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Author Topic: Better to Avoid Indult Mass if No Alternative?  (Read 3200 times)

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Offline FiannFdla

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Better to Avoid Indult Mass if No Alternative?
« on: November 12, 2021, 05:28:51 AM »
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  • While it is clear that we should avoid the Novus Ordo Mass if there is no TLM available I am wondering does the same apply to the Indult Masses? If no Resistance or SSPX Mass is available is it better to avoid an Indult Mass from the ICKSP or FSSP and spend the Lord's Day in prayer and reading Scripture?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Better to Avoid Indult Mass if No Alternative?
    « Reply #1 on: November 12, 2021, 06:27:17 AM »
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  • While it is clear that we should avoid the Novus Ordo Mass if there is no TLM available I am wondering does the same apply to the Indult Masses? If no Resistance or SSPX Mass is available is it better to avoid an Indult Mass from the ICKSP or FSSP and spend the Lord's Day in prayer and reading Scripture?

    Yes.

    As Lefebvre said, when you go to that Mass, you don’t just attend that Mass, but an entire milieu:

    There’s the advice in the confessional; the sermon; the conversations over coffee after Mass; the new fasting discipline; biritual clergy (sometimes); priests and faithful defending the orthodoxy of the errors of the Council and post-conciliarists reforms.

    Eventually, some of those germs penetrate your immune system, and the conversion process begins.

    Some might opine that even a willingness to attend an indult is itself already a sign of conciliar infection.

    Mr. Salza is a good example of this (he admits to never having completely left conciliar indult Masses, and today, he defends V2 and opposes Lefebvre almost across the board).

    Going beyond the Mass, in the wake of Francis’s Traditionis Custodes, it seems the questionable forms of the new sacraments will be used by these same groups (which might include invalid last rites performed with vegetable oil), etc.

    All of that bound up together might present or introduce obstacles to persevering in the Faith.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Better to Avoid Indult Mass if No Alternative?
    « Reply #2 on: November 12, 2021, 06:50:18 AM »
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  • I'm not sure I buy the arguments against it.  Let's assume that the priest is valid and orthodox (gives good Catholic sermons and good spiritual direction), then what would be the problem there?

    To me this has the feeling of a political thing, but if these people are Catholics and there are no other reasons not to go, I think it would be schismatic to say that you can't go on principle.

    I have long felt that the excuses for why attending an Indult / Motu Mass were more political in nature than real.  There's a contempt for the notion of "Indult / Motu" among Traditional Catholics, on the principle that one shouldn't need permission, etc.  And I think that's the real reason.

    Offline FiannFdla

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    Re: Better to Avoid Indult Mass if No Alternative?
    « Reply #3 on: November 12, 2021, 06:52:32 AM »
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  • Yes.

    As Lefebvre said, when you go to that Mass, you don’t just attend that Mass, but an entire milieu:

    There’s the advice in the confessional; the sermon; the conversations over coffee after Mass; the new fasting discipline; biritual clergy (sometimes); priests and faithful defending the orthodoxy of the errors of the Council and post-conciliarists reforms.

    Eventually, some of those germs penetrate your immune system, and the conversion process begins.

    Some might opine that even a willingness to attend an indult is itself already a sign of conciliar infection.

    Mr. Salza is a good example of this (he admits to never having completely left conciliar indult Masses, and today, he defends V2 and opposes Lefebvre almost across the board).

    Going beyond the Mass, in the wake of Francis’s Traditionis Custodes, it seems the questionable forms of the new sacraments will be used by these same groups (which might include invalid last rites performed with vegetable oil), etc.

    All of that bound up together might present or introduce obstacles to persevering in the Faith.
    Thanks for the guidance. I just wasn't sure how to reconcile my obligation to attend Mass and the potential to attend a licit TLM that is however contaminated with the heresies of V2. I certainly understand how it can undermine one's Faith and anger God even if the Mass itself is valid and licit.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Better to Avoid Indult Mass if No Alternative?
    « Reply #4 on: November 12, 2021, 06:56:08 AM »
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  • Even though I have doubts about the validity of your average Motu priest, I've known a few who were undoubtedly valid and who were extremely orthodox (coming a hair's breadth away from saying that Bergoglio wasn't pope) ... and who distributed Holy Communion from Hosts that were consecrated at his Mass and not out of the NOM tabernacle.  I'd have zero issues with assisting at Mass there and, in that situation, receiving Communion.

    I would certainly avoid receiving Communion from a tabernacle which had Hosts "consecrated" at a NOM, since that's participation in worship that offends God.

    And in terms of the "milieu," I've seen Motu Masses where the faithful dress better than at your average SSPX chapel.

    But assuming these other conditions, please explain why it would be wrong to go.  In fact, if that were the only option to meet your Sunday obligation, explain why one would not be obliged to assist at that Mass. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Better to Avoid Indult Mass if No Alternative?
    « Reply #5 on: November 12, 2021, 06:59:52 AM »
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  • In terms of endangering your faith, I submit that it would be more dangerous to listen to Father Robinson, SSPX sermons than that of many of the Motu priests I have known.  Most NO sermons are just insipid and touch-feely, but rarely do you find heterodox sermons at a Motu Mass ... since they tend not to touch on what they consider controversial theological matters.  They tend to play it safe ... except one priest I knew that essentially condemned the entire Conciliar hierarchy from the pulpit.

    Besides that, we're not talking necessarily about a REGULAR attendance at Motu Masses.  Take a scenario where you're travelling and you can't find a "Trad" chapel.  There's a Motu Mass with a valid and orthodox priest in the vicinity.  I would hold that you are required to assist at said Mass to fulfill your obligation.  Please provide rational arguments against that scenario, not just political and emotional stuff.

    Offline DustyActual

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    Re: Better to Avoid Indult Mass if No Alternative?
    « Reply #6 on: November 12, 2021, 07:30:19 AM »
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  • From what I know, there is precedent for avoiding a latin mass that is said by a priest who is compromised. During the French revolution you had priests who sided with the freemasonic government, and faithful Catholics would not attend their masses. I don't think we can say that those Catholics who refused to attend the masses of the juring priests, were in mortal sin.
    Go to Jesus through Our Lady.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Better to Avoid Indult Mass if No Alternative?
    « Reply #7 on: November 12, 2021, 07:38:36 AM »
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  • I believe the doubtful nature of their holy orders is sufficient enough reason to avoid the Indult. Yes, there may be some who are undoubtedly validly ordained as Lad stated, but the vast majority are ordained in the new rite OR ordained in the trad rite by bishops of doubtful ordination. And these are things you would have to actually look into in order to know, not something outward to determine just because the apparent priest says orthodox sermons, has pretty vestments and well-dressed parishioners.

    We're in a spiritual war here, we have to make sure we're receiving the aid of actual sacraments, not apparent or presumed sacraments. So I'm with Sean on this one. Avoid it unless you know with CERTAINTY that it is a validly ordained priest.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Better to Avoid Indult Mass if No Alternative?
    « Reply #8 on: November 12, 2021, 07:45:14 AM »
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  • you would have to actually look into in order to know, not something outward to determine just because the apparent priest says orthodox sermons, has pretty vestments and well-dressed parishioners.

    We're in a spiritual war here, we have to make sure we're receiving the aid of actual sacraments, not apparent or presumed sacraments. So I'm with Sean on this one. Avoid it unless you know with CERTAINTY that it is a validly ordained priest.

    That is my OPINION as well.

    This whole thread is touching on prudence, not dogma. It's all about the Crisis, which means you can't really condemn any honest solution or response. So all I can give here is my opinion.

    I would like to add to the above quote: you also should keep in mind the Indult is 100% compromised, working with the complete permission of the destroyers in Rome -- the destroyers who basically created a new man-made religion and called it "Catholic". And that new religion is totally happy with the Indult, FSSP, etc. Think about that one.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Better to Avoid Indult Mass if No Alternative?
    « Reply #9 on: November 12, 2021, 07:49:33 AM »
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  • That is my OPINION as well.

    This whole thread is touching on prudence, not dogma. It's all about the Crisis, which means you can't really condemn any honest solution or response. So all I can give here is my opinion.

    Bravo.  That’s a huge point to keep in mind as well (and the reason I do not attempt to rebut Ladislaus here).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Better to Avoid Indult Mass if No Alternative?
    « Reply #10 on: November 12, 2021, 08:05:19 AM »
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  • This would be a serious doctrinal impediment to attending an indult or FSSI/ICK Mass:

    By the decree Quattuor Abhinc Annos of October 3, 1984, the Congregation for Divine Worship gave bishops the faculty to grant an indult for the celebration of Mass according to the 1962 Missal, provided that certain conditions be respected. The first one required that the celebrant and the faithful hearing the Mass “in no way share the positions of those who call in question the legitimacy and doctrinal exactitude of the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970.”

    There was nothing in the 1988 indult which abrogated this prior 1984 condition, and although Summorum Pontificuм of 2007 did supersede this 1984 condition, Francis’s Traditionis Custodes has now abrogated SP, returning us to the pre-2007 condition:

    Just by walking in the door of an indult chapel, you are broadcasting to the world that you accept the doctrinal rectitude of the new Mass. 

    That is unacceptable and impermissible.

    So I’m amending /retracting my endorsement of the “its all just a matter of prudence” position, in light of this very doctrinal objection.

    I had forgotten the terms of the 1984 indult are once again operative.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Puzzle

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    Re: Better to Avoid Indult Mass if No Alternative?
    « Reply #11 on: November 12, 2021, 08:51:55 AM »
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  • If no Resistance or SSPX Mass is available is it better to avoid an Indult Mass from the ICKSP or FSSP and spend the Lord's Day in prayer and reading Scripture?
    In my 40 years of participating in the tridentine mass solely by independent and sspx priests, my answer to your question is an emphatic "no", because God knows your heart.

    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Better to Avoid Indult Mass if No Alternative?
    « Reply #12 on: November 12, 2021, 09:00:39 AM »
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  • This would be a serious doctrinal impediment to attending an indult or FSSI/ICK Mass:

    By the decree Quattuor Abhinc Annos of October 3, 1984, the Congregation for Divine Worship gave bishops the faculty to grant an indult for the celebration of Mass according to the 1962 Missal, provided that certain conditions be respected. The first one required that the celebrant and the faithful hearing the Mass “in no way share the positions of those who call in question the legitimacy and doctrinal exactitude of the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970.”

    There was nothing in the 1988 indult which abrogated this prior 1984 condition, and although Summorum Pontificuм of 2007 did supersede this 1984 condition, Francis’s Traditionis Custodes has now abrogated SP, returning us to the pre-2007 condition:

    Just by walking in the door of an indult chapel, you are broadcasting to the world that you accept the doctrinal rectitude of the new Mass. 

    That is unacceptable and impermissible.

    So I’m amending /retracting my endorsement of the “its all just a matter of prudence” position, in light of this very doctrinal objection.

    I had forgotten the terms of the 1984 indult are once again operative.
    I am curious, would you say the same thing about "walking in the door" of an eastern chapel like Melkite or Byzantine? 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Better to Avoid Indult Mass if No Alternative?
    « Reply #13 on: November 12, 2021, 09:02:05 AM »
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  • Fr. Wathen said:

    "People should know that attending the Indult Mass represents a very serious compromise of their faith. Before a bishop allows the Traditional Latin Mass in one of his Novus Ordo churches, according to papal direction, he exacts this commitment: Those to whom the Mass is made available must give a verbal acceptance to the Second Vatican Council and to the new mass.

     Whether they know it or not, everyone who attends the Indult Mass makes the same implicit commitment. In the days of the Rome persecutions, a Catholic could escape martyrdom if he would burn the tiniest pinch of incense before one of the countless Roman gods. The commitment which the pope and bishops require is that pinch of incense."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Better to Avoid Indult Mass if No Alternative?
    « Reply #14 on: November 12, 2021, 09:06:23 AM »
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  • I am curious, would you say the same thing about "walking in the door" of an eastern chapel like Melkite or Byzantine?

    No, because the condition is not attached to Byzantine Rite Mass attendance.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."