Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural  (Read 2889 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2022, 11:48:29 AM »
I've been struggling to compose a reply to this thread, because there is one thing LT has right (although in his typical fashion he isn't expressing it clearly): online interactions are relatively impersonal compared to 'real life' interactions, and as a result when online interactions go awry I think the risk for decorum to devolve is higher. I think that much is nothing new-- it's a characteristic of trad forums dating back as long as I can remember.

I also think that forums tend to attract people who have fewer opportunities for ('irl') fulfilling relationships with other good Catholics. Ask anyone what they get out of forums, and part of the answer will be solidarity. It's hard, to say the least, to go through life without Catholic friends. The Church is a temporal (although not only temporal) society, after all. Anyways, the point is that forum user bases already tend to be populated at least in part by people who don't have Catholic social lives, and that can compound the risk of vitriol. By the way, I acknowledge everything Matthew said as true, and don't mean to imply anyone is 'guilty' of having few Catholic friends.

But even with all this said, forums are by no means 'unnatural.' In principle it's just like letter writing-- where ideas tend to reign over rhetoric, anecdotes, and other personalized or otherwise less logical ways of communicating. And that is precisely their strength--at least theoretically, supposing that passions are controlled and those involved are willing to put in the work to THINK rather than intuit through issues. 

Which kind of brings me to 'the point', as far as you go, LT. It sounds like your problem with forums is that whatever rhetoric and intuition you use in your daily life to convince people of a, b, or c just doesn't work on forums. Because it isn't intellectual. And by 'not intellectual' I don't mean 'stupid,' I mean it literally: it has nothing to do with anything that can be grasped by THE MIND. There's been a debate (if we can call it that) for something like two weeks now that literally hasn't gone past square one because you constantly repeat the same claims based on some close-to-inexplicable combination of projection, family history, and intuitive experience. It's so messy you can't even explain it well yourself, and I don't think even you know how to argue for or explain your claims. So you just draw the conclusion that it's everybody else's fault for not believing you, as well as the Internet's fault in general for being a platform that doesn't allow you to channel whatever rhetoric you normally find effective in your daily life. 

That's what it seems like to me-- I can't really find another explanation for the way things have gone, though if anyone has one I'm all ears. 

Long story shorter: you've got a point but the point isn't all that relevant to the exchanges of recent memory. 

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2022, 11:59:24 AM »
Well put, Mithrandylan.  A poor analogy but one nonetheless:  there are some brilliant mechanics out there that can pinpoint all kinds of issues by looking at the car and talking to the owner for 10 minutes.  But if you asked them to explain their method in writing or give a lecture, they'd struggle.  Writing or lecturing isn't the problem; it's just that there are different types of intelligence in different types of people.  Some learn by study, others by experience, others by both.  Some are good at explaining/teaching to the general public (formally, based on principles); some are better at explaining/teaching things to a specific person (informal, interpersonal).  Everyone has limits.


Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2022, 12:05:18 PM »
Well put, Mithrandylan.  A poor analogy but one nonetheless:  there are some brilliant mechanics out there that can pinpoint all kinds of issues by looking at the car and talking to the owner for 10 minutes.  But if you asked them to explain their method in writing or give a lecture, they'd struggle.  Writing or lecturing isn't the problem; it's just that there are different types of intelligence in different types of people.  Some learn by study, others by experience, others by both.  Some are good at explaining/teaching to the general public (formally, based on principles); some are better at explaining/teaching things to a specific person (informal, interpersonal).  Everyone has limits.
Very much agreed. I am much more proficient at expressing my thought through writing than I am through speech. My mind races faster than my mouth can form the words, in a way. Which is great for forums, but not so great in face-to-face interactions.

Edit:
1. We need to socialize with Trad Catholics, not novus ordo or heretics. Many of us have no options as far as local Trads -- even if you attend your closest SSPX (or equivalent) chapel, there are often *no friend options* for various reasons. We didn't have many friends at church *before* we left the SSPX. And San Antonio is in the top 10 cities in the United States! And we were extremely friendly, staying after Mass in the "coffee & donuts hall" for 1+ hour every Sunday. Very few stayed after, however. That shows the role of religion and Tradition in their lives.
I'd be one of those who doesn't stick around for socializing, mostly because I really don't care much for chatting and small talk. I can't speak for that chapel, but I know mine has a good parish life to it as a SSPX chapel. 

Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2022, 06:53:22 PM »
Well put, Mithrandylan.  A poor analogy but one nonetheless:  there are some brilliant mechanics out there that can pinpoint all kinds of issues by looking at the car and talking to the owner for 10 minutes.  But if you asked them to explain their method in writing or give a lecture, they'd struggle.  Writing or lecturing isn't the problem; it's just that there are different types of intelligence in different types of people.  Some learn by study, others by experience, others by both.  Some are good at explaining/teaching to the general public (formally, based on principles); some are better at explaining/teaching things to a specific person (informal, interpersonal).  Everyone has limits.
Not a bad explanation. It is what I have been telling you, that we think differently. Nevertheless, it can be worked out as long as people discuss it through to figure it out. For all of my working days and still today, I was an "interpreter" between engineers and salesmen. The two can't stand each other and it is because the two think differently. I can see that the majority of the readers understand my "style" of writing and my reasoning.

I learned cousin of mine, that brought me back to the faith, once gave me once some books to read. He asked me what I thought of one of them, and I said it went in one ear and out the other. He said that is because it is not a good writer, that a good writer gets through to everyone. Fr. Martin Von Cochem wrote a few books in the 1600's that have been translated to English, I think he is the perfect example of a writer that communicates to everyone. His style is that you do not realize it but he says the same thing in like four or more ways. The floor sweep  up to the "rocket scientist" and everyone in between can understand the points.

It is just a matter of working it out .

Now in the case of Mark79, Epiphany, and Digital Logos to a lessor degree, there is nothing for me to discuss, I no longer bother to read anything they write, I just skip over them. If we were face to face in real life, I would never have even directed the first word to them, but in the internet, I could not see them. 

Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2022, 07:00:27 PM »
one does not have clue whom they are conversing with, they do not see them, do not know what they look like or how they live.
Sure, >90% of communication is non-verbal, the internet is purely verbal, and those arguing on it have little to no logic skills; but that doesn't mean it's unnatural. Communication is natural for humans.
Also, how does what a person looks like and how he lives affect the validity of a logical argument?