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Author Topic: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural  (Read 2378 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
« on: March 19, 2022, 01:38:48 PM »
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  • Internet forums are not an efficient medium for debating politics and religion, because it is not really natural.

    In the first place, one does not have clue whom they are conversing with, they do not see them, do not know what they look like or how they live. In the real world, who in their right mind would ever walk up to a complete stranger and start a debate on politics and religion with them? Moreover, do it with a stranger that looks dangerous or looks like they have nothing in common with them? It really is somewhat insane. Sure, on CI one figures they are talking with someone like them, a so-called trad Catholic, but what about the rest "one does not have clue whom they are conversing with, they do not see them, do not know what they look like, or how they live"?

    For another, in real life it would not take weeks to get something across to someone because you are right in front of them seeing them and talking to them. On the internet, just when you think you've made your point to everyone reading it and the people understand, and you leave for a week and the instant you leave, someone that does not like what you said, starts writing conjectures and extrapolating from those conjectures, and when you come back it is as if you wrote nothing, everything you wrote is hidden pages in the past as if you never wrote it.

    Maybe it is just me because I was a jock in school and this is a geek thing, but in real life no man in his right mind would say the things men regularly say here to other men as if it were nothing. Insults that had they used them in real life upon first setting their feet out in the neighborhood at like the age of 5, would have received a beating. Men learn early on that one does not talk like that to other men, or they will end up in a fight. The internet geeks, I guess because they are anonymous and nobody can come after them, become despots, insulting everyone like no man in their right mind would do in the real world. They become like the Wizard of Oz,  a despot on the screen. 

    For another, it is not natural for a man to have to put up with abuse like that, especially a man that does not put up with it from anyone no matter the title or the size. I think that women can do better, since they are more accustomed to "holding it in", but it still is not natural even for them.

    In the movie The Quiet Man, in one of the Irish bar scenes, John Wayne said that one does not discuss women in bars, and two other subjects (I do not remember if it was in that movie or not) were politics and religion. The three subjects were not discussed because they tended to end in fisticuffs, which is natural for men. Well, what is discussed here on CI? Religion and politics, but we have an unnatural environment where even a little coward of a man can say anything and feel safe. Not a good situation.

    For all of the above reasons, I think it is not for me. So, with that I will go back to my Lent absence from CI and ponder on all of this.



    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
    « Reply #1 on: March 19, 2022, 01:43:49 PM »
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  • …someone that does not like what you said, starts writing conjectures and extrapolating from those conjectures…

    Oh, the clueless irony.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
    « Reply #2 on: March 19, 2022, 02:11:23 PM »
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  • So we're all internet nerds because we communicate on an online forum? What next, we're all living in our mommy's basements too?

    Go nurse your wounded pride.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
    « Reply #3 on: March 19, 2022, 02:54:48 PM »
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  • Well, unfortunately, it's what we have.  Most of us don't have Traditional Catholics who live within 30 miles of us, and most of those who show up at our chapels you can't really have an intelligent conversation with (at least at mine).

    Offline Donachie

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    Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
    « Reply #4 on: March 19, 2022, 03:12:48 PM »
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  • My fellow Americans, do you not believe that everybody is equal and everybody has to be somewhere, even by nature or art? I think that settles the question. Thank you very much.

    "Now what's Morgan, Baruch, Rockefeller and the Rothchildistan Jews and Covidland (((Big Pharma))) gonna do with all that grub? They can't eat it. They can't wear the clothes. They can't live in the houses. Give'em a yacht. Send'em to Reno or Las Vegas when they want a new wife if that's what they want when they want it ..."


    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
    « Reply #5 on: March 19, 2022, 03:39:12 PM »
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  • Internet forums are not an efficient medium for debating politics and religion, because it is not really natural.

    In the first place, one does not have clue whom they are conversing with, they do not see them, do not know what they look like or how they live. In the real world, who in their right mind would ever walk up to a complete stranger and start a debate on politics and religion with them? Moreover, do it with a stranger that looks dangerous or looks like they have nothing in common with them? It really is somewhat insane. Sure, on CI one figures they are talking with someone like them, a so-called trad Catholic, but what about the rest "one does not have clue whom they are conversing with, they do not see them, do not know what they look like, or how they live"?

    For another, in real life it would not take weeks to get something across to someone because you are right in front of them seeing them and talking to them. On the internet, just when you think you've made your point to everyone reading it and the people understand, and you leave for a week and the instant you leave, someone that does not like what you said, starts writing conjectures and extrapolating from those conjectures, and when you come back it is as if you wrote nothing, everything you wrote is hidden pages in the past as if you never wrote it.

    Maybe it is just me because I was a jock in school and this is a geek thing, but in real life no man in his right mind would say the things men regularly say here to other men as if it were nothing. Insults that had they used them in real life upon first setting their feet out in the neighborhood at like the age of 5, would have received a beating. Men learn early on that one does not talk like that to other men, or they will end up in a fight. The internet geeks, I guess because they are anonymous and nobody can come after them, become despots, insulting everyone like no man in their right mind would do in the real world. They become like the Wizard of Oz,  a despot on the screen. 

    For another, it is not natural for a man to have to put up with abuse like that, especially a man that does not put up with it from anyone no matter the title or the size. I think that women can do better, since they are more accustomed to "holding it in", but it still is not natural even for them.

    In the movie The Quiet Man, in one of the Irish bar scenes, John Wayne said that one does not discuss women in bars, and two other subjects (I do not remember if it was in that movie or not) were politics and religion. The three subjects were not discussed because they tended to end in fisticuffs, which is natural for men. Well, what is discussed here on CI? Religion and politics, but we have an unnatural environment where even a little coward of a man can say anything and feel safe. Not a good situation.

    For all of the above reasons, I think it is not for me. So, with that I will go back to my Lent absence from CI and ponder on all of this.

    "Internet forums are not an efficient medium for debating politics and religion, because it is not really natural."
    Then get off the internet.

    "no man in his right mind would say the things men regularly say here to other men as if it were nothing."
    Darn right!  Why do you do it?

    "one does not discuss women in bars, and two other subjects"
    One does not discuss female **********, among other things, either.

    " I think it is not for me."
    I couldn't agree more.

    Offline Donachie

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    Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
    « Reply #6 on: March 19, 2022, 04:33:37 PM »
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  • Everything's in virtue of something. This is in virtue of that and so forth. 

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
    « Reply #7 on: March 20, 2022, 12:59:40 AM »
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  • Well, unfortunately, it's what we have.  Most of us don't have Traditional Catholics who live within 30 miles of us, and most of those who show up at our chapels you can't really have an intelligent conversation with (at least at mine).

    Well said.

    First of all, I'm going to take it as a given that serious Catholics should only seriously intermingle and socialize with those of the Faith. By that I mean close friendships, serious discussions, and courtship. Today, that means Trad Catholics. Those attending the Novus Ordo are, as often as not, de-facto Protestant in their beliefs, culture, and habits.

    So let's not pretend that those socializing on CathInfo are a bunch of twisted misfits, some serious nerds who SHOULD be socializing with the hundreds of "real live human beings" at their local Parish, but instead choose to go into their basement, geek out on one of those new-fangled "computers" that less than 1/4 of 1% of people own, and connect to online communities that are equally exclusive. That would indeed be the height of geekdom, dysfunction, and social awkwardness.

    Three problems I have with the OP's argument:

    1. We need to socialize with Trad Catholics, not novus ordo or heretics. Many of us have no options as far as local Trads -- even if you attend your closest SSPX (or equivalent) chapel, there are often *no friend options* for various reasons. We didn't have many friends at church *before* we left the SSPX. And San Antonio is in the top 10 cities in the United States! And we were extremely friendly, staying after Mass in the "coffee & donuts hall" for 1+ hour every Sunday. Very few stayed after, however. That shows the role of religion and Tradition in their lives.

    2. The Internet is quite mainstream now. Ditto for computers/smartphones. It's not just horn-rimmed-glasses-with-tape-in-the-middle geeks who use the Internet now. Last Tradhican, are you stuck in 1995?

    3. Not everyone chooses to go round-and-round about controversial topics. There are plenty of topics that *won't* start WW3 that you can start, continue, and discuss to your heart's content with zero stress. If you're looking for low-stress, you will NOT be pulled or compelled to argue about sedevacantism. Pro- and Anti- Sede zealots can handle themselves; they THRIVE on the conflict and excitement generated in the course of their discussions. For them, it fires the blood. You're either in that group, or you want low-stress. And if that's TRUE, then you WILL happen to avoid such hot topics. You can't have it both ways. You either enjoy controversy, hot topics, and vigorous arguments, or you don't.

    In other words, don't dish it if you can't take it. If someone starts a thread shouting their opinion to the world, "I think Sedevacantists are lousy schismatics" they can't be surprised and clutch their pearls when a big fight ensues. They obviously KNEW that was going to happen. No one is that stupid.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
    « Reply #8 on: March 20, 2022, 04:33:11 AM »
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  • Quote
    were you a serial Peeping Tom?
     
     Of course, there is another possibility…
    You lied that you have "experience," simply did the Meg thing, presumed you know the interior forum and project acts about which you could only perversely know or imagine, and are just what we know you to be—a rabid blowhard perverted bullsh*tter.
     
     Your own statement reveals that you are a
    seriously disordered person—sɛҳuąƖly and spiritually—who foams and perversely ruminates about and projects the sɛҳuąƖ sins of others. It seems that your stated sɛҳuąƖ past is reflected in your present disorder.
     
    Totally disgusting.


    You project your "leg spreader" life before 40 on others as Meg projects her home life on others.
    You rage about the imagined sɛҳuąƖ proclivities of others while boasting of your "functionality" and younger wife.
    You and Meg pretend you can read the interior forum of others even though you stated you can "know nothing about them."
    You are thankful for your family, but you and Meg defecated on the thankfulness of others for their families.
    You are seriously disordered spiritually and sɛҳuąƖly.

    Ok, Matthew, in the spirit of "You either enjoy controversy, hot topics, and vigorous arguments, or you don't. In other words, don't dish it if you can't take it," I have always discussed what is important to our salvation in my opinion and so I will live with the fact that I will be stepping on certain people's toys that they do not want to give up.

    Above is quote by Mark79 is a good example, so I will take it on. If you accept people talking to you like that on the internet as par for the course, then I can too.  So here I go:


    The writer of the above, Mark79, is a perfect example of what everyone should avoid if they want to grow in the faith and be successful in life. He is filled with so much hate of himself and envy of others that he only sees the fly in the dining room filled with sumptuous food. People like that are the types that make it almost impossible for a black man to get out of their poverty, for anyone that tries to improve themselves will be denigrated and ostracized by these envious types and called uncle toms and such. This is what the Clarence Kelly's, Thomas Sowells, and Alan Keyes had to overcome. Only a tremendous drive and incredible strong man can overcome that envy crowd and escape that ghetto. The envious drag down the average man and pulverize him to dust. They are a walking black cloud, they take it with them everywhere they go.

    I gave my Catholic bio of which like I said, I am proud of, and the above is one response I get and then the envious black clouds start in on the age of my wife, who is 22 years younger than me. These black cloud types are just about finding and complaining about the fly in everything, they would find a fly in a gold mine.

    The best thing to do with these types is to avoid them like the plague and do not give them any forum, do not respond to them at all. That is what I have been doing lately once a figured out what they are like. The posting above was posted four times by Mark79 because I do not respond to it.

    But let's leave that ghetto behind for there is nothing one can say or do for them, they are what they are.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
    « Reply #9 on: March 20, 2022, 04:41:26 AM »
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  • One can go here  at this posting  Re: Oxymoron - Catholics for Recreational Use of Marijuana  Reply #93 on: March 18, 2022, 11:51:31 AM,  and read my Catholic bio if I explain something here that appears out of the thin air.

    My family history dates way back, we have always been entrepreneurs, makers of work for others. In South America, it is not easy to find work, so one has to invent it to put food on the table. My grandfather was one of 8 children and about 1905 when he was about 16, some epidemic swept through our country I guess, and both his parents and 4 of his siblings died within the same year. My grandfather was left as the oldest survivor to raise his 3 younger siblings when he was 16. When he died at almost 101 years of age his 3 siblings were still alive, they were all like 95 to 98 and in good health. They must have been bullet proof. Pretty amazing. My grandfather was their father till he married them all off. In 1930 my grandfather was out of work because of the depression, and by God's grace, he found a job as a bookkeeper at a giant sugar mill company. He went to school at night and got his accounting degree. By the late 1940's my grandfather was the CEO of the company, with 5000 employees under his care. He was the highest paid executive in our country, at that time making $125,000 dollars. Adjusted for inflation that would be today from $2.5 to over $6 million dollars.  My father did the same with his own company and had 2000 employees. In 1960, EVERYTHING, every penny was taken by the communists, and we came to USA with nothing, to start all over again. My grandfather was 70 and my dad was 40. They went  straight to work and by 1970 we were living a comfortable life again, with a waterfront home on the bay and leisure time to think. I learned everything I know about success in everything from them.

    What was the secret of their success despite losing everything so many times (my grandfather's family lost everything ones, before they made it back, then they died)? The secret was that they emulated the successful and learned from them. They sought out people who were successful and they never stopped at it, improving themselves every day of their lives. You learn something every day. One must always seek perfection and keep growing in their knowledge base for they could lose it all one day and have to do it all over again. Grow in knowledge in every aspect of life, money, health, and most of all the faith. Unfortunately, they did not give the faith much importance, as practically all Catholics do not give the faith much more than baptizing, marrying, and burying in the  in Church.

    For the faith, I had to do it myself and I did it the same way as I was taught for business and health, by emulating those that were a success at it. I could write many stories of the people I emulated because they were many, but I will just mention two:

    The first was a lady in his late 80's. She was a lady, an Italian American Southern Bell (odd combination, no?) with the accent of a Southern pre-cινιℓ ωαr aristocrat plantation owner. She was  a middle class lady, her husband worked as a mechanic in an airline, but he had died before I first met her. She was always talking about  the great life she had as a child growing up with her other 13 siblings. I always liked to talk to older people to learn from them and I was very adept at getting them to talk for hours. It is easy to do when you are genuinely fascinated with everything they say. We'll from this lady, I learned what marriage was for. You see, my concept of marriage was that of my parents, that it is for life, and the idea of being with all the girls I was with for life didn't even enter my mind. The thought of marrying never entered my mind. Amazing as it seems, I learned what marriage was for, it was to raise a big happy Catholic family. Three years later my  wife walked into the SSPX chapel I was attending and she had the same mind as I to have 12 children. We married when she was 25 and I was 47. One might ask how it was possible that a man 47 could convince a beautiful girl 25 to marry him, well the answer is that the man was young at heart, not set in his way, ready to learn something everyday, loved children, and by the grace of God,  good genes and physical exercise  didn't look or act 47.

    The other lady that influenced me, was a mother of 12. Everybody said she was too strict, but I saw different. Her husband was the happy humorous lover of life, walking sunshine, while she was the teacher of the faith. I saw in her right away someone to emulate, and my wife and I became very close with that family. That so-called "too strict" lady's 12 children are all now either priests (the men) or have beautiful trad wives with many, and the girls all married successful professional men.  All with many children and more on the way. That "too strict" lady is the good ground upon which the seed fell and multiplied one hundred fold. There was one grand example to follow and we were there as it unfolded learning how it is done.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
    « Reply #10 on: March 20, 2022, 11:48:29 AM »
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  • I've been struggling to compose a reply to this thread, because there is one thing LT has right (although in his typical fashion he isn't expressing it clearly): online interactions are relatively impersonal compared to 'real life' interactions, and as a result when online interactions go awry I think the risk for decorum to devolve is higher. I think that much is nothing new-- it's a characteristic of trad forums dating back as long as I can remember.

    I also think that forums tend to attract people who have fewer opportunities for ('irl') fulfilling relationships with other good Catholics. Ask anyone what they get out of forums, and part of the answer will be solidarity. It's hard, to say the least, to go through life without Catholic friends. The Church is a temporal (although not only temporal) society, after all. Anyways, the point is that forum user bases already tend to be populated at least in part by people who don't have Catholic social lives, and that can compound the risk of vitriol. By the way, I acknowledge everything Matthew said as true, and don't mean to imply anyone is 'guilty' of having few Catholic friends.

    But even with all this said, forums are by no means 'unnatural.' In principle it's just like letter writing-- where ideas tend to reign over rhetoric, anecdotes, and other personalized or otherwise less logical ways of communicating. And that is precisely their strength--at least theoretically, supposing that passions are controlled and those involved are willing to put in the work to THINK rather than intuit through issues. 

    Which kind of brings me to 'the point', as far as you go, LT. It sounds like your problem with forums is that whatever rhetoric and intuition you use in your daily life to convince people of a, b, or c just doesn't work on forums. Because it isn't intellectual. And by 'not intellectual' I don't mean 'stupid,' I mean it literally: it has nothing to do with anything that can be grasped by THE MIND. There's been a debate (if we can call it that) for something like two weeks now that literally hasn't gone past square one because you constantly repeat the same claims based on some close-to-inexplicable combination of projection, family history, and intuitive experience. It's so messy you can't even explain it well yourself, and I don't think even you know how to argue for or explain your claims. So you just draw the conclusion that it's everybody else's fault for not believing you, as well as the Internet's fault in general for being a platform that doesn't allow you to channel whatever rhetoric you normally find effective in your daily life. 

    That's what it seems like to me-- I can't really find another explanation for the way things have gone, though if anyone has one I'm all ears. 

    Long story shorter: you've got a point but the point isn't all that relevant to the exchanges of recent memory. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
    « Reply #11 on: March 20, 2022, 11:59:24 AM »
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  • Well put, Mithrandylan.  A poor analogy but one nonetheless:  there are some brilliant mechanics out there that can pinpoint all kinds of issues by looking at the car and talking to the owner for 10 minutes.  But if you asked them to explain their method in writing or give a lecture, they'd struggle.  Writing or lecturing isn't the problem; it's just that there are different types of intelligence in different types of people.  Some learn by study, others by experience, others by both.  Some are good at explaining/teaching to the general public (formally, based on principles); some are better at explaining/teaching things to a specific person (informal, interpersonal).  Everyone has limits.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
    « Reply #12 on: March 20, 2022, 12:05:18 PM »
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  • Well put, Mithrandylan.  A poor analogy but one nonetheless:  there are some brilliant mechanics out there that can pinpoint all kinds of issues by looking at the car and talking to the owner for 10 minutes.  But if you asked them to explain their method in writing or give a lecture, they'd struggle.  Writing or lecturing isn't the problem; it's just that there are different types of intelligence in different types of people.  Some learn by study, others by experience, others by both.  Some are good at explaining/teaching to the general public (formally, based on principles); some are better at explaining/teaching things to a specific person (informal, interpersonal).  Everyone has limits.
    Very much agreed. I am much more proficient at expressing my thought through writing than I am through speech. My mind races faster than my mouth can form the words, in a way. Which is great for forums, but not so great in face-to-face interactions.

    Edit:
    1. We need to socialize with Trad Catholics, not novus ordo or heretics. Many of us have no options as far as local Trads -- even if you attend your closest SSPX (or equivalent) chapel, there are often *no friend options* for various reasons. We didn't have many friends at church *before* we left the SSPX. And San Antonio is in the top 10 cities in the United States! And we were extremely friendly, staying after Mass in the "coffee & donuts hall" for 1+ hour every Sunday. Very few stayed after, however. That shows the role of religion and Tradition in their lives.
    I'd be one of those who doesn't stick around for socializing, mostly because I really don't care much for chatting and small talk. I can't speak for that chapel, but I know mine has a good parish life to it as a SSPX chapel. 
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
    « Reply #13 on: March 20, 2022, 06:53:22 PM »
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  • Well put, Mithrandylan.  A poor analogy but one nonetheless:  there are some brilliant mechanics out there that can pinpoint all kinds of issues by looking at the car and talking to the owner for 10 minutes.  But if you asked them to explain their method in writing or give a lecture, they'd struggle.  Writing or lecturing isn't the problem; it's just that there are different types of intelligence in different types of people.  Some learn by study, others by experience, others by both.  Some are good at explaining/teaching to the general public (formally, based on principles); some are better at explaining/teaching things to a specific person (informal, interpersonal).  Everyone has limits.
    Not a bad explanation. It is what I have been telling you, that we think differently. Nevertheless, it can be worked out as long as people discuss it through to figure it out. For all of my working days and still today, I was an "interpreter" between engineers and salesmen. The two can't stand each other and it is because the two think differently. I can see that the majority of the readers understand my "style" of writing and my reasoning.

    I learned cousin of mine, that brought me back to the faith, once gave me once some books to read. He asked me what I thought of one of them, and I said it went in one ear and out the other. He said that is because it is not a good writer, that a good writer gets through to everyone. Fr. Martin Von Cochem wrote a few books in the 1600's that have been translated to English, I think he is the perfect example of a writer that communicates to everyone. His style is that you do not realize it but he says the same thing in like four or more ways. The floor sweep  up to the "rocket scientist" and everyone in between can understand the points.

    It is just a matter of working it out .

    Now in the case of Mark79, Epiphany, and Digital Logos to a lessor degree, there is nothing for me to discuss, I no longer bother to read anything they write, I just skip over them. If we were face to face in real life, I would never have even directed the first word to them, but in the internet, I could not see them. 

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Arguing on the Internet is not Natural
    « Reply #14 on: March 20, 2022, 07:00:27 PM »
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  • one does not have clue whom they are conversing with, they do not see them, do not know what they look like or how they live.
    Sure, >90% of communication is non-verbal, the internet is purely verbal, and those arguing on it have little to no logic skills; but that doesn't mean it's unnatural. Communication is natural for humans.
    Also, how does what a person looks like and how he lives affect the validity of a logical argument?
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