is key..


'You have preached, you have prayed, but have you fasted? Have you taken the discipline [a self imposed scourge]? Have you slept on the floor? So long as you have done none of these things, you have no right to complain.'

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, to a priest complaining about the indifference of his parish

"Is brainwashing ever justified?"

I am not ashamed of it, because I know that other forces in society do the same thing to cause them to lose the faith. I don't believe in prayer alone (quietism), but I believe in conversion of lapsed Catholics and non-trads.

If you observe that someone, because of their age, is physically weaker, and more concerned about security, would you link your ideas promoting the faith to the satisfaction of their urge to be safe?

It is brainwashing and I think it is right, but only for the cause of saving souls.

What do others think on this?

Firstly, the end does not justify the means. If evil people use evil means, that does not mean that it's OK for us to use them.

Conversion is a free decision (the result of a grace from God), while brainwashing is a form of force - not physical force, psychological force, but force it is, nevertheless.

Brainwashing is used by evil people in order to control others. This has naught to do with conversion. It is the tool of the likes of evil sects like the Jehovah's Witnesses and their ilk, who pray prey on people at their weakest moment, like immediately after the suffer a bereavement.

Soulguard, leave a little space for God to do His Bit. We don't know His timing.

Sure, be kind and tenderhearted to the distressed, but as  St. Francis of Assisi is credited with saying, “Preach the gospel at all times. Use words if necessary.”

I find the accusation of brainwashing in regards to Christianity comes from atheists in regards to how parents are raising their children.

a case in point would be the criticism directed at parents depicted in the movie Jesus Camp.

Apparently, if you take your kids to Church and instruct them in your faith you are brainwashing.

But convincing your 6 year old son he is a girl and then suing the state so he can use the girls restroom at elementary school is the right thing to do.  

.

:scared2:Communists use brainwashing.  Catholics rely upon the Grace of God.

I found this interesting.  

This thread, so far, is a collection of comments about individual reactions involving the term, "brainwashing."  

But that word means different things to different people.  

I know a communist who proudly and disdainfully asserts that there is no such thing as 'brainwashing' -- that it is a chimera, a fantasy, a non-reality that is the figment of unscrupulous imaginations of the uninformed.  

It is most noteworthy to me that this communist, whom I know, has been brainwashed by Socialist college professors, at California State University at Northrige, in the Sociology Department.  

He is brainwashed into thinking that there is no such thing as brainwashing.  

And they accomplished this in him without "yelling at him."

I'm not sure it is truly brainwashing to use knowledge of a person to persuade them to consider Catholicism.  

Any good missionary or evangelist uses the existing knowledge of a person to instruct them in the Faith.  It is absolutely essential that he would do so to make the faith believable.  There is no greater means to reach a person's soul than to use their own experiences and life lessons to demonstrate to them that God has been preparing them for the Faith all along, and this moment could become the fulfillment of that preparation, if he would only accept God's grace.  

Everyone receives actual grace from God, but too many do not accept it.  For God's grace to work in us we have to cooperate with it.

Brainwashing to me is more of a negative word. It is    is more     like    yelling    at a person repeatedly   until they submit or repeating a lie until that person believes it.

While I know that sometimes "yelling at a person repeatedly" like they do in the Marines  :drillsergeant: is one method of brainwashing, but it's not the only one.

The method they use in colleges doesn't involve any "yelling" really.  Rather they use the heavy threat of giving you a poor grade in your classwork if you don't comply with their Communist doctrine.  If you want a good grade in Sociology today, you have to demonstrate that you believe the Communist propaganda, so it is a battle of wills, and since the Communists are in power in the college faculty and the state government that funds them, they can control what the schools produce in their graduates.  They won't let you get a diploma if you are ideologically opposed to their Communism.  

If you don't buy into their Communism, you simply don't get a Bachelor's Degree.

In fact, one of their doctrines is the lesson of the "Big Lie" by which, this lie, repeated frequently and boldly, eventually becomes believed.  They admit this to be true, only as it applies to the enemies of Communism, however, and they claim that it has been what for example Adolf Hitler used, which of course, involved a lot of "yelling."  Also, conservative American politicians are likewise accused, especially when they raise their voices.  Southern Baptist preachers are a prime target, mostly because the VOLUME of their speech is on the upper half of the scale.  

And now, those who don't want to pay attention to his message, accuse Fr. Pfeiffer of being a 'brainwasher' because he preaches with power and volume --- and, of course, his message is one they don't like to hear.  

It seems to me that Bishop Fellay's entire agenda would fall flat if he were to give speeches with more energy and if he were to preach with great enthusiasm.  He is able to keep his followers convinced of his message and accepting of his leadership by using soft-spoken style and talking s-l-o-w-l-y.  

Of course, to those with ears to hear, it just sounds b-o-r-i-n-g  

But it is a great example of COMMUNIST BRAINWASHING.


Please do not miss the fact that this is one of the errors of Russia today, that Communism is being spread worldwide by speaking in soft tones, without 'yelling' and the Big Lie is being used with great success, to indoctrinate and brainwash unsuspecting victims, and all the while, they pretend that they are not using the Big Lie or brainwashing, to accomplish their goal.

In fact, it is believed by many of the deceived victims of the errors of Russia, that since a given proponent of the Communist message (maybe not recognized as such) speaks with a soft voice, that THAT ALONE gives him (or her) credibility, and the listener is wooed to pay attention and believe the Big Lie that is thus communicated.  

Just yesterday, I saw such a Fellayite lemming use an iPod to access the sspx.org website to give credibility to his claim that the Second Intention of +Fellay's Rosary Crusade is "For the return to Tradition within the Church."  I made note of the fact that the original version in French was "For the return OF Tradition within the Church."  But I got a gaping-mouth blank stare from the Fellayite, as though my deliberate concern over the difference between "to" and "of" is somehow beyond the pale, or whatever.

I pointed out to him that it really depends on which language you use and which district's website you refer to, because the Polish district, and the French district, and the German district and the South American district all have different versions compared to the Asian and American and British districts.  

When I said that the South American District's version is, "For the return of Rome to Catholic Tradition," he was utterly speechless.  That was fun.


.