Author Topic: Baby Boomers and Family Size (Read 8884 times)

stbrighidswell · « **Reply #15 on:** January 20, 2015, 10:42:27 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: Nickolas
I guess you can make observations Matthew, but be careful to not make conclusions. I would give more credence to your conclusions if you actually talked with the folks that you have observed. NFP aside, God ordains life in the marriage and neither you nor anyone else knows details of why the couples had 3, 4, 6 or 2 kids for that matter.

Keep in mind that parents of baby boomers were impacted by two wars, WWII and the Korean War. I am a baby boomer and my parents were not Catholic, but the number of children they had was impacted by those wars as my Dad was away during that time. Life was chaos and even when he was home, relations between my Dad and Mom were strained. "Who are you?" Women learned to live without the man in the house and that created all kinds of strain when he was there and relational adjustment when he came home for good.

So if Mr and Mrs so and so have more wealth because they had "just" 4 kids, damn'it , take your mind off them and put it back on important things, like prayer, our own shortfalls, and such. They are of no concern to you nor anyone else and be grateful they now have the time to tend to things in the chapel that keep things going and... praise them for it. The 4 kids they did have were a lot more than the poor wife who had none after her husband was shot in the head at Normandy.

Have you actually *read* any of my posts?

You should be able to tell the difference between philosophizing/talking big picture demographics and judging individuals. I absolutely despise doing the latter -- you must not know me at all.

First of all, you need to go look up what a "Baby Boomer" is. It is someone born between ~1948 and around 1965, plus or minus. The generation you speak of is the "Greatest Generation", or the PARENTS of the Baby Boomers.

The Baby Boomers' war was Vietnam, not WWII.

And as much as I "think the best" of all the individual Baby Boomer couples I know, the fact remains that large families in this generation are as rare as hens' teeth. I would know -- Baby Boomers were my parents, and all my classmates' parents. I know how many of my peers had more than 3 siblings -- virtually none.

Now the Greatest Generation were the ones who often can remember outhouses, not having a phone, not having a TV, living on the land, and they tended to have what I would call "natural size" families. And many young Catholics are having natural size families today. But the natural size family seems to have "skipped" a generation, for whatever reason.

Noting trends like this is for "educational purposes only". It's not so that you can go to Mass next week and yell slurs at the Baby Boomers you see. It's so you can better understand the world, just like any other philosophical endeavor.

By the way, I *have* drawn a conclusion about Baby Boomers. Drawing conclusions is the behavior of rational beings. What I should avoid doing is judging individuals from that generation. Thanks for the condescending admonishment, but you're really preaching to the choir telling me such a thing, as virtually everyone on this board can tell you.

We need to be precise and clear in our speaking/thinking, just like St. Thomas Aquinas was.

But you are judging, you accused them of cheating which in all fairness is probably a correct observation but why is this a topic, can we not be pleased that they have tradition and are trying to live a good Catholic life now.

2Vermont · « **Reply #16 on:** January 21, 2015, 04:31:38 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Matthew
I am NOT, I repeat NOT saying that they are hypocrites.

But that doesn't change the fact that they "cheated" in a way by not having the full number of children when they were younger. If they are materially well off today, it's because A) times were just easier back then, and B) they had less children to support so they had a chance to build up more wealth.

How do you know these things?

As for the rest, it makes me wonder where my husband and I fit into the Trad world given we're Johnny Come Latelies with no children and no particular wealth. I wonder what the parishioners at our chapel think of us.

I know these things because I've walked this earth for a while, and I've noticed a distinct trend among Baby Boomers, even the good Catholic ones, to have much smaller families than the "norm". I realize the "norm" varies, but you can see a drastic cutoff in the average number of children when you compare the Greatest Generation (WW2) and the Baby Boomers. Just look it up if you don't believe me.

I don't have to have inside knowledge to open my eyes and see things that are quite public.

I don't know WHY all the Baby Boomers have such small families -- maybe there was a REALLY effective NFP book, maybe there was something in the water -- that's all beside the point. All I'm saying is that they have small families. Nothing more.

If you want to narrow things down to personalities, and/or draw a judgment, sentence, condemnation, etc. from that, you're on your own.

Some people are cut out for abstract philosophical discussion, and some are not. I hate to say it, but many women are not. They tend to make everything personal and specific -- it's in their nature.

But actually the bolded isn't completely true. You're also stating that they "cheated" and that they didn't have the "full" number of children as if you know that God would have given them more children. You don't know what God wished to be their particular "full" number.

This isn't something personal since I am not one of the people you are discussing. I am trying to put myself in their shoes though and I wonder why you care so much what they did or did not do before coming to Tradition. It seems to bother you a lot that, in your opinion, they "cheated". Why?

Nadir · « **Reply #17 on:** January 21, 2015, 04:58:26 AM »

Matthew said:

Quote

I hate to say it, but

In this particular case, I think that you are acting more like a woman, Matthew, than 2Vermont.

ggreg · « **Reply #18 on:** January 21, 2015, 05:07:47 AM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: Matthew
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Matthew
I am NOT, I repeat NOT saying that they are hypocrites.

But that doesn't change the fact that they "cheated" in a way by not having the full number of children when they were younger. If they are materially well off today, it's because A) times were just easier back then, and B) they had less children to support so they had a chance to build up more wealth.

How do you know these things?

As for the rest, it makes me wonder where my husband and I fit into the Trad world given we're Johnny Come Latelies with no children and no particular wealth. I wonder what the parishioners at our chapel think of us.

I know these things because I've walked this earth for a while, and I've noticed a distinct trend among Baby Boomers, even the good Catholic ones, to have much smaller families than the "norm". I realize the "norm" varies, but you can see a drastic cutoff in the average number of children when you compare the Greatest Generation (WW2) and the Baby Boomers. Just look it up if you don't believe me.

I don't have to have inside knowledge to open my eyes and see things that are quite public.

I don't know WHY all the Baby Boomers have such small families -- maybe there was a REALLY effective NFP book, maybe there was something in the water -- that's all beside the point. All I'm saying is that they have small families. Nothing more.

If you want to narrow things down to personalities, and/or draw a judgment, sentence, condemnation, etc. from that, you're on your own.

Some people are cut out for abstract philosophical discussion, and some are not. I hate to say it, but many women are not. They tend to make everything personal and specific -- it's in their nature.

But actually the bolded isn't completely true. You're also stating that they "cheated" and that they didn't have the "full" number of children as if you know that God would have given them more children. You don't know what God wished to be their particular "full" number.

This isn't something personal since I am not one of the people you are discussing. I am trying to put myself in their shoes though and I wonder why you care so much what they did or did not do before coming to Tradition. It seems to bother you a lot that, in your opinion, they "cheated". Why?

Because cheating means not playing by the rules. And the rules are, and have always been, you don't contracept. Which, in the aggregate, they did. Otherwise the numbers, the statistical distribution, would be different.

You do know the number of children God would have given them, in the aggregate. It's called the Total Fertility Rate and has been declining for the last 100 years.

http://www.china-profile.com/data/fig_WPP2010_TFR_1.htm

Are you suggesting God might have decided to give a whole tranche of Practicing Catholics less children, while at the same time the world has gotten richer and the total fertility rate has dropped off a cliff?

Seems a little counterproductive to me. Be fruitful and multiply (until I decide to pour weed killer on some of you for no apparent or constructive purpose).

CathMomof7 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2015, 07:53:00 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Has anyone besides me noticed how many older (let's say Baby Boomer) couples at your local Trad chapel have 4 children or fewer?

I mean from the best to the worst of them, they all have 4 children or fewer. Any of them that had 5 were considered to have a "large" family.

If there was a Duggar TV show back then, it would have been a family with 6 children!

Today they are the pillars of our Trad chapels. They provide generous material and other support for the chapels. They usher, lead the Rosary, serve Mass, run the bookstore, and just about anything else that needs doing. They have lots of time and resources to be such pillars. I'm even going to assume they are in the state of grace, having confessed any sins from their past life and are currently striving to live the Catholic faith in an exemplary fashion.

I am NOT, I repeat NOT saying that they are hypocrites.

But that doesn't change the fact that they "cheated" in a way by not having the full number of children when they were younger. If they are materially well off today, it's because A) times were just easier back then, and B) they had less children to support so they had a chance to build up more wealth.

Anyhow, long story short, few (if any) Baby Boomers I've ever encountered could ever say to me, "Well here is how I did it..." because there is a fundamental flaw in whatever system they had: they didn't have the natural number of children God wanted to send (no birth control or NFP).

So besides the fact that the US Dollar is weaker now than in, say, 1970, we also are "handicapped" as it were because many young trads today are embracing the full package of morality, which includes having a large family AND homeschooling them so they aren't indoctrinated in the increasingly-evil public schools.

Homeschooling was *very* rare when Baby Boomers were parents. So was breastfeeding, home birth, and large families. See now what I have against that generation? Oh, and they also embraced Vatican II. It was up to that generation to accept it or reject it. So many of them loved it or had no problems with it.

Interestingly, yes. My friend who has 12 children and we who have "only" 7 have discussed this privately. We have been on the receiving end of such incredibly generosity that it is really hard to discuss this, so please let me say, I know quite a few and they are amazing people: they have been role models for me and my husband.

But....the ones I know have 4 children pretty much across the board. My friend mentioned that her parents were always "different" because they had 6!

I know personally a couple today, NO still but fairly traditional, that purposely stopped at 4 and I know how they do it, because we talked about it.

So let me give some insight, if I may.

The Baby Boomer generation spans from those born around 1945 to 1965---maybe a few years on either end. There are a lot of factors involving this generation of men and women. I like to sometimes call these people the Professional Generation because not only did they go to college and become professionals, but they relied heavily on and trusted the opinions of the professionals over the opinions of their priests.

In the 1960s and 1970s doctors made no qualms about recommending sterilizations and hysterectomies to women after they had 2 to 4 children. There was this hysteria over the "population explosion" and eugenics was already put into practice secretly in many communities.

For Catholics, the Church waited a long time before addressing the birth control issue and even when it did, it was a luke warm condemnation at best. But the damage, so to speak, had already been done. A very many priests were already counseling their older parishioners that birth control was not necessarily bad because the Pope had said anything about it.

The women I know had hysterectomies in their early 30s because the Dr. said that it was necessary. They never really asked why is it necessary. In my mother's case (who is not a baby boomer but a silent generation), she was pushing 30 when I was born. The doctor told here it was harder for women to have babies in their thirties, the risk of a "deformed" baby was higher and if she wasn't having any more babies, she didn't really need a uterus or ovaries.

Interestingly, this coincided with women flooding the work force and having to leave their children with grandma. Given that the church waited so long to address birth control, the physician's advice, and a rise in women working outside the home, it is no wonder this happened. For many, I think 4 was alot then and they were glad when they started school and they could go to work.

I am not being critical, mind you. I know these couples and, yes, they say "I wish I could have had more, but I couldn't." But they did so enjoy there careers and prosperity.

So in many ways, I don't think it was necessarily intentional like these modern people today in their practice of NFP. They had children, expected to have children, but the people they trusted and believed gave them bad information and began steering them in a more worldly direction.

I will say this though, as wonderful as these Boomer couples are, they really don't relate to what we are going through today. The costs are exponentially higher in many places with car safety seat laws, auto inspections, mandatory this and that, CPS threats, nosy neighbors, a general suspicion of large, religious families, a disdain for one-income, traditional families, the average commute for going to work, the cost of groceries and gas. They are incredibly generous as a group, but sometimes very critical of why families are struggling financially.

Tiffany · « **Reply #20 on:** January 21, 2015, 07:57:23 AM »

Matthew it was the Traditionalist or Silent Generation that served in Korea. They grew up during the Depression/Dustbowl and I believe some postponed marriage to save for a home to make sure they had a place to live. These are the folks in their eighties now who wrap up the extra food on their plate from the church pot luck or Golden Corral.

Remember there was no $8,000 a year in food stamps, $5,000 cash from the Earned Income Credit, Medicaid for children and pregnancy healthcare cost, or WIC for large families then.

CathMomof7 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 21, 2015, 08:17:56 AM »

FWIW, I just need to share this. My husband and I sometimes feel like outcasts as traditional Catholics and we were definitely outcasts as NO Catholics.

As non-religious people we routinely used birth control. He never wanted any more after our first child and I was working and going to school, so it was easier for me. We used birth control. But our second son came along anyway.

When we converted in 1998, the discussion of having children NEVER came up in our RCIA class. EVER. I honestly did not know that a married couple could not use birth control. My husband didn't ask because again, it was easier for us.

There is a 5 year age difference between our number 2 and number 3 because we never planned on any more. Number 3 was a total miracle and honestly, the one child that changed our lives.

We became more involved and interested in the practice of our faith, but when we found a fairly traditional priest, we were counseled regarding NFP. In fact, they paid for our materials as I had just recently quit my job because we could not afford child care for three children.

Fortunately, after taking the class, I felt like a scientific experiment, unloved, and an object, so I began to question whether or not NFP was really a good thing. It certainly was a lot of work and their were many days where we intentionally abstained when neither of us wanted to only because we didn't want any more children. It weighed on me heavily and we abandoned the practice after two years.

After that, we had 4 more children each about 2 years apart.

It is VERY hard for me sometimes. I know we would have had more children if we had just believed they were God's gifts and just opened our hearts to receiving them. Since I had two children in my 40s, I suspect I was quite fertile and we probably would have had at least 3 more, maybe 4. But we didn't want it and we did everything to reject it.

As for being outcasts....upon my 5 pregnancy in NO, the whispers and gossip started. The stares, the questions, the criticism was too much.

When we came to SSPX I was pregnant with #7. The priest even commented that there were large age gaps between our children and waited for some explanation. Having "only" 7 seemed to be a mark of a lack of faith or something. No lay person really said anything, but we were occasionally asked if we married late or had fertility problems.

So while the world thinks we have some huge family, we don't.

We are, however, incredibly blessed and grateful to God for changing our hearts. Our children are amazing.

ggreg · « **Reply #22 on:** January 21, 2015, 09:15:24 AM »

"I honestly did not know that a married couple could not use birth control".

You never watched any stand-up comedians on TV or read the newspaper in the 1980s and 1990s about Pope John Paul II, condoms and Africa?

I'm surprised that anyone could fail to notice this. It's a bit like not knowing that Muslim ѕυιcιdє bombers or "martyrs" are reputed to get 72 Virgins in paradise. Surely everyone knows that right?

It's such a well publicized cliché about Catholics that I am puzzled how anyone could get through daily life and miss knowing this little factoid.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #23 on:** January 21, 2015, 10:50:04 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

But that doesn't change the fact that they "cheated" in a way by not having the full number of children when they were younger. If they are materially well off today, it's because A) times were just easier back then, and B) they had less children to support so they had a chance to build up more wealth.

.

"Baby Boomer" here.

In my late teens, having survived Hell on Earth, I attempted to formally "join" the Church, having been denied this as a child due to insanity I needn't go into. I had been to many pre V2 Masses and longed to receive Holy Communion. So, I went to a "priest" who told me absolutely NO; I was "too old" and it was "too late". He didn't care about my crying.

It was literally unthinkable at that time to suspect:

a. That a priest would lie or even be mistaken--simply not possible because they were the closest thing to Christ on this Earth.
b. a priest could be unchaste (I thought something spiritual happened to them that made it impossible)
c. priest could be a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ
d. religious were leaving in droves
e. Paul VI was a possible anti-pope (where I came from, when an answer was obvious, we all quipped, "Is the Pope Catholic?"
f. that any priest could possibly be ruining souls and entire families by molesting
g. that I even really deserved to be a Catholic

So, it was pretty devastating. I can't be the only one who was lied to, in fact I know I am not. My Holy Guardian Angel is the brilliant one, but that's a long story.

2Vermont · « **Reply #24 on:** January 21, 2015, 03:59:41 PM »

Quote from: ggreg

Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Matthew
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Matthew
I am NOT, I repeat NOT saying that they are hypocrites.

But that doesn't change the fact that they "cheated" in a way by not having the full number of children when they were younger. If they are materially well off today, it's because A) times were just easier back then, and B) they had less children to support so they had a chance to build up more wealth.

How do you know these things?

As for the rest, it makes me wonder where my husband and I fit into the Trad world given we're Johnny Come Latelies with no children and no particular wealth. I wonder what the parishioners at our chapel think of us.

I know these things because I've walked this earth for a while, and I've noticed a distinct trend among Baby Boomers, even the good Catholic ones, to have much smaller families than the "norm". I realize the "norm" varies, but you can see a drastic cutoff in the average number of children when you compare the Greatest Generation (WW2) and the Baby Boomers. Just look it up if you don't believe me.

I don't have to have inside knowledge to open my eyes and see things that are quite public.

I don't know WHY all the Baby Boomers have such small families -- maybe there was a REALLY effective NFP book, maybe there was something in the water -- that's all beside the point. All I'm saying is that they have small families. Nothing more.

If you want to narrow things down to personalities, and/or draw a judgment, sentence, condemnation, etc. from that, you're on your own.

Some people are cut out for abstract philosophical discussion, and some are not. I hate to say it, but many women are not. They tend to make everything personal and specific -- it's in their nature.

But actually the bolded isn't completely true. You're also stating that they "cheated" and that they didn't have the "full" number of children as if you know that God would have given them more children. You don't know what God wished to be their particular "full" number.

This isn't something personal since I am not one of the people you are discussing. I am trying to put myself in their shoes though and I wonder why you care so much what they did or did not do before coming to Tradition. It seems to bother you a lot that, in your opinion, they "cheated". Why?

Because cheating means not playing by the rules. And the rules are, and have always been, you don't contracept. Which, in the aggregate, they did. Otherwise the numbers, the statistical distribution, would be different.

You do know the number of children God would have given them, in the aggregate. It's called the Total Fertility Rate and has been declining for the last 100 years.

http://www.china-profile.com/data/fig_WPP2010_TFR_1.htm

Are you suggesting God might have decided to give a whole tranche of Practicing Catholics less children, while at the same time the world has gotten richer and the total fertility rate has dropped off a cliff?

Seems a little counterproductive to me. Be fruitful and multiply (until I decide to pour weed killer on some of you for no apparent or constructive purpose).

Forgive me, but I do not see how that graph tells me the number of babies God would have given them. I see the average US woman had 3.5 children in 1950. That certainly isn't support for numbers like 10-12.

As for God blessing us with less children, I happen to think that is a good topic for another thread. I wonder sometimes whether, knowing the end is near, that is in fact what God is allowing to happen.

CathMomof7 · « **Reply #25 on:** January 21, 2015, 08:06:53 PM »

Quote from: ggreg

"I honestly did not know that a married couple could not use birth control".

You never watched any stand-up comedians on TV or read the newspaper in the 1980s and 1990s about Pope John Paul II, condoms and Africa?

I'm surprised that anyone could fail to notice this. It's a bit like not knowing that Muslim ѕυιcιdє bombers or "martyrs" are reputed to get 72 Virgins in paradise. Surely everyone knows that right?

It's such a well publicized cliché about Catholics that I am puzzled how anyone could get through daily life and miss knowing this little factoid.

I did not know. The only Catholics I knew before my conversion used some sort of contraception. I knew some who were sterilized. They inferred that things had changed. You can be snarky all you want, but I believed contraception was permissible.

There are still people who believe this, in spite of late night television.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #26 on:** January 21, 2015, 10:11:37 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: Matthew
I am NOT, I repeat NOT saying that they are hypocrites.

But that doesn't change the fact that they "cheated" in a way by not having the full number of children when they were younger. If they are materially well off today, it's because A) times were just easier back then, and B) they had less children to support so they had a chance to build up more wealth.

How do you know these things?

As for the rest, it makes me wonder where my husband and I fit into the Trad world given we're Johnny Come Latelies with no children and no particular wealth. I wonder what the parishioners at our chapel think of us.

Pray the Holy Rosary every day. Say it with your husband. Ideally in front of a crucifix.

Go to Confession and frequent the Sacraments. Get your interior life in order and live a faithful Catholic lifestyle. Worry not what your fellow parishioner's think of you but ask yourself if they are right. Then, from there, focus on your weaknesses.

Pray daily.

clare · « **Reply #27 on:** January 22, 2015, 11:42:47 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

But that doesn't change the fact that they "cheated" in a way by not having the full number of children when they were younger.

This is what I find objectionable. The idea that it is a "fact" that "they cheated".

I daresay my parents don't count as baby-boomers, having been born in the '30s. But their children were born in the '60s and '70s. Three of us. They wanted six. God gave them three, and spaced us an average of five years apart. No cheating, and they had the full number of children allotted to them.

I'm aware of a family with six children, who were spaced using contraception! And another family of seven, each of whom was conceived while contraception was used. And here's a blog post by a lady who used to use contraception, detailing the types she was using for each of her children! So you can't assume that parents of big families don't use contraception, just in case we want to increase the number of people we can assume the worst about!

Matthew · « **Reply #28 on:** January 22, 2015, 12:02:05 PM »

Quote from: clare

Quote from: Matthew
But that doesn't change the fact that they "cheated" in a way by not having the full number of children when they were younger.

This is what I find objectionable. The idea that it is a "fact" that "they cheated".

I daresay my parents don't count as baby-boomers, having been born in the '30s. But their children were born in the '60s and '70s. Three of us. They wanted six. God gave them three, and spaced us an average of five years apart. No cheating, and they had the full number of children allotted to them.

I'm aware of a family with six children, who were spaced using contraception! And another family of seven, each of whom was conceived while contraception was used. And here's a blog post by a lady who used to use contraception, detailing the types she was using for each of her children! So you can't assume that parents of big families don't use contraception, just in case we want to increase the number of people we can assume the worst about!

I'm saying "they" cheated, which I define as "the baby boomer generation". The "they" pronoun doesn't apply to any person in particular.

I believe it's against the Catholic Faith (the virtue of charity, as well as justice) to rashly judge individuals.

I'm judging and blaming a GENERATION, for which there is plenty of evidence. This isn't about individuals. It's called philosophizing and talking about the big picture. Macro-social trends, if you will.

So your attempts to "excuse" this or that couple is a wasted effort. You're attempting to block a bullet that was never fired.

Like I said before, I don't know if they used NFP, abstinence, something in the water, or birth control. All I know is that Baby Boomers rarely had more than 4 children. I'm one of those children -- I know how many of my peers come from big families. Virtually none.

Matthew · « **Reply #29 on:** January 22, 2015, 12:14:09 PM »

Quote from: CathMomof7

As for being outcasts....upon my 5 pregnancy in NO, the whispers and gossip started. The stares, the questions, the criticism was too much.

When we came to SSPX I was pregnant with #7. The priest even commented that there were large age gaps between our children and waited for some explanation. Having "only" 7 seemed to be a mark of a lack of faith or something. No lay person really said anything, but we were occasionally asked if we married late or had fertility problems.

Now this I don't understand. Well, I do understand it -- more Pharisaic behavior.

What's to explain in such a case? The fact that you have the latter children in quite "regular" intervals suggests a repentance/fixing up of the situation does it not?

I would respond flatly, "No, we used birth control. But I confessed that sin and amended my life years ago. Did you notice my youngest 4 are 2 years apart? Oh no, don't tell me that Birth Control is the mythical sin that can't be forgiven! I thought all sins could be forgiven if we repent and have recourse to the sacrament of Penance that Christ instituted for us poor sinners. Oh well, I guess we all can't be Without Sin as you obviously must be..."

You'd make those people feel so small, they'd want to crawl into the nearest hole and disappear.

Seriously, from the greatest to the least of them, they don't have a leg to stand on. However "nosy" it is to butt into a couple's private life and rash judge why they don't have "enough" children, it's even worse when you have EVIDENCE that the problem has been rectified.

What are they implying, that there's no forgiveness of sins? Ridiculous and un-Catholic.

Some people are such piss-poor specimens of Catholicism that they can't feel good about themselves unless they're tearing others down. These same lame-excuses-for-human-beings would probably judge harshly a couple married for 5 years with a 6 year old in tow. Hello, they got married! They probably confessed their sin. What more do you want?

These are the same kinds of people who automatically "do the math" when a young couple, or a recently married couple, announces a pregnancy.

Atheists and unbelievers have more human decency than these hypocritical Trads. Fortunately, I think these horrible human beings are rare. But they do exist.