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Author Topic: Both spouses and work  (Read 1356 times)

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Offline Kephapaulos

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Both spouses and work
« on: April 30, 2017, 02:53:59 AM »
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  • In view of what was brought up on another thread and what has come to mind to me, what are the best arguments for the husband working and the wife staying at home? 

    There is the argument against the natural marriage relationship that it is supposedly a necessity for both spouses to work these days and concern for if the husband dies. I find it a pretty annoying modern assumption.

    Of course, are not there are lot of good ways to manage money better and opportunities for women to go to school and work if necessary at all?

    Are there are any good traditional Catholic articles on this subject that demolishes the liberal arguments, particularly in principle? 

    Thank you. 
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)


    Online Nadir

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    Re: Both spouses and work
    « Reply #1 on: April 30, 2017, 04:32:59 AM »
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  • Good subject for a thread, Kephapaulos!

    If a couple believe in the God's purpose in creating marriage, they will understand that there are two separate roles to be played in a marriage: that of provider and that of nurturer. The former belongs to the man and the latter to the woman. Of course, today we are far from this, God's, plan.

    Modern life is especially structured to destroy this natural arrangement. There are many issues to discuss here.

    Of course you hit the nail on the head in saying "there are lot of good ways to manage money better". That's just one issue. Think of all the things we need today of which our ancestors had no knowledge, no desire for, no need, and yet they stayed together, had fruitful lives and were generally more content than couples today.

    I just came across this blog with quite a good article and others to follow on.
    http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2015/08/29/how-to-have-a-true-traditional-catholic-marriage/
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Marlelar

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    Re: Both spouses and work
    « Reply #2 on: April 30, 2017, 06:45:06 PM »
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  • My cousin died at 29 leaving a 25 yo widow with a 3yo and a 6 mo baby.  She had no education, no skills, no extended family to rely on.  Although his family helped where they could she ended up on welfare.

    It's not like it was 100 years ago when a woman could go back to the farm/ranch and live with her/his parents and raise the children.  Without marketable skills of some sort women are devoured by the modern welfare system.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Both spouses and work
    « Reply #3 on: April 30, 2017, 09:14:13 PM »
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  • My cousin died at 29 leaving a 25 yo widow with a 3yo and a 6 mo baby.  She had no education, no skills, no extended family to rely on.  Although his family helped where they could she ended up on welfare.

    It's not like it was 100 years ago when a woman could go back to the farm/ranch and live with her/his parents and raise the children.  Without marketable skills of some sort women are devoured by the modern welfare system.

    To me, this reads like a cliff-hanger. What happened next? Did the welfare system fail them, put them on the street, or leave them starving? If social welfare isn't for a widow with no parents, uncles, cousins, or friends who can help her, then who is it for?

    I expected to hear something more like, "she was forced to put her children in public school".
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline Marlelar

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    Re: Both spouses and work
    « Reply #4 on: April 30, 2017, 09:38:52 PM »
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  • Oops, sorry.  She stayed a welfare queen and sank to the level that Uncle Sam provided.  Other men moved in/out of her life but 3rd hand I heard she didn't want to get married because she would lose her "benefits". At least she didn't keep reproducing so as to increase her $$.

    Welfare seems to destroy people's initiative.  I know there are exceptions but rather than a leg up it seems to be an arm that holds people down.  


    Offline Marlelar

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    Re: Both spouses and work
    « Reply #5 on: April 30, 2017, 09:47:33 PM »
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  • p.s.  it's not that I'm against welfare per se, just the way it is administered today.  I do think people who have fallen on hard times through no fault of their own should be helped, but the current system seems to discourage people from boot-strapping themselves into a better life.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Both spouses and work
    « Reply #6 on: May 01, 2017, 01:16:31 AM »
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  • I'm not inclined to place the primary blame on the welfare system since I can't really envision a system run on specific regulations that can't be easily abused in such a messed-up social order. Ideally, your cousin's widow would be shunned for having ongoing marriage-type relationships to men she's not married to. So, she'd have to choose between being a truly single mother in need of assistance or remarrying and possibly not needing the assistance. But, as it is, it's likely no one in her social circle would criticize her for trying to take the advantages of both.

    Improvements to the system can be made, but I don't know anything that would eliminate the situation you describe.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Online Nadir

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    Re: Both spouses and work
    « Reply #7 on: May 01, 2017, 03:06:38 AM »
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  • She stayed a welfare queen and sank to the level that Uncle Sam provided.  Other men moved in/out of her life but 3rd hand I heard she didn't want to get married because she would lose her "benefits". At least she didn't keep reproducing so as to increase her $$.

    My expectation was something along the same lines as MD.
    Your comment is quite uncharitable. Even nasty. We should not despise people because they need to be "on welfare".
    Anyway, back onto topic. We are talking about married women working... 
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    Offline Aspirin Annie

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    Re: Both spouses and work
    « Reply #8 on: May 01, 2017, 08:22:38 AM »
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  • This is not a welfare issue. It's about planning. Welfare isn't like a savings account that a woman can fall back on because her husband failed to provide for her if he passed on. It's a step up, and should and can be used for such. I know of situations first hand in which it has been so.

    I also disagree that today's society makes it harder for women who have lost their husbands. Things have not changed that much. It has always been hard on women when left alone with children. In colonial America children were oftentimes forced into indentures. In merry old England they were sent to poorhouses. Women throughout the centuries have married after being widowed because they had little or no choice in order to survive. The weak and vulnerable, which are women and children, are always at risk in such situations. Not everyone had parents, in-laws, or a farm to retreat to. Indeed, women and children cannot work a farm and were merely more mouths to feed. No one really wished to have them along. 

    The "something to fall back on theory" is also not fool proof. If a woman never uses that degree, it becomes bankrupt about the time she is 30 depending on the field she is in. Even if she did work with that degree for a time, if she does not for a number of years it can become difficult to access it and use it by the time she is nearing 40. Of course, some degrees are better than others - nursing allows part-time hours, accounting part-time on-the-side work, some other degrees do as well, so that she can work part-time and keep up her skills. But when a women is knee-deep in diapers with three children under the age of 5 needing her care, or homeschooling  six or more kiddos, she does not have time to worry about keeping up her degree skills. She just wants sleep and to go the bathroom without someone calling for her. 

    And a woman working does not ensure her survival if her husband does die. If their debts are high, or they have a lot fo loans, etc., she will still have a hard time after he is gone. She has learned to live on twice the money and now has to live on half of that.



      

    Offline nctradcath

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    Re: Both spouses and work
    « Reply #9 on: May 01, 2017, 12:01:20 PM »
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  • All of these threads fail to state the obvious. A person can pray to God for help. He will give it; if, it is in the best interests of the salvation of the concerned party. If the person doesn't receive the help, God may desire them to live in poverty for the salvation of their soul. 

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Both spouses and work
    « Reply #10 on: May 01, 2017, 02:30:35 PM »
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  • In view of what was brought up on another thread and what has come to mind to me, what are the best arguments for the husband working and the wife staying at home?

    There is the argument against the natural marriage relationship that it is supposedly a necessity for both spouses to work these days and concern for if the husband dies. I find it a pretty annoying modern assumption.

    Of course, are not there are lot of good ways to manage money better and opportunities for women to go to school and work if necessary at all?

    Are there are any good traditional Catholic articles on this subject that demolishes the liberal arguments, particularly in principle?

    Thank you.
    Here are a couple articles I wrote on this topic about 2 years ago:

    1.  The Place of Women in Society:
    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-place-of-women-in-society_13.html

    2.  For Women Who Have No Choice But to Be Independent:
    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/2015/03/how-lady-should-act-when-placed-in.html
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/


    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Both spouses and work
    « Reply #11 on: May 14, 2017, 04:49:22 PM »
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  • what are the best arguments for the husband working and the wife staying at home?
    The protection and education of the children (parents are the child's primary educator)
    Really, the same reasons for homeschooling

    Pope Pius XI explains it well in his encyclical on Christian education, Divini Illius Magistri:
    Quote
    73. Nevertheless, Venerable Brethren and beloved children, We wish to call your attention in a special manner to the present-day lamentable decline in family education [i.e., homeschooling]. The offices and professions of a transitory and earthly life, which are certainly of far less importance, are prepared for by long and careful study; whereas for the fundamental duty and obligation of educating their children, many parents have little or no preparation, immersed as they are in temporal cares. The declining influence of domestic environment is further weakened by another tendency, prevalent almost everywhere today, which, under one pretext or another, for economic reasons, or for reasons of industry, trade or politics, causes children to be more and more frequently sent away from home even in their tenderest years. And there is a country where the children are actually being torn from the bosom of the family, to be formed (or, to speak more accurately, to be deformed and depraved) in godless schools and associations, to irreligion and hatred, according to the theories of advanced socialism; and thus is renewed in a real and more terrible manner the slaughter of the Innocents.
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