Quote from: CathMomof7

As for being outcasts....upon my 5 pregnancy in NO, the whispers and gossip started.  The stares, the questions, the criticism was too much.  

When we came to SSPX I was pregnant with #7.  The  priest even commented that there were large age gaps between our children and waited for some explanation.  Having "only" 7 seemed to be a mark of a lack of faith or something.  No lay person really said anything, but we were occasionally asked if we married late or had fertility problems.

Now this I don't understand. Well, I do understand it -- more Pharisaic behavior.

What's to explain in such a case? The fact that you have the latter children in quite "regular" intervals suggests a repentance/fixing up of the situation does it not?

I would respond flatly, "No, we used birth control. But I confessed that sin and amended my life years ago. Did you notice my youngest 4 are 2 years apart? Oh no, don't tell me that Birth Control is the mythical sin that can't be forgiven! I thought all sins could be forgiven if we repent and have recourse to the sacrament of Penance that Christ instituted for us poor sinners. Oh well, I guess we all can't be Without Sin as you obviously must be..."

You'd make those people feel so small, they'd want to crawl into the nearest hole and disappear.

Seriously, from the greatest to the least of them, they don't have a leg to stand on. However "nosy" it is to butt into a couple's private life and rash judge why they don't have "enough" children, it's even worse when you have EVIDENCE that the problem has been rectified.

What are they implying, that there's no forgiveness of sins? Ridiculous and un-Catholic.

Some people are such piss-poor specimens of Catholicism that they can't feel good about themselves unless they're tearing others down. These same lame-excuses-for-human-beings probably judge a couple married for 5 years with a 6 year old in tow. Hello, they got married! They probably confessed their sin. What more do you want?

Atheists and unbelievers have more human decency than these hypocritical Trads. Fortunately, I think these horrible human beings are rare. But they do exist.

This is the confusing part though Mathew as your thread title is 'Johnny come latelys' which is a snide enough comment to make and yet you are giving out that they 'cheated' which is probably the case but why not afford them the same understanding as bolded above.  You were specific in the Trad baby boomer generation, if they are receiving the Sacraments then its not for you to discuss.

Ok, moving on to the hundreds of RAMIFICATIONS of this social trend that we have observed.

Children of Baby Boomers born in Tradition, trying to do the right thing, are having much larger families than their parents now and meeting various problems:

1. B.B. Parents aren't particularly good with kids -- mothers went back to work after having each of their 3 children, they didn't have a large family, they sent their kids to public school, many didn't even breastfeed. So the children have to learn everything by trial and error for themselves.

2. B.B. Parents are often not especially inclined to babysit, or be sympathetic to our needs.

3. B.B. Parents don't understand the challenges of the large family.

4. Many B.B. parents assume that things are the same for us (plus or minus) as it was for them growing up -- except for a few things like airport screenings, cell phones, etc.

5. The things valued by B.B.'s, such as college education for each child, don't work at all when the # of children goes higher than 3 or 4.

Etc. Etc.

Quote from: Matthew

Ok, moving on to the hundreds of RAMIFICATIONS of this social trend that we have observed.

Children of Baby Boomers born in Tradition, trying to do the right thing, are having much larger families than their parents now and meeting various problems:

1. B.B. Parents aren't particularly good with kids -- mothers went back to work after having each of their 3 children, they didn't have a large family, they sent their kids to public school, many didn't even breastfeed. So the children have to learn everything by trial and error for themselves.

2. B.B. Parents are often not especially inclined to babysit, or be sympathetic to our needs.

3. B.B. Parents don't understand the challenges of the large family.

4. Many B.B. parents assume that things are the same for us (plus or minus) as it was for them growing up -- except for a few things like airport screenings, cell phones, etc.

5. The things valued by B.B.'s, such as college education for each child, don't work at all when the # of children goes higher than 3 or 4.

Etc. Etc.

Wow, what a collection of generalizations. We are boomers who are in near-poverty, are great with kids, were blessed with more than three children, did not work until the children were grown, did not send our children to public school, did breastfeed, love to babysit, are very sympathetic to our children's needs. Most of our boomer friends are like us. And we are very supportive of large families, although God did not bless us in that way.

They are generalizations but that doesn't make them untrue. I've known a lot of young traditional Catholic mothers. I can't think of one of them who has not had a problem with a baby boomer in their chapel who misunderstands Catholic family life. I'm not talking about just Cincinatti or Kansas here, I'm saying this is something that happens in chapels coast to coast.

When I had no children and even just one, I was allowed in the room, so to speak when there was talk about parents. One of the most common complaints has been about homeschooled kids. The only ones complaining are of that generation. Now, I have met some exceptional gradnmothers who take it on themselves to homeschool their grandchildren and help their adult children, and currently, that number is 2.

There are plenty of things one could say that my generation will never understand, I might even be the first to make a list, but I could have also written a list similar to what Matthew wrote. There are also always exceptions.

One more thing I've noticed, is that Baby Boomers who come to tradition often have unmarried children who do not practice the Faith. They are steadfast in prayer and I know they have tried to bring about their children. If their children are married, they don't have more than two children each. It all makes it incredibly hard to relate.

I don't think I would be able to understand the complexities of homeschooling 8 children, if I had never breastfed, spaced my two children apart by six years, and used public schools. In some things, there is a generational gap even in traditionalism. Even now, we are just beginning to see the first parents, who have never attended the Novus Ordo, have children who will never hear stories of life before their parents found the Latin mass. There are just going to be differences in every generation, pointing them out isn't disrespectful, either.

Simple.  Because any other cause that was not a deliberate act of their will, such as something in the water, would apply to the entire water drinking population.  Thus the curve of family size distribution would be an even shape and reflective of the fact that a small minority of women find in difficult or impossible to conceive, a small minority conceive very easily and readily and a majority don't fall into either camp.

It is called a bell curve.

If the shape of the bell curve changes through an external agent affect all parties in a population then the entire curve shifts to the left or right.  If one part of the curve shifts but the other stays static then it must be due to a wilful act of a subset of the population.

There are simply too many mature completed families of say 4 children or less to be put down to minority involuntary external causes such as something in the water, low fertility, infertility or a legitimate application of NFP

People always blame the Baby Boomers but it was the "Greatest Generation" and the "Silent Generation" that laid the groundwork for the cultural revolution.  

People born between 1946 and 1964 are considered Baby Boomers. Most of them would have been very young when Vatican II went down.    Baby Boomers should be known as the first indoctrinated. Patient zero.  

Some couples struggle having children . There are many natural reasons why  couples might not be able to have a large family.  Small families existed before birth control.  How do we know for certain ??  Secondary infertility happens.  I doubt many women would want to talk about it.

They did not know war? There was a draft for the Vietnam War, so unless they dodged the draft, many members of the baby boom generation knew all about war in Vietnam.

Yes and what did the baby boomers say about the war? They said that the Vietcong were the real heroes, that Amerika was a racist, imperial superpower, that it was a dirty, immoral war, etc. I realise that baby boomers did serve in Vietnam and would "grow up" so to speak but it is the generation's Woostock values that rule the era these days as the counter-culture is the dominant culture.

So help my feeble female mind then.  If you don't know if they used NFP, abstinence, something in the water, or birth control, then how do you come to the conclusion/fact that they "cheated"?    

Without placing blame on anyone in particular,

There seems to be a genuine epidemic of small families among Baby Boomers (both Trad non-Trad -- the Baby Boomer culture/values/choices seem to extend into all religions)

What would you call it? Broadly speaking, as a group most of them "got out of" the normal struggles that life normally throws at a young married couple on this earth. Having a small family of 3 or 4 children in public school is a WHOLE DIFFERENT ANIMAL than having a larger family and homeschooling them.

If they had become Trad/informed Catholics sooner, they would have had a chance to make permanent changes. But when you happen to convert after childbearing age, then it's "too late". Not saying they waited on purpose to convert either -- that's just how it happened for the majority of that generation.

Having a large family just doesn't seem to be part of Baby Boomer values.

Their values included insuring everything, college education for each child, and wanting their children to "have it better than they did" -- but that "better" was to be measured in strictly material terms. They also placed a high value on "doing what everybody else does" and in general they invented the concept of the American Dream. They place an over-emphasis on homeownership. My mother (for example) thinks that apartments are for druggies, alcoholics, and those who have declared bankruptcy one or more times in their low, low lives.

Anyhow, those that converted to (or discovered) Traditional Catholicism can move on with their lives, and even save their souls. But there are permanent consequences, for all parties. These permanent consequences and realities are worth drawing attention to and discussing. It will result in better understanding.

We are left with the aftermath -- the massive social reality that we all are affected by, that countless 50-65 year old Catholics just don't understand and can't relate to their children as far as living a normal (Traditional) Catholic lifestyle.

How many Catholics of child-bearing age today have Baby Boomer parents that just don't understand? Parents that can't give any advice about what we're going through? How many of these children of Baby Boomers have followed in their parents' footsteps out of trust or filial devotion, only to be burned by it (for example, the value that "college education = success")?

What would you call it? Broadly speaking, as a group most of them "got out of" the normal struggles that life normally throws at a young married couple on this earth. Having a small family of 3 or 4 children in public school is a WHOLE DIFFERENT ANIMAL than having a larger family and homeschooling them.

You focus too much on difficult aspects of a larger family when you use phrases like "cheated" or "got out of".

They also "missed out on" the joys of being surrounded by many, happy children. They, sadly, will never know the blessing of 20+ grandchildren. If you ask me, they were "cheated" by a society that told them there was a better way than letting God direct your family.